WandaVision 2: Sitcoms and Superheroes and Spoilers too

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Mr Gordo said:

SPOILERS SPOILERS PROBABLY MAYBE I DUNNO

I've never even heard of that character, so not too exciting for me.

[JGP]

@DMC Ok, I see it. Thanks. Adds credence to the general criticism from my writing group that I'm not good at front loading thought, or story. That didn't help advance my argument, and definitely tainted further clarification.

---

Ross' former military golf swing toward a change of heart aside, I'll drop that [the Accords] but if the argument is ultimately intent, then Wanda's state of mind definitely comes into play.     

 

 

[JGP]

14 minutes ago, DMC said:

I've never even heard of that character, so not too exciting for me.

Spoiler

Wiccan's boyfriend - now husband. Wiccan is Billy, one of the twins. In comic lore, anyway. 

Spoiler

Makes more sense Hulkling got cast for Secret Invasion, being a Skrull prince and all

edit: I suppose I should spoiler that, and this

[DMC]

11 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

but if the argument is ultimately intent, then Wanda's state of mind definitely comes into play.     

That's true, and is being emphasized with Monica's rationale for still wanting to help Wanda.

[JGP]

Right. So you can walk it out, but it gets handwaved when the idea gets floated that there may be no big bad except Wanda.

Monica: it's all her, it's all Wanda... :p

Like, it could be. 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

Right. So you can walk it out, but it gets handwaved when the idea that there may be no big bad except Wanda 

I'm not handwaving it, I just don't think it fits if they're setting her up to be one of the main "good" heroes of phase four - which I think they are.  No one's ever gone full heel like that and come back in any marvel-affiliated films that I can think of.  The obvious comparison would be Jean Grey, but even then.  The first time when she went bad she stayed bad until Wolverine killed her - and her asking him to.  In the Sophie Turner iteration, she is being manipulated by Xavier, a cosmic force, and alien Jessica Chastain.

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/12/2021 at 5:49 PM, Mr Gordo said:

Lots of talk on the net about how all of QS lines about demon spawn and hell point to him being Mephisto or Mephisto adjacent.

Oh, and the kids, in the comics they end up being real because of a deal Wanda makes with Mephisto I think.

Yes, of course it may also be playing up to the comic book fans who know the Wanda Vision storylines from the comics.  But there is another possibility one that also borrows heavily from Avengers comic lore, even if that lore didn't directly affect Wanda and the Vision.

It's been widely reported that Kang the Conqueror is slated to be the next major villain for Marvel Phase Four.  So what better time to introduce him, then in the first show (outside of Spider-Man) directly dealing with Marvel Phase Four.

For those not in the know, Kang is a time traveling conqueror.  In alternate realities he becomes other time traveling villains, primarily Immortus, the keeper of Limbo a place outside of time.  In the comics, Kang is probably considered the Avengers' primary antagonist, with Ultron as a close second.

Time has been one of the big themes in WandaVision.  If you listen closely it comes up again and again both the Vision and Wanda talk about needing more time.  Some of the websites have caught on that the major characters all wear wristwatches that change as they go through their different eras.

And speaking of eras, it's another thing that links this show to time travel.  Wanda and the Vision travel through time periods, from the 50's to 60's to 70's to 80's and now the 90's.  

And then we have a couple instances of Wands seemingly reversing time when an event happens that displeases her.  The primary one that comes to mind is the "beekeeper"  who comes out of the sewer.  Wanda rewinds the event to redo the scene sans beekeeper.  

And of course we have Wanda's accelerated pregnancy and the sudden aging up of her children.

It's possible that there may be more than just the mind stone at work, but the time stone as well.  Which would line up nicely with Wanda's next appearance in the Doctor Strange franchise where the time stone was first introduced.  

Then we have Quicksliver, a character not only apparently plucked out of a different dimension, but also a different time period as well.  If of course this is the actual "Fox" Quicksilver.  

Which brings me to another interesting possibility.  In the comics, Kang as Immortus, had a shape shifting alien henchmen by the name of Space Phantom, who used his shape shifting powers to try to sow dissension in the Avengers ranks.  Now if you are wondering about that strange haircut that Quicksilver sported during Halloween, that's obviously the haircut he had in the comics, but it's not the only time that Marvel super artist Jack Kirby gave a character that ridiculous haircut.  That's also the exact haircut that the Space Phantom sported when he clashed with the Avengers.  So I do wonder, if Kang is involved, is Quicksilver a shape shifting agent being used by Kang?

