Little Robin’s Guards

[Springwatch]

8 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

To make sure nobody suspects anything when SR kicks the bucket?

LF and Alayne look bad if anyone hears Colemon talking about the dangers of sweetsleep. Colemon looks even worse, because he is the expert, he is responsible for SR's health, and SR is his lord.

It doesn't make sense. There was a theory that SR complained about bitterness in his milk that one time, not because Colemon put anything bitter in it, but because SR's milk always contained sweetsleep - this time it wasn't there, and SR missed it. So what's happening?

[Walda]

I don't think Coleman is an especially competent physician. At least, he is not very confident when it comes to pharmaceuticals, and he might have noticed that leeching SweetRobin hasn't had the desired effect, even though nearly all his blood has been removed.

Aemon, Luwin, Pylos, Mirri, and the Waif all go about their business like they know what they are doing, and speak with utter confidence on the effects of the treatments they are going to undertake will have on their patient.

Of course, Ballabar and Pycelle also have great confidence in their skill and knowledge. But Tyrion did not share that confidence in Ballabar's case (although it is difficult to tell if the ultimate consequence of his distrust is a thick scar across his face, or that he is still alive).

In the case of Pycelle, his patients rarely die of his treatments (in the case of Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and of Gyles Rosby, the treatment was palliative, and intended to ease an imminent death from other causes, so they don't count) but they don't seem to mend on them either. His infection control is evidently deficient, as Ned was unlucky enough to find out. I think if Cersei had been trying to kill Tyrion, she had better have sent Pycelle to tend him, not Ballabar. But the main reason I don't believe Cersei tried to kill Tyrion was because, if she had wanted to do that, she could simply have delayed picking him from the charnal heap or feild hospital they had found him in.

Maester Coleman seems hesitant about what he is doing and what he is able to do. He misdiagnosed Jon Arryn's complaint

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Maester Colemon thought it was a chill on the stomach. The weather had been hot, and the Hand often iced his wine, which can upset the digestion.

(AGoT Ch 25 Eddard V)

But his wasting potions and pepper juice did seem efficacious if Pycelle told it true to Tyrion

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Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead,

(ACoK Ch 25 Tyrion IV)

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It started with no more than a little shivering, but within a few short heartbeats he [SweetRobin] had collapsed across the castle, his limbs flailing about violently. White towers and snowy bridges shattered and fell on all sides. Sansa stood horrified, but Petyr Baelish seized her cousin’s wrists and shouted for the maester.

Guards and serving girls arrived within instants to help restrain the boy, Maester Colemon a short time later...The maester held the little lord’s head and gave him half a cup of dreamwine, murmuring soothing words. Slowly the violence of the fit seemed to ebb away, till nothing remained but a small shaking of the hands. “Help him to my chambers,” Colemon told the guards. “A leeching will help calm him.”

“It was my fault.” Sansa showed them the doll’s head. “I ripped his doll in two. I never meant to, but …”

“His lordship was destroying the castle,” said Petyr.

...the boy whispered, weeping... I don’t want to be leeched!”

“My lord, your blood needs thinning,” said Maester Colemon. “It is the bad blood that makes you angry, and the rage that brings on the shaking.

(ASoS Ch 80 Sansa VIII)

The dreamwine is obviously effective, and Roose Bolton also believes leeches calm a person and rids him of bad blood and black tempers, so it is an orthodox treatment, at least. Colemon does not seem to be attempting to kill SweetRobin.

I am not sure that Petyr Baelish cares that much for SweetRobin's health. I don't think his own convalescence after his duel with Brandon would leave him with the impression that bloodloss is healthy, or that it calms an angry soul. But he feels free to dictate treatments to Maester Colemon

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Robert began to cry, the pillows shifting perilously beneath him. “He killed my mother. I want him to fly!” The trembling in his hands had grown worse, and his arms were shaking too. The boy’s head jerked and his teeth began to chatter. “Fly!” he shrieked. “Fly, fly.” His arms and legs flailed wildly. Lothor Brune strode to the dais in time to catch the boy as he slipped from his throne. Maester Colemon was just a step behind, though there was naught that he could do.

... One of Robert’s legs kicked Ser Lothor in the face. Brune cursed, but still held on as the boy twitched and flailed and wet himself. ... It was long moments before Robert’s spasms began to subside, and seemed even longer. By the end, the little lordling was so weak he could not stand. “Best take his lordship back to bed and bleed him,” Lord Petyr said. Brune lifted the boy in his arms and carried him from the hall. Maester Colemon followed, grim-faced.

(AFfC Ch 10 Sansa I)

But Maester Coleman might reasonably have foreseen that the presence of Marrillion, and the sight of Alayne shaking and crying as she gave her testimony, would distress SweetRobin. He could have directed that the child leave the audience hall when he observed him starting to shake when Royce and Belmore questioned him. He could have advised, on the grounds of the little lord's health, that they defer questioning other witnesses about his dead mother until SweetRobin was absent.

Honestly, it shows what kind of people these Lords of the Vale are, that they would not see that they were unnecessarily traumatizing  an orphan child. But Maester Colemon knew the state the child was in before the lords arrived. He knew

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The Lord of the Eyrie had been crying again. His eyes were red and raw, his lashes crusty, his nose swollen and runny. A trail of snot glistened underneath one nostril, and his lower lip was bloody where he’d bitten it ...

If you scrubbed Robert too briskly, he might begin to shake. The boy was frail, and terribly small for his age. He was eight, but Sansa had known bigger five-year-olds.

(AFfC Ch 10 Sansa I)

Sansa thinks "Lord Nestor must not see him like this" but Maester Colemon expresses no concern for his patient, and makes no attempt to prepare him to adjudicate over his mother's inquest, any more than he does to prevent him having to.

When he does find the bottle to advocate for his patient (not before Petyr has thouroughly scared the child with news hostile Ser Lyn is coming for him and the Vale,  and too late to prevent the fit) Petyr just bulldozes him

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Robert pushed his spoon across the bowl and back, but never brought it to his lips. “I am not hungry,” he decided. “I want to go back to bed. I never slept last night. I heard singing. Maester Colemon gave me dreamwine but I could still hear it.”

Alayne put down her spoon. “If there had been singing, I should have heard it too. You had a bad dream, that’s all.”

“No, it wasn’t a dream.” Tears filled his eyes. “Marillion was singing again. Your father says he’s dead, but he isn’t.”
... “Be a good boy and eat your porridge,” Alayne pleaded. “Please? For me?”

“I don’t want porridge.” Robert flung his spoon across the hall. It bounced off a hanging tapestry, and left a smear of porridge upon a white silk moon. “The lord wants eggs!”

