Mourning Star Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 15 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: They were the same people who chose to follow him at the Wall. The men we can't name who were in the dungeons and likely given the same choice of death or taking the black? Very low bar for friendship... if you can even call it that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 4 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: The men we can't name who were in the dungeons and likely given the same choice of death or taking the black? Very low bar for friendship... if you can even call it that. Raven's teeth were not arrested but many of them chose to follow him at the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 9 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: Raven's teeth were not arrested but many of them chose to follow him at the Wall. I don't think that is true... "When last I passed this way, I saw every rock and tree and whitecap, and watched the grey gulls flying in our wake. I was five-and-thirty and had been a maester of the chain for sixteen years. Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander." Do you have any evidence for your claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 15 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: Do you have any evidence for your claim? The first act of Aegon's reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King's Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm. Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night's Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven's personal guard, the Raven's Teeth. The king's brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them. Only Bloodraven was named as arrested and Raven's teeth were not among the prisoners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 10 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: The first act of Aegon's reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King's Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm. Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night's Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven's personal guard, the Raven's Teeth. The king's brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them. Only Bloodraven was named as arrested and Raven's teeth were not among the prisoners. That quote doesn't say they weren't prisoners, and lists them amongst others who we know were prisoners. Nothing here suggests that the Raven's Teeth who went to the Wall with Aemon weren't from the dungeons, like Aemon says the men who went with him were in the text of the series itself and as we know Bloodraven was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: That quote doesn't say they weren't prisoners, and lists them amongst others who we know were prisoners. Nothing here suggests that the Raven's Teeth who went to the Wall with Aemon weren't from the dungeons, like Aemon says the men who went with him were in the text of the series itself and as we know Bloodraven was. Nothing says that Raven's teeth were prisoners either. The text clearly said that Bloodraven was arrested, it says nothing about Raven's teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: Nothing says that Raven's teeth were prisoners either. The text clearly said that Bloodraven was arrested, it says nothing about Raven's teeth. I think you are wrong. The text says that the men sent to the Wall with Aemon were from the dungeons, and the world book says that many of the men who went to the Wall with Aemon were Raven's Teeth... so we can deduce that the Raven's Teeth who went to the Wall were in the dungeons first, like Bloodraven. It seems to me that you are inventing an alternative that is not supported by the text. (Just consider for a moment how little it would make sense for Egg to call these men Aemon's honor guard, even jokingly, if they were free men who volunteered to go to the Wall because they wanted to follow Bloodraven. As opposed to listing Bloodraven among those who joined as a way out of the dungeons.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 10 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: I think you are wrong. The text says that the men sent to the Wall with Aemon were from the dungeons, and the world book says that many of the men who went to the Wall with Aemon were Raven's Teeth... so we can deduce that the Raven's Teeth who went to the Wall were in the dungeons first, like Bloodraven. It seems to me that you are inventing an alternative that is not supported by the text. (Just consider for a moment how little it would make sense for Egg to call these men Aemon's honor guard, even jokingly, if they were free men who volunteered to go to the Wall because they wanted to follow Bloodraven.) That would make sense if the prison in KL was empty and only Bloodraven was there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 23 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: That would make sense if the prison in KL was empty and only Bloodraven was there... What? I honestly do not have any idea what you are trying to say... Aemon is lying? We know Bloodraven wasn't alone in being sent to the Wall from the Dungeons... Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander. What there is not any evidence of is anyone not in the Dungeons volunteering to take the Black along side those mentioned... which seems to be what you suggested. So again, we have reason to believe the Raven's Teeth were in the dungeons alongside Bloodraven, as there is no indication that anyone not in the Dungeons joined Aemon when he went to join the Night's Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 10 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: What? I honestly do not have any idea what you are trying to say... Aemon is lying? We know Bloodraven wasn't alone in being sent to the Wall from the Dungeons... Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander. What there is not any evidence of is anyone not in the Dungeons volunteering to take the Black along side those mentioned... which seems to be what you suggested. So again, we have reason to believe the Raven's Teeth were in the dungeons alongside Bloodraven, as there is no indication that anyone not in the Dungeons joined Aemon when he went to join the Night's Watch. You may want to see Bloodrasven as the second coming of Satan. Ok. If it's not in the books I don't really care. And nowhere in the books it is mentioned that Raven's Teeth were arrested. When you have a quote from the books and not your deduction great. Until then thank you but no thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: You may want to see Bloodrasven as the second coming of Satan. Ok. If it's not in the books I don't really care. And nowhere in the books it is mentioned that Raven's Teeth were arrested. When you have a quote from the books and not your deduction great. Until then thank you but no thank you. So it is in the books... that's literally why I used quotes, and explained in simple terms the very basic deductive reasoning used to reach this conclusion. You can ignore the text in favor of your head cannon, but that doesn't change the facts for those with eyes to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 @Ran I would like to ask a question about a quote in TWOIAF. The quote: Quote Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven's personal guard, the Raven's Teeth. The king's brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them. Does it mean that the Raven's teeth volunteered to follow Bloodraven at the Wall or they were arrested with him and they chose the Wall instead of death or prison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 18 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: @Ran I would like to ask a question about a quote in TWOIAF. The quote: Does it mean that the Raven's teeth volunteered to follow Bloodraven at the Wall or they were arrested with him and they chose the Wall instead of death or prison? I'm happy to see you are at least willing to ask questions! Although I doubt you will get a clear answer... and I don't know if it would be meaningful anyway. My understanding is that Ran has said he won't openly contradict stances he took before, even if he knows they are wrong now, so as not to reveal things. But, hopefully he can answer here for himself! 20 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: You may want to see Bloodrasven as the second coming of Satan. It's a great comparison actually. Obviously, the entire series derives it's name from an allusion to Dante's Divine Comedy, in which Satan is frozen in the deepest pit of Hell. Bloodraven meanwhile is stuck in his cave in a frozen hell of his own. The Devil has three heads, and is also called the Dragon. He is punished by that deepest separation from all light, life and warmth. Sounding familiar? Satan, Lucifer, the Light Bringer, The Morning Star, The Dragon, and Emperor of the Kingdom Dolorous. The Grigori (the watchers - Weirwoods) who taught man magic and metalworking, cast down after the war in heaven, and the great flood (hammer of the waters) sent to wipe away their half human children. Venus, the morning star, is both Lucifer (light bringer) and Noctifer (night bringer), Hesperus is Phosphorus. Honestly, the parallels go on and on... and I haven't even mentioned the Night's King yet. But, perhaps most relevant here is the reason for the fall, pride, hubris, which Dante would define as, "love of self perverted to hatred and contempt for one's neighbour". But, ASoIaF might characterize this as not knowing fear. Bloodraven exemplifies this. Satan tried to claim the throne of heaven for himself, and Bloodraven, I believe, tried to claim the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 5 hours ago, Mourning Star said: I'm happy to see you are at least willing to ask questions! I do ask questions. I just have the tendency not asking haters who prefer their fanfictions than the books. I know. Its's weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 On 11/28/2021 at 11:39 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said: That's if he survives the battle of Ice and if the victorious Stannis and/or northern forces, especially the northmen who lost family, friends and men at the Red Wedding spare him, which seems very unlikely to happen. And even if he survives it's far from sure that he'll be the one chosen to lead house Frey and the Twins. If there's one thing I have utter confidence in, it's that Big Walder will inherit the Twins. That, and that Sweetrobin will still rule the Eyrie at the end of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said: If there's one thing I have utter confidence in, it's that Big Walder will inherit the Twins. That, and that Sweetrobin will still rule the Eyrie at the end of the series. I think SR will be poisoned by Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.