But finally, this is the possible deal sealer (or perhaps deal breaker) for me.  If indeed Kang or his alias Immortus is involved as a background antagonist, then Marvel Studios isn't just referencing the Scarlet Witch Vision storylines for this show.  Intriguingly (perhaps I should say disturbingly) they may also be referencing the most infamous, maybe despised storyline in the history of the Avengers:

Spoiler

Avengers #200:

In Avengers 200 it is revealed that Immortus, decided he needed to be reborn in the timeline.  So he reached out and basically abducted Carol Danvers (Captain Marvel, then known as Ms Marvel).  He brought her to Limbo in a manufactured reality, wined and dined her, and then seduced her, ultimately getting her pregnant.  Then he returned her to the exact moment in time that he plucked her from with no memory of the events.  

She suddenly finds herself pregnant, and the pregnancy proceeds to full term in just a few days (sounds familiar?).  She then gives birth and her son ages rapidly as well and within a few days becomes a grown adult exactly resembling the secret father. 

And then is when things went off the rails pretty badly.  Carol Danvers finds that she has feelings for her son, err former kidnaper/rapist, and decides to go back to Limbo with him.  All the Avengers basically stand around and wish her good luck.  So yea, kind of gross.

It was so controversial that former Ms Marvel writer, Chris Claremont wrote an X-Men annual bringing Carol Danvers back so she can confront the Avengers and accuse them of letting her be taken away by her own rapist.

So yea, if Marvel is in fact even partly referencing this storyline, I'm curious to see what the reaction will be.

 

[mormont]

The problem there is that the villain in Avengers 200 is Immortus' son, Marcus, not Immortus himself.

I'm fairly sure this won't be the direction they go, even if Kang is revealed to be involved.

[Jaxom 1974]

Not to mention that Immortus played a huge part, along with Mephisto, in the Byrne run of Avengers West Coast that's been referenced as a major influence to the show.  It could be a bit of both. But to use Kang/Immortus here would be a bit too much...

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

But to use Kang/Immortus here would be a bit too much...

I dunno, from the sounds of it I'd definitely prefer the big bad to be this Kang character than the devil.

[Myrddin]

On 2/12/2021 at 8:32 AM, Rhom said:

I'm loving it, but there's no way my wife who enjoys watching the Avengers would ever get into this.

My wife has insisted on rewatching all the Avengers movies after starting WV to remember what's feeding into the show. She's never rewatched any of the Marvel movies before (ok, maybe a few before IW, but that was it)

[SpaceChampion]

Given Elizabeth Olsen recounting the origins of her character here and goes over the highlights of her storylines, including about her twins created as shards of Mephisto, I think it extremely unlikely they are doing that in WandaVision.  No way would she be talking about that publicly if it was more or less the same storyline.

 

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/14/2021 at 3:34 PM, Mr Gordo said:

I haven't seen anything reported anywhere about Kang being the "major villain" of Phase 4, just that he was cast for Ant-Man 3.

Yea, I probably should have said widely speculated (at least widely amongst the internet blogs that I frequent) as opposed to reported.  But I do kind of think that Kang is too much of a major villain in Avengers lore to be relegated to one Ant Man movie.  The fact that the Loki show deals with “temporal” crimes makes me think that more than just Ant Man is going to deal with a time traveling villain.

 

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/14/2021 at 1:32 PM, Jaxom 1974 said:

Not to mention that Immortus played a huge part, along with Mephisto, in the Byrne run of Avengers West Coast that's been referenced as a major influence to the show.  It could be a bit of both. But to use Kang/Immortus here would be a bit too much...

I doubt that the show is just aping Byrne’s Avengers West Coast run.  My guess is that they are pulling bits and pieces out of a lot of the storylines that the Vison and Scarlet Witch were involved in.  Englehart’s mid 70’s run on the Avengers was the story arc that first started the Vision Scarlet Witch relationship (at least I think so).  And that arc dealt heavily with Agatha Harkness, Kang, Immortus etc.  

I think that there are too many hints re: the devil for Mephisto or some type of Mephisto stand in not to be involved.  But that doesn’t mean that it isn’t just one more layer of the onion.  Perhaps peel that back and something else gets revealed.  