“The lord shall eat porridge and be thankful for it,” said Petyr’s voice, behind them.

Alayne turned, and saw him in the doorway arch with Maester Colemon at his side. “You should heed the Lord Protector, my lord,” the maester said. “Your lord’s bannermen are coming up the mountain to pay you homage, so you will need all your strength.”

Robert rubbed at his left eye with a knuckle. “Send them away. I don’t want them. If they come, I’ll make them fly." ...

“Why won’t they leave us be?” wailed Alayne. “We never did them any harm. What do they want of us?”

“Just Lord Robert. Him, and the Vale.” Petyr smiled. “There will be eight of them. Lord Nestor is showing them up, and they have Lyn Corbray with them. Ser Lyn is not the sort of man to stay away when blood is in the offing.”

If even half she had heard from Lord Robert’s guards was true, Lyn Corbray was more dangerous than all six of the Lords Declarant put together. “Why is he coming?” she asked. “I thought the Corbrays were for you.”

“Lord Lyonel Corbray is well disposed toward my rule,” said Petyr, “but his brother goes his own way...[long story about Ser Lyn killing people]... Ser Lyn … wanted Lysa’s hand for himself.”

“I don’t like Ser Lyn,” Robert insisted. “I won’t have him here. You send him back down. I never said that he could come. Not here. The Eyrie is impregnable, Mother said.”

“Your mother is dead, my lord. Until your sixteenth name day, I rule the Eyrie.” Petyr turned to the stoop-backed serving woman hovering near the kitchen steps. “Mela, fetch his lordship a new spoon. He wants to eat his porridge.”

“I do not! Let my porridge fly!” This time Robert flung the bowl, porridge and honey and all. Petyr Baelish ducked aside nimbly, but Maester Colemon was not so quick. The wooden bowl caught him square in the chest, and its contents exploded upward over his face and shoulders. He yelped in a most unmaesterlike fashion, while Alayne turned to soothe the little lordling, but too late. The fit was on him. A pitcher of milk went flying as his hand caught it, flailing. When he tried to rise he knocked his chair backwards and fell on top of it. One foot caught Alayne in the belly, so hard it knocked the wind from her. “Oh, gods be good,” she heard Petyr say, disgusted.

Globs of porridge dotted Maester Colemon’s face and hair as he knelt over his charge, murmuring soothing words. One gobbet crept slowly down his right cheek, like a lumpy grey-brown tear. It is not so bad a spell as the last one, Alayne thought, trying to be hopeful. By the time the shaking stopped, two guards in sky-blue cloaks and silvery mail shirts had come at Petyr’s summons. “Take him back to bed and leech him,” the Lord Protector said, and the taller guardsman scooped the boy up in his arms. I could carry him myself, Alayne thought. He is no heavier than a doll.

Colemon lingered a moment before following. “My lord, this parley might best be left for another day. His lordship’s spells have grown worse since Lady Lysa’s death. More frequent and more violent. I bleed the child as often as I dare, and mix him dreamwine and milk of the poppy to help him sleep, but …”

“He sleeps twelve hours a day,” Petyr said. “I require him awake from time to time.”

The maester combed his fingers through his hair, dribbling globs of porridge on the floor. “Lady Lysa would give his lordship her breast whenever he grew overwrought. Archmaester Ebrose claims that mother’s milk has many heathful properties.”

“Is that your counsel, maester? That we find a wet nurse for the Lord of the Eyrie and Defender of the Vale? When shall we wean him, on his wedding day? That way he can move directly from his nurse’s nipples to his wife’s.” Lord Petyr’s laugh made it plain what he thought of that. “No, I think not. I suggest you find another way. The boy is fond of sweets, is he not?”

“Sweets?” said Colemon.

“Sweets. Cakes and pies, jams and jellies, honey on the comb. Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking.”

“A pinch?” The apple in the maester’s throat moved up and down as he swallowed. “One small pinch … perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try …”

“A pinch,” Lord Petyr said, “before you bring him forth to meet the lords.”

“As you command, my lord.” The maester hurried out, his chain clinking softly with every step.

(AFfC Ch 23 Alayne I)

Pycelle might have let Jon Arryn die because he thought Cersei wanted it (or maybe just gave Tyrion the confession he was after, when he held a dagger at his throat). At least he made his own diagnosis, and didn't servilely agree to orders he believed would harm his patient. 

Pycelle is not the only one to observe Colemon is inexperienced, either

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Lady Waynwood sighed. “... Maester Helliweg is a good deal older and more experienced than your own Maester Colemon, and better suited to treat Lord Robert’s frailties. ..."

(AFfC Ch 23 Alayne I)

People comment on Maester Pylos' youth, but not his inexperience. And Maester Colemon doesn't seem to be extraordinarily young.

I can see a reason Petyr would want the Lords Declarant to believe SweetRobin is weak and not long for this world

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"my stepson will be remaining here with me. He is not a robust child, as all of you know well. The journey would tax him sorely. As his stepfather and Lord Protector, I cannot permit it.”

(AFfC Ch 23 Alayne I)

When the Lords Declarant give Petyr Baelish a year as Lord Protector, they carry away the consolation of thinking Harrold Hardyng might rule the Vale before the end of it. At least, on that occasion, the aggro happened in Petyr's solar, and SweetRobin met his guests after they were chastened and Corbray had left.

Sansa feels concern for her cousin on multiple occasions

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“Did Maester Colemon send you?” the boy asked.

“No,” she lied. “I heard my Sweetrobin was ailing.” After his encounter with the chamber pot the maester had come running to Ser Lothor, and Brune had come to her. “If m’lady can talk him out of bed nice,” the knight said, “I won’t have to drag him out.”

We can’t have that, she told herself. When Robert was handled roughly he was apt to go into a shaking fit.

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II)

The "we can't have that" quote that @Universal Sword Donor gave shows Sansa concerned about SweetRobin's lordly appearance, or perhaps the qualms his bannerlords might feel about his carers. But here, it is less ambiguous. Sansa is clearly concerned that SweetRobin will have a shaking fit if he is roughly dealt with. So is Lothar Brune. But Maester Coleman goes to Brune, seeking the remedy most likely to upset SweetRobin.

She does offer him dreamwine when she is trying to coax him out of bed, but only after she has offered him food, stories, a bath, and a warm cloth for his brow.

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“Shall I bring you a warm cloth for your brow? Or a cup of dreamwine? Only a little one, though. Mya Stone is waiting down at Sky, and she’ll be hurt if you go to sleep on her. You know how much she loves you.”

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II)

SweetRobin complains about a headache as soon as the tiniest beam of sunlight enters the room. He kicks up at the thought of food and just wants to stay in bed. Sansa might think a small cup of dreamwine is a hair of the dog that bit him, but SweetRobin tells her

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“Maester Colemon put something vile in my milk last night, I could taste it. I told him I wanted sweetmilk, but he wouldn’t bring me any. Not even when I commanded him...”

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II)

SweetRobin didn't command him, and Sansa didn't know about it, so did Lord Baelish put Colemon up to this new, hangover inducing stuff? Or did Maester Colemon do this off his own bat?

Dany is given milk with a vile aftertaste after her child is delivered stillborn, while she has a fever. When the fever dies, Mirri gives her dreamwine. Arya is given milk with a burnt aftertaste and loses her sight while she takes it - but she learns to see through cat's eyes. 

I think the substance might be some kind of milk of the poppy, because that is what Maester Aemon brings Jon milk of the poppy in a similar green jar, with the same chalky taste as the honey-sweetened draught Maester Luwin gives Bran for dreamless sleep. Maester Pycelle promises Cersei a draught for dreamless sleep.

There are differences: Dany wakes from dreamless sleep gasping for water,  Jon gasps for water but had plenty of dreams. Cersei doesn't gasp for water but dreams of Maggi the Frog. There is no mention of Bran nor Arya feeling thirsty on waking, anymore than SweetRobin. But Bran wargs Summer and Arya a cat. There is a falcon outside SweetRobin's window when he wakes and he wants to read of Ser Artys Arryn's flights - perhaps he took the falcon's skin in his sleep? 

If Petyr Baelish did not order him, perhaps Maester Colemon thought a bit of milk of the poppy might soften SweetRobin's withdrawal from dreamwine, the way 19th century physicians thought morphine would cure a laudernum addiction, and heroin would cure a morphine addiction.

The waif's claim about sweetsleep killing at three pinches is a bold one, and the waif knows her poisons. But she claimed she had told Arya a lie in that conversation. Like SweetRobin, the waif looks too small for her age. The kindly man says it is because of the drugs she makes. She doesn't have watery eyes or a running nose, but those are signs of withdrawal, and she has the means to string herself out indefinitely.

If it is milk of the poppy, Maester Colemon intends to give SweetRobin another dose as soon as Sansa persuades him to get up. 

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He hesitated. “Did you observe any shaking while you were with him?”

“His fingers trembled a little bit when I held his hand, that’s all. He says you put something vile in his milk.”

“Vile?” Colemon blinked at her, and the apple in his throat moved up and down. “I merely … is he bleeding from the nose?”

“No.”

“Good. That is good.” His chain clinked softly as he bobbed his head, atop a ridiculously long and skinny neck. “This descent … my lady, it might be safest if I mixed his lordship some milk of the poppy. Mya Stone could lash him over the back of her most surefooted mule whilst he slumbered.”

“The Lord of the Eyrie cannot descend from his mountain tied up like a sack of barleycorn.” Of that Alayne was certain. They dare not let the full extent of Robert’s frailty and cowardice become too widely known, her father had warned her. I wish he were here. He would know what to do.

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II)

In real life, asprin, blood thinning medications and some anti-epileptic medications can cause nosebleeds. So maybe it wasn't milk of the poppy, or wasn't just milk of the poppy. Whether his motives are fair or foul, Colmon is a lot less inclined to negotiate with Sansa than Petyr.

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Alayne understood ..  that the burden of getting Sweetrobin safely down the mountain fell on her. “Give his lordship a cup of sweetmilk,” she told the maester. “That will stop him from shaking on the journey down.”

“He had a cup not three days past,” Colemon objected.

“And wanted another last night, which you refused him.”

“It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I’ve told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time …”

“Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs.”

“I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep … you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?”

“He was sniffling,” Alayne admitted, “but I saw no blood.”

“I must speak to the Lord Protector. This feast … is that wise, I wonder, after the strain of the descent?”

“It will not be a large feast,” she assured him.

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II) the bolded bits speak to Sansa's motives for wanting to give SweetRobin sweetsleep. It is all about getting SweetRobin safely down the mountain. Also note that this is the first time she hears that sweetsleep is a dangerous drug. But Petyr has been told already.

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“Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble.”

“Very well.” They paused at the foot of the stairs. “But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer.”

“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true.

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II)

In the end, Maester Colemon caves even to unintimidating Sansa. Bows to the judgement of a thirteen year old girl. Again, we can see from the bolded bit that Sansa thought what she was asking was better for SweetRobin as Lord of the Vale. She knows it is what Petyr would have her do, but she doesn't suppose Petyr is interested in killing SweetRobin, anymore than she suspects Colemon, who may or may not have actually given sweetsleep to SweetRobin when he left to bathe.  There is no time when Sansa gives SweetRobin any medicine.

Incidentally, Petyr also tells her

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that young girls were always happiest with older men. “Innocence and experience make for a perfect marriage,” he had said.

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II)

Yet she doesn't suspect him of arranging her an unhappy marriage to Harrold Hardyng.

Sweetsleep or no, SweetRobin starts to tremble as they are winched down to Sky. When they reach the perilous stone saddle, he has a shaking fit, but mercifully it happens after Sansa has coaxed him across. If she was interested in killing him, she had her chance.

And if Maester Colemon was attempting to prevent SweetRobin shaking on his way down the mountain, whatever he did didn't work when he was on the saddle and needed it most. If they had followed Maester Colemans plan, SweetRobin would have been so heavily sedated he went across strapped to a mule, which, given Mya's preference for leading the mules across unladen, was probably more dangerous for the mule as well as SweetRobin.

SweetRobin nods off to sleep without medical intervention as they reach the Gates of the Moon. Either that, or he was on the nod from some super slow-release sedative.

It is only when they get there that Petyr reveals the plan that would give Sansa the motive to kill SweetRobin - a marriage that will give her nothing but unhappiness and the risk of being revealed as the traitor Sansa Lannister when Harry wanted out, except (supposedly) if SweetRobin died and Harry inherited his position. The chapter ends before Sansa reacts to this news, so we don't know how she feels about it.

Spoiler

Winds of Winter

Spoiler

In the Alayne preview chapter we see her going along with Petyr's plan to seduce Harry, although he begins by wounding her feelings with calculated malice and intent.

 

So no, I don't think the text shows that Sansa administered sweetsleep, and her thoughts and motives are stated clearly enough, often enough to convince me that she was not intending to kill SweetRobin. 

Not so sure about Coleman, except the only motives I can think of are 1/ He decided he did not want Petyr as Lord Protector of the Vale 2/He has had enough of the peevish brat, after being hit with the chamberpot.

One more thought - what do you suppose Colemon had come into SweetRobin's bedroom to do, when he was struck by the chamberpot, presumably thrown by an unexpectedly alert and strong ( desperately strong?) SweetRobin.

[Bowen 747]

Here's to hoping Sweetrobin flips the tables on Sansa and Petyr and beats them at their own nasty scheming. 

[Walda]

12 hours ago, Springwatch said:

not because Colemon put anything bitter in it, but because SR's milk always contained sweetsleep

I like this theory! 

Perhaps Maester Colemon has secretly decided to withdraw his medical assistance so the child-lord dies in the Lord Declarant's year. Only, without his medical intervention, the child begins to thrive.

When SweetRobin has the 'make my porridge fly' fit, Sansa thinks "this is not so bad a spell as the last one" while Maester Colemon says "His lordship’s spells have grown worse since Lady Lysa’s death. More frequent and more violent." I still can't tell which of them is reading the trend right. 

Concerning SweetRobin's symptoms, Lysa also had watery eyes, a pale puffy face, and a petulant temper.

Catlyn had that shaking fit when Bran was in a coma and the Winterfell library burnt. It was preceded by a fixation on Bran (to the expense of three year old Rickon), feeling tired and having a perpetual headache, and screaming with uncharacteristic petulance at Maester Luwin's desire to appoint attempted an acting master of horse for Winterfell.

Jon notes (AGoT Ch 10 Jon II) that Catelyn looks like she has aged twenty years, her voice is strangely flat and emotionless, her eyes are poison and she weeps when he leaves. Bran has spindly wasted limbs and seems shrunken, his eyes sunken.

Catelyn didn't eat or drink or sleep much, and had been preparing and feeding Bran some kind of megtheglin or cordial, made with herbs and honey. Earlier she prayed to all seven of her Gods for Bran to stay with her. Possibly also offering them Jon in exchange for Bran.

After she and Summer kill the catspaw, Catelyn allows Maester Luwin to take her to her own chambers and give her milk of the poppy. She sleeps four days straight and wakes saner and stronger, and no longer is fixated on being by Bran's side, leaving him in his coma, after this assassination attempt, for King's Landing and meddling in statecraft. As she foresaw, she never heard him laugh again.(Tbh, he hasn't been a barrel of laughs since he came out of his coma, but Catelyn never saw him regain conciousness).

Then, as in SweetRobin's case, the question is "Why would anyone want to kill a sleeping child?" And in Bran's  case (or perhaps Catelyn's, as she was the only person the catspaw attempted to attack) we know the dagger was claimed by Petyr Baelish.

[Seams]

19 hours ago, Walda said:

Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking.”
“A pinch?” The apple in the maester’s throat moved up and down as he swallowed. “One small pinch … perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try …”
“A pinch,” Lord Petyr said, “before you bring him forth to meet the lords.”
“As you command, my lord.” The maester hurried out, his chain clinking softly with every step.

 

19 hours ago, Walda said:

There is a falcon outside SweetRobin's window when he wakes and he wants to read of Ser Artys Arryn's flights - perhaps he took the falcon's skin in his sleep? 

I think Sweetrobin's fits are attempts to take flight - his arms flail. It could be he is becoming a falcon but I think it is possibly yet another dragon metaphor at work here. We know that there is precedent for the underage lord of the Eyrie to fly on a dragon:

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Sharra Arryn had strengthened the defenses of Gulltown, moved a strong host to the Bloody Gate, and tripled the size of the garrisons in Stone, Snow, and Sky, the waycastles that guarded the approach to the Eyrie. All these defenses proved useless against Visenya Targaryen, who rode Vhagar's leathery wings above them all and landed in the Eyrie's inner courtyard. When the regent of the Vale rushed out to confront her, with a dozen guards at her back, she found Visenya with Ronnel Arryn seated on her knee, staring at the dragon, wonderstruck. "Mother, can I go flying with the lady?" the boy king asked. No threats were spoken, no angry words exchanged. The two queens smiled at one another and exchanged courtesies instead. Then Lady Sharra sent for the three crowns (her own regent's coronet, her son's small crown, and the Falcon Crown of Mountain and Vale that the Arryn kings had worn for a thousand years), and surrendered them to Queen Visenya, along with the swords of her garrison. And it was said afterward that the little king flew thrice about the summit of the Giant's Lance and landed to find himself a little lord. Thus did Visenya Targaryen bring the Vale of Arryn into her brother's realm. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest.)

House Arryn is one of the first to fall to the Conqueror, as I recall. So the flight of the Arryn Lord could be a key turning point for anyone who wants to conquer Westeros again in the future. 

My reading of the subtext is that Baelish is trying to prevent Sweetrobin from flying before the time is right. Sansa / Alayne buys into the directive from Baelish but ends up taking the leap with little Robert Arryn as they descend the mountain. Here we see squires holding Sweetrobin's cloak - the narrator tells us they are keeping it off the floor, but maybe they are also preventing him from taking off: the next paragraph tells us he might be inclined to flee. 

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The little lord wore sky-blue velvet, a chain of gold and sapphires, and a white bearskin cloak. His squires each held an end, to keep the cloak from dragging on the floor. Maester Colemon accompanied them, in a threadbare grey cloak lined with squirrel fur. Gretchel and Maddy were not far behind.

When he felt the cold wind on his face, Robert quailed, but Terrance and Gyles were behind him, so he could not flee. "My lord," said Mya, "will you ride down with me?" (AFfC, Alayne II)

But then the cloaks are allowed to flap, Sansa and Robert make a perilous crossing that is too magical for the author to put into words for us (suddenly they are on the other side, without telling us exactly how this happened) and we see that Robert is shaking and has to be calmed - a clear example of "shaking fit = flying," imho.

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"Ser Sweetrobin," Lord Robert said, and Alayne knew that she dare not wait for Mya to return. She helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them. All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

And then they were on the other side, and Mya Stone was laughing and lifting Robert for a hug. "Be careful," Alayne told her. "He can hurt you, flailing. You wouldn't think so, but he can." They found a place for him, a cleft in the rock to keep him out of the cold wind. Alayne tended him until the shaking passed, whilst Mya went back to help the others cross.

Granted, the boy's cloak is made of white bearskin. There is a lot of interaction between little Lord Robert and Ser Lothar Brune - I assume "Brune" is a variation on the theme of "bruin" and that we have a House Mormont (bear sigil) symbol in Lothar. (Recall, too, that Tyrion wore a bear skin cloak at Castle Black and a shadowcat cloak during his visit to the Eyrie, fwiw.) 

We also have Robert Baratheon's oldest child, Mya, and a Royce as part of the procession down the mountain with Lord Robert and Sansa. So we are recreating the alliance of Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon and Jon Arryn in this scene where we may see Sweetrobin taking flight for the first time under the guidance of Sansa / Alayne. The added support from a Royce and a symbolic Mormont is intriguing - what is the role of these symbols in this aspect of the story?

In the first cited excerpt, the repetition of the word "pinch" with reference to Sweetrobin may be another clue for us. In The Sworn Sword, Egg tells Dunk that Ser Bennis regularly pinches him. Dunk then recalls that Ser Bennis used to pinch him, too. My guess about the wordplay is that these are references to "pincers" and the pun is on the word "prince." Boys who are pinched are marked as princes.

(There is probably a connection to crab claws and lobstered gauntlets in the pincer symbolism, so it would be great if someone wants to do a thorough analysis of Brienne's journey to Crackclaw Point, the crab feast at Castle Black where Tyrion challenges Ser Alliser Thorne to a duel, the sword Longclaw and the key taken from the lobstered gauntlet at the Citadel. There may be a related pun on claw / walk which becomes especially relevant because Bran will never walk again but he will fly, according to Bloodraven.) 

I suspect the guards chosen to surround Lord Robert will embody qualities he needs for flying (dragons, falcons) but they could continue some of the themes with which he has been surrounded already: the bear, the claw, lemons, milk. The sigil of House Hardyng is red and white diamonds. Red and white are colors associated with Bloodraven but also weirwood trees and Jon Snow's wolf. I believe that diamonds are symbols of dragon teeth. There is more than a little Bloodraven symbolism connected to little Lord Robert so his guard and his future could bring together some of the imagery and functions associated with that important character. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 2/13/2021 at 5:15 PM, Walda said:

I don't think Coleman is an especially competent physician. At least, he is not very confident when it comes to pharmaceuticals, and he might have noticed that leeching SweetRobin hasn't had the desired effect, even though nearly all his blood has been removed.

Aemon, Luwin, Pylos, Mirri, and the Waif all go about their business like they know what they are doing, and speak with utter confidence on the effects of the treatments they are going to undertake will have on their patient.

Of course, Ballabar and Pycelle also have great confidence in their skill and knowledge. But Tyrion did not share that confidence in Ballabar's case (although it is difficult to tell if the ultimate consequence of his distrust is a thick scar across his face, or that he is still alive).

In the case of Pycelle, his patients rarely die of his treatments (in the case of Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and of Gyles Rosby, the treatment was palliative, and intended to ease an imminent death from other causes, so they don't count) but they don't seem to mend on them either. His infection control is evidently deficient, as Ned was unlucky enough to find out. I think if Cersei had been trying to kill Tyrion, she had better have sent Pycelle to tend him, not Ballabar. But the main reason I don't believe Cersei tried to kill Tyrion was because, if she had wanted to do that, she could simply have delayed picking him from the charnal heap or feild hospital they had found him in.

Maester Coleman seems hesitant about what he is doing and what he is able to do. He misdiagnosed Jon Arryn's complaint

(AGoT Ch 25 Eddard V)

But his wasting potions and pepper juice did seem efficacious if Pycelle told it true to Tyrion

(ACoK Ch 25 Tyrion IV)

(ASoS Ch 80 Sansa VIII)

The dreamwine is obviously effective, and Roose Bolton also believes leeches calm a person and rids him of bad blood and black tempers, so it is an orthodox treatment, at least. Colemon does not seem to be attempting to kill SweetRobin.

I am not sure that Petyr Baelish cares that much for SweetRobin's health. I don't think his own convalescence after his duel with Brandon would leave him with the impression that bloodloss is healthy, or that it calms an angry soul. But he feels free to dictate treatments to Maester Colemon

(AFfC Ch 10 Sansa I)

But Maester Coleman might reasonably have foreseen that the presence of Marrillion, and the sight of Alayne shaking and crying as she gave her testimony, would distress SweetRobin. He could have directed that the child leave the audience hall when he observed him starting to shake when Royce and Belmore questioned him. He could have advised, on the grounds of the little lord's health, that they defer questioning other witnesses about his dead mother until SweetRobin was absent.

Honestly, it shows what kind of people these Lords of the Vale are, that they would not see that they were unnecessarily traumatizing  an orphan child. But Maester Colemon knew the state the child was in before the lords arrived. He knew

(AFfC Ch 10 Sansa I)

Sansa thinks "Lord Nestor must not see him like this" but Maester Colemon expresses no concern for his patient, and makes no attempt to prepare him to adjudicate over his mother's inquest, any more than he does to prevent him having to.

When he does find the bottle to advocate for his patient (not before Petyr has thouroughly scared the child with news hostile Ser Lyn is coming for him and the Vale,  and too late to prevent the fit) Petyr just bulldozes him

(AFfC Ch 23 Alayne I)

Pycelle might have let Jon Arryn die because he thought Cersei wanted it (or maybe just gave Tyrion the confession he was after, when he held a dagger at his throat). At least he made his own diagnosis, and didn't servilely agree to orders he believed would harm his patient. 

Pycelle is not the only one to observe Colemon is inexperienced, either

(AFfC Ch 23 Alayne I)

People comment on Maester Pylos' youth, but not his inexperience. And Maester Colemon doesn't seem to be extraordinarily young.

I can see a reason Petyr would want the Lords Declarant to believe SweetRobin is weak and not long for this world

(AFfC Ch 23 Alayne I)

When the Lords Declarant give Petyr Baelish a year as Lord Protector, they carry away the consolation of thinking Harrold Hardyng might rule the Vale before the end of it. At least, on that occasion, the aggro happened in Petyr's solar, and SweetRobin met his guests after they were chastened and Corbray had left.

Sansa feels concern for her cousin on multiple occasions

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II)

The "we can't have that" quote that @Universal Sword Donor gave shows Sansa concerned about SweetRobin's lordly appearance, or perhaps the qualms his bannerlords might feel about his carers. But here, it is less ambiguous. Sansa is clearly concerned that SweetRobin will have a shaking fit if he is roughly dealt with. So is Lothar Brune. But Maester Coleman goes to Brune, seeking the remedy most likely to upset SweetRobin.

She does offer him dreamwine when she is trying to coax him out of bed, but only after she has offered him food, stories, a bath, and a warm cloth for his brow.

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II)

SweetRobin complains about a headache as soon as the tiniest beam of sunlight enters the room. He kicks up at the thought of food and just wants to stay in bed. Sansa might think a small cup of dreamwine is a hair of the dog that bit him, but SweetRobin tells her

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II)

SweetRobin didn't command him, and Sansa didn't know about it, so did Lord Baelish put Colemon up to this new, hangover inducing stuff? Or did Maester Colemon do this off his own bat?

Dany is given milk with a vile aftertaste after her child is delivered stillborn, while she has a fever. When the fever dies, Mirri gives her dreamwine. Arya is given milk with a burnt aftertaste and loses her sight while she takes it - but she learns to see through cat's eyes. 

I think the substance might be some kind of milk of the poppy, because that is what Maester Aemon brings Jon milk of the poppy in a similar green jar, with the same chalky taste as the honey-sweetened draught Maester Luwin gives Bran for dreamless sleep. Maester Pycelle promises Cersei a draught for dreamless sleep.

There are differences: Dany wakes from dreamless sleep gasping for water,  Jon gasps for water but had plenty of dreams. Cersei doesn't gasp for water but dreams of Maggi the Frog. There is no mention of Bran nor Arya feeling thirsty on waking, anymore than SweetRobin. But Bran wargs Summer and Arya a cat. There is a falcon outside SweetRobin's window when he wakes and he wants to read of Ser Artys Arryn's flights - perhaps he took the falcon's skin in his sleep? 

If Petyr Baelish did not order him, perhaps Maester Colemon thought a bit of milk of the poppy might soften SweetRobin's withdrawal from dreamwine, the way 19th century physicians thought morphine would cure a laudernum addiction, and heroin would cure a morphine addiction.

The waif's claim about sweetsleep killing at three pinches is a bold one, and the waif knows her poisons. But she claimed she had told Arya a lie in that conversation. Like SweetRobin, the waif looks too small for her age. The kindly man says it is because of the drugs she makes. She doesn't have watery eyes or a running nose, but those are signs of withdrawal, and she has the means to string herself out indefinitely.

If it is milk of the poppy, Maester Colemon intends to give SweetRobin another dose as soon as Sansa persuades him to get up. 

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II)

In real life, asprin, blood thinning medications and some anti-epileptic medications can cause nosebleeds. So maybe it wasn't milk of the poppy, or wasn't just milk of the poppy. Whether his motives are fair or foul, Colmon is a lot less inclined to negotiate with Sansa than Petyr.

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II) the bolded bits speak to Sansa's motives for wanting to give SweetRobin sweetsleep. It is all about getting SweetRobin safely down the mountain. Also note that this is the first time she hears that sweetsleep is a dangerous drug. But Petyr has been told already.

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II)

In the end, Maester Colemon caves even to unintimidating Sansa. Bows to the judgement of a thirteen year old girl. Again, we can see from the bolded bit that Sansa thought what she was asking was better for SweetRobin as Lord of the Vale. She knows it is what Petyr would have her do, but she doesn't suppose Petyr is interested in killing SweetRobin, anymore than she suspects Colemon, who may or may not have actually given sweetsleep to SweetRobin when he left to bathe.  There is no time when Sansa gives SweetRobin any medicine.

Incidentally, Petyr also tells her

(AFfC Ch 41 Alayne II)

Yet she doesn't suspect him of arranging her an unhappy marriage to Harrold Hardyng.

Sweetsleep or no, SweetRobin starts to tremble as they are winched down to Sky. When they reach the perilous stone saddle, he has a shaking fit, but mercifully it happens after Sansa has coaxed him across. If she was interested in killing him, she had her chance.

Just want to add in the last part of the paragraph from Alayne II:

“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.”

The larger concerns those two have are survival and consolidation of power. They are using SR as means to an end for survival and Harry is the path to power. They are intensely focused on SR in the short term but are indifferent to his long term survival. This nugget is actually one of my favorite parts of character development in ASOIAF because we're seeing Sansa take the additional step of becoming a functioning adult in the world that LF and the Hound revealed. She's even reconciled herself to not trusting LF either past making sure he helps her survive. 

Again, it's not as much that Sansa wants him dead and more that she's fine with him dying as long as he stays alive long enough for her to make it out.

 

On 2/13/2021 at 5:15 PM, Walda said:

It is only when they get there that Petyr reveals the plan that would give Sansa the motive to kill SweetRobin - a marriage that will give her nothing but unhappiness and the risk of being revealed as the traitor Sansa Lannister when Harry wanted out, except (supposedly) if SweetRobin died and Harry inherited his position. The chapter ends before Sansa reacts to this news, so we don't know how she feels about it.

So no, I don't think the text shows that Sansa administered sweetsleep, and her thoughts and motives are stated clearly enough, often enough to convince me that she was not intending to kill SweetRobin. 

Not so sure about Coleman, except the only motives I can think of are 1/ He decided he did not want Petyr as Lord Protector of the Vale 2/He has had enough of the peevish brat, after being hit with the chamberpot.

One more thought - what do you suppose Colemon had come into SweetRobin's bedroom to do, when he was struck by the chamberpot, presumably thrown by an unexpectedly alert and strong ( desperately strong?) SweetRobin.

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

 

On 2/14/2021 at 9:38 AM, Seams said:

I think Sweetrobin's fits are attempts to take flight - his arms flail. It could be he is becoming a falcon but I think it is possibly yet another dragon metaphor at work here. We know that there is precedent for the underage lord of the Eyrie to fly on a dragon:

 

I don't get it. I think he just has epilepsy.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 2/8/2021 at 8:44 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Petyr Baelish and Sansa Stark are plotting to steal the child’s inheritance.  He has to for their dirty game to pay off.  There is one mistake on their sinister plans.  Why bother with the creation of a dedicated team of bodyguards for their victim?  It will only make the job harder.

The bodyguard thing really gives away how you're missing like 99% of what is going on. 

[Walda]

On 16/02/2021 at 1:33 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

"Father and I have larger concerns.”

The larger concerns those two have are survival and consolidation of power.

While I would agree that Sansa is concerned with survival and Petyr with consolidation of power, I don't believe Sansa is thinking of these at that time. I think it was more in keeping with her thoughts the last time she had decided what was best for SweetRobin.

Quote

what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true.

(AFfC Ch41 Alayne II)

Sansa feels she is right to raise objections to Maester Colemon's treatment of SweetRobin, even though she believes that Maester Colemon is doing what is best for his patient. Her concern is Lord Arryn, she wants his lieges to see that the little lord is sentient and sane.

I don't agree with her assessment of the situation - I doubt Maester Colemon has his patient's health at heart and I think that Petyr, who is in Sansa's ear about SweetRobin's "cowardice" and sickliness, and impressing on her the need to make him seem less so to the Lords of the Vale, is sending her on a fool's errand. 

We the readers know that SweetRobin's condition was no secret to the Lords of the Vale who attended Tyrion's trial. Sansa is kidding herself (again). Before she ever laid eyes on SweetRobin,  

Quote

All she knew of Robert Arryn was that he was a little boy, and sickly.

(ASoS Ch68 Sansa VII)

But just as she was determined to believe Joffrey was "her prince" long after she had seen

Quote

His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt.

(AGoT Ch 15 Sansa I)

She continues to convince herself that Petyr is looking after SweetRobin's external interests and Maester Coleman his internal interests while what she observes of their behaviour tells me otherwise.

Her own behaviour toward SweetRobin is nurturing, even when her thoughts are not. SweetRobin fears Petyr and throws things at Colemon, but he trusts Alayne...she gives his suspicious little mind reason to trust her. I don't think she sees her own survival as oppositional to SweetRobin's, and I don't think it is.

It is frustrating to me that Sansa is determined to think of Petyr as "father". She knows that Lord Littlefinger arranged her father's arrest and witnessed his execution, and never gave a damn about her until she became the heiress of Winterfell. Just as Petyr took no interest in SweetRobin until he became heir to the Eyrie.

In spite of Alayne's insistence, SweetRobin is not so willing to call Petyr father and trust in his goodness. When what he tells Sansa contradicts with what Petyr tells her, Sansa fears he is going mad (a misplaced loyalty so like her real father would delight Petyr, I am sure). It is a bad sign, because SweetRobin is the one most likely to look out for her and tip her off before Petyr inflicts his next outrage upon her. 

I doubt Petyr really wants SweetRobin dead, I don't think the knights of the Vale would be more inclined to consolidate under the banner of Harry the Squire. He could not control the armies of the Vale as well under Harry as he can as Lord Protector with the Lords Declarant on side, but having Harry will get him Bronze Yohn's co-operation.

Sansa has far more influence over SweetRobin than she will ever have over Harry. She and SweetRobin both are being manipulated as pawns that protect large claims. I don't see any signs that Sansa is gaining agency or becoming a player in her choosing cheeses and playing the Lord Protector's daughter, but if she ever moves beyond being Littlefinger's pawn, her ability to influence SweetRobin is probably her greatest power. She gained it while acting in his interest, and she will lose it if he dies. But there is no sign she is aware of that.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 2/17/2021 at 4:03 AM, Walda said:

While I would agree that Sansa is concerned with survival and Petyr with consolidation of power, I don't believe Sansa is thinking of these at that time. I think it was more in keeping with her thoughts the last time she had decided what was best for SweetRobin.

(AFfC Ch41 Alayne II)

Sansa feels she is right to raise objections to Maester Colemon's treatment of SweetRobin, even though she believes that Maester Colemon is doing what is best for his patient. Her concern is Lord Arryn, she wants his lieges to see that the little lord is sentient and sane.

I don't agree with her assessment of the situation - I doubt Maester Colemon has his patient's health at heart and I think that Petyr, who is in Sansa's ear about SweetRobin's "cowardice" and sickliness, and impressing on her the need to make him seem less so to the Lords of the Vale, is sending her on a fool's errand. 

We the readers know that SweetRobin's condition was no secret to the Lords of the Vale who attended Tyrion's trial. Sansa is kidding herself (again). Before she ever laid eyes on SweetRobin,  

(ASoS Ch68 Sansa VII)

But just as she was determined to believe Joffrey was "her prince" long after she had seen

(AGoT Ch 15 Sansa I)

She continues to convince herself that Petyr is looking after SweetRobin's external interests and Maester Coleman his internal interests while what she observes of their behaviour tells me otherwise.

Her own behaviour toward SweetRobin is nurturing, even when her thoughts are not. SweetRobin fears Petyr and throws things at Colemon, but he trusts Alayne...she gives his suspicious little mind reason to trust her. I don't think she sees her own survival as oppositional to SweetRobin's, and I don't think it is.

It is frustrating to me that Sansa is determined to think of Petyr as "father". She knows that Lord Littlefinger arranged her father's arrest and witnessed his execution, and never gave a damn about her until she became the heiress of Winterfell. Just as Petyr took no interest in SweetRobin until he became heir to the Eyrie.

In spite of Alayne's insistence, SweetRobin is not so willing to call Petyr father and trust in his goodness. When what he tells Sansa contradicts with what Petyr tells her, Sansa fears he is going mad (a misplaced loyalty so like her real father would delight Petyr, I am sure). It is a bad sign, because SweetRobin is the one most likely to look out for her and tip her off before Petyr inflicts his next outrage upon her. 

I doubt Petyr really wants SweetRobin dead, I don't think the knights of the Vale would be more inclined to consolidate under the banner of Harry the Squire. He could not control the armies of the Vale as well under Harry as he can as Lord Protector with the Lords Declarant on side, but having Harry will get him Bronze Yohn's co-operation.

Sansa has far more influence over SweetRobin than she will ever have over Harry. She and SweetRobin both are being manipulated as pawns that protect large claims. I don't see any signs that Sansa is gaining agency or becoming a player in her choosing cheeses and playing the Lord Protector's daughter, but if she ever moves beyond being Littlefinger's pawn, her ability to influence SweetRobin is probably her greatest power. She gained it while acting in his interest, and she will lose it if he dies. But there is no sign she is aware of that.

That's completely the opposite how I (and most people) read it, but so be it

[Seams]

On 2/17/2021 at 4:03 AM, Walda said:

Sansa has far more influence over SweetRobin than she will ever have over Harry. She and SweetRobin both are being manipulated as pawns that protect large claims. I don't see any signs that Sansa is gaining agency or becoming a player in her choosing cheeses and playing the Lord Protector's daughter, but if she ever moves beyond being Littlefinger's pawn, her ability to influence SweetRobin is probably her greatest power. She gained it while acting in his interest, and she will lose it if he dies. But there is no sign she is aware of that.

Actually, my own reading of the Sansa / Sweetrobin relationship is very close to Walda's well-supported description. So I don't know who "most people" might be, but they need to provide citations from the text or other evidence if they want to tear down someone else's thoughtful post. 

The parallels that help to inform us in analyzing the axis of Sansa and Sweetrobin are:

- Catelyn was the sister of Lysa; Sansa wore Lysa's clothes and became the "lady" of the Eyrie after Lysa died. Catelyn and Lysa were both described as having special hair: Catelyn's last thought was the hope that her hair would not be cut; Lysa lost her beauty except for her lovely hair. There is also a bit of confusion about whether the sisters both lost their virginity to Petyr Baelish. I believe the author wants us to equate Catelyn with Lysa and then to see Sansa as the "heir" of both women. The author reinforces this with odd little things such as Lysa breastfeeding little Lord Robert and then Robert trying to breastfeed from Sansa after his mother dies. Merillion trying to rape Sansa but subsequently being portrayed as the spurned lover of Lysa and being blamed for her death. I believe the "trip down the mountain" is another major clue for us: we get a description of Catelyn going up the mountain but we never hear about her trip down the mountain again. Lysa makes a fast, unexpected trip down the mountain (in the parlance of the Eyrie, she flies). Then we get a step-by-step account of Sansa's trip down the mountain. Somehow these pieces of the stories from the three women combine to make a whole. 

- If Lysa = Catelyn, then Sweetrobin = Bran. I've outlined this in another post and others in the forum have provided a good shared foundation of Bran and Sweetrobin in the Osiris / Horus myth (and we all know that Horus is the falcon-headed god). Recall that Isis, the sister-wife of Osiris, reassembles the dismembered parts of her husband so he can take on the new job of ruling the underworld. Horus challenges his uncle, Set, who had murdered his father. Horus wins, of course, and becomes the ruler of the above-ground world. When Sansa works to appease and nurture Sweetrobin, she is symbolically acting as Catelyn would act toward Bran and the way that Isis acts toward Horus. Now we know that the weirwood paste consumed by Bran is weird and magical stuff, but his evolving description of it ends by comparing it to his last kiss from his mother. I think the sweet sleep medicine administered to Sweetrobin should be compared to the paste eaten by Bran and it is important that it is administered to Robert at the direction of Sansa. (There may be another parallel between Bran's paste and the oatmeal that little Lord Robert throws at Colemon.) 

- As I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, the trio of Mya, Sansa and Robert Arryn coming down the mountain together duplicates (or echoes) the trio of Jon Arryn, Ned and Robert Baratheon coming down the mountain together to raise a rebellion against King Aerys. While it would surprise me to directly compare Ned and Petyr Baelish in all things, there are segments of Ned's role that, I believe, the author wants us to compare to Littlefinger. Being a father to Sansa / Alayne is one of them. So we can read Alayne's thoughts about her "father" as having at least two layers of meaning and passages such as this, from that key Alayne II chapter in AFfC where she descends the mountain, take on deeper meaning:

Quote

And yet the thought of leaving frightened her almost as much as it frightened Robert. She only hid it better. Her father said there was no shame in being afraid, only in showing your fear. "All men live with fear," he said. Alayne was not certain she believed that. Nothing frightened Petyr Baelish. He only said that to make me brave. 

We know that Bran and Ned have a conversation in AGoT about the connection between fear and bravery, and about showing a brave face to the world. Finding out that Petyr had a similar conversation with Alayne helps to demonstrate the connection between father Ned and "father" Petyr. She is talking about both of her fathers when she mentions her father. 

- Colemon. This name is clearly connected to the lemon symbolism in the series. We know that Sansa loves lemon cakes and that Sweetrobin starts to love them after he bonds with Sansa / Alayne. So the maester's name might even be interpreted as "co-lemon": the shared love of lemon cakes makes the two cousins co-lemon fans. The shared love of lemons may be the author's way of showing us that Sweetrobin is adapting to the unique nurturing qualities of Sansa / Alayne and, like Horus, that he looks to her as his guide in becoming the god of the above-ground world.

[Aebram]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

There is also a bit of confusion about whether the sisters both lost their virginity to Petyr Baelish.

Is there?

Littlefinger has claimed to have taken both their maidenheads. But I seem to recall a chapter where Catelyn is reminiscing about her first sexual encounter with Ned. It's pretty clear from the wording that this was her first time ever. (Sorry, can't find the specific book/chapter.)

[Seams]

9 hours ago, Aebram said:

Is there?

Littlefinger has claimed to have taken both their maidenheads. But I seem to recall a chapter where Catelyn is reminiscing about her first sexual encounter with Ned. It's pretty clear from the wording that this was her first time ever. (Sorry, can't find the specific book/chapter.)

My word choice was not good here. I think the author often gives us deliberately ambiguous bits of information as a way of showing us that he wants to juxtapose two characters or to conflate multiple characters into an archetype. It does seem as if Catelyn would know whether or not she had slept with Petyr but, as you point out, Petyr has put out the claim that he deflowered both Tully sisters. We like to think that Petyr is the liar. And why would Catelyn lie about this when she is just thinking about the past and has no apparent reason to cover up? But, then again, why does GRRM even give us two versions of the same history? In keeping with his "unreliable narrator" trope, I think the ambiguity about the love between Catelyn and Littlefinger is something he uses to show us the blurred line between Catelyn / Lysa and Ned / Petyr. 

[CamiloRP]

13 minutes ago, Seams said:

My word choice was not good here. I think the author often gives us deliberately ambiguous bits of information as a way of showing us that he wants to juxtapose two characters or to conflate multiple characters into an archetype. It does seem as if Catelyn would know whether or not she had slept with Petyr but, as you point out, Petyr has put out the claim that he deflowered both Tully sisters. We like to think that Petyr is the liar. And why would Catelyn lie about this when she is just thinking about the past and has no apparent reason to cover up? But, then again, why does GRRM even give us two versions of the same history? In keeping with his "unreliable narrator" trope, I think the ambiguity about the love between Catelyn and Littlefinger is something he uses to show us the blurred line between Catelyn / Lysa and Ned / Petyr. 

Because LF thinks he slept with Cat, but it was Lysa.

[Springwatch]

On 2/14/2021 at 5:38 PM, Seams said:

I think Sweetrobin's fits are attempts to take flight - his arms flail. It could be he is becoming a falcon but I think it is possibly yet another dragon metaphor at work here. We know that there is precedent for the underage lord of the Eyrie to fly on a dragon:

The more I think of this, the more I like it. The cloaks are flapping and snapping - sounds like Dany's dragonets. I'm reminded of Waymar's 'living' cloak as well.

In real life, it's impossible that SR's bearskin cloak could flap and snap - a hurricane could do it, but then SR's weight wouldn't hold him to the ground. When GRRM uses impossibilities, I assume the image is important to him.

On 2/19/2021 at 4:42 PM, Seams said:

- Colemon. This name is clearly connected to the lemon symbolism in the series. We know that Sansa