I think that the whole concept of time travel and multiverses makes me think that Kang/Immortus are going to be heavily involved in all of the Phase 4 properties.

[ithanos]

I like how we're coming upon the seventh episode and we still don't know who is behind all of this.

Mephisto (posing as Pietro) still looks compelling, especially with that classic villain's hairdo. Then again, the best time for the MCU to have introduced a demon immortal would've been as a peer to Thanos (when he was still seeking the Infinity Stones), which didn't eventuate.  

And if we're throwing Kang into the hat then I'd add in Victor Von Doom (which reminds me to ponder if Sokovia shares a border with Latveria in this MCU). Doom had some familial ties with the occult iirc, and he may have someone he dearly wants returned from the dead. Bringing in Dr Doom as an interim big baddie (like they did with Loki in Avengers 1) opens the door for a more galactic level threat like Kang, Galactus, or The Beyonder.  

[mormont]

Doom has canonically defeated all of those 'galactic level' threats. Doom plays second fiddle to no one!

[Heartofice]

I would love it if they did a proper version of Victor Von Doom! Love it! He’s the one character that has been worst served by previous movies, it’s like everyone is embarrassed to even go there 

[Maltaran]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

Doom has canonically defeated all of those 'galactic level' threats. Doom plays second fiddle to no one!

Squirrel Girl? :p

[RumHam]

5 hours ago, ithanos said:

I like how we're coming upon the seventh episode and we still don't know who is behind all of this.

Mephisto (posing as Pietro) still looks compelling, especially with that classic villain's hairdo. Then again, the best time for the MCU to have introduced a demon immortal would've been as a peer to Thanos (when he was still seeking the Infinity Stones), which didn't eventuate.  

And if we're throwing Kang into the hat then I'd add in Victor Von Doom (which reminds me to ponder if Sokovia shares a border with Latveria in this MCU). Doom had some familial ties with the occult iirc, and he may have someone he dearly wants returned from the dead. Bringing in Dr Doom as an interim big baddie (like they did with Loki in Avengers 1) opens the door for a more galactic level threat like Kang, Galactus, or The Beyonder.  

I still say Nightmare because he was supposed to be the villain of Doctor Strange II. Though the plan could have changed. Hayward also said something about "ending this nightmare" by killing Wanda. 

It could be something like Thanos in The Avengers where it's only revealed to the audience at the end, Wanda ends up wanted or captured and then in Doctor Strange II they team up to take down the bad guy. 

[Frey family reunion]

 Wanda has been established as having two basic powers.  Telekinesis, which enables her to move objects or fly.  And limited telepathy and mind control.  So she can certainly create an illusionary world, and she can certainly manipulate physical objects within this world.  But in ways she’s still limited.  The outfit she created for Monica was reassembled from Monica’s actual outfit when she went into Westview.  So she’s not creating stuff out of whole cloth.  

So when you look at the show, you can kind of explain a lot of it through Wanda’s existing powers.  Except for a few things, which should be beyond even her.  We get a quick glimpse of it early on when she reassembles a plate that had shattered.  Then we have a more dramatic example of when she “rewound” the scene of the SWORD agent coming out of the sewer.  Then we have her accelerated pregnancy and accelerated aging of her children.  Even some things like characters seemingly moving in super speed.  I think these are examples of time manipulation.  

A lot of it is kind of like what we see in Dr. Strange.  He uses the time stone in his amulet to keep rewinding the Dormamu scene at the end.  I think someone is using the time stone again here.  So it is either Wanda, or someone else acting in the background.

Which brings me to “Quicksilver”.  With the knowledge that the Secret Invasion storyline is on the horizon, I think that Skrulls may be involved in this storyline as well.  I think Quicksilver is a Skrull agent.  His super speed is being accomplished by someone using the time stone to make Quicksilver appear that he is moving in super speed.  

So I keep going back to Kang/Immortus, acting in connection with Skrulls.  Apparently some of the news stories in the newspapers recount a flying saucer appearing over Westview.  Which not only hints at a Skrull presence, but a news report of a flying saucer is also the exact way that Kang was introduced in Avengers issue 8.

Now here is my biggest tinfoil crackpot.  Remember Wanda and Vision’s “anniversary”?  It was August 23.  August is the 8th month of the year.  Avengers 8 was Kang’s first appearance in comics.  His next major story arc in the Avengers and the next time he appeared on the cover?  Avengers 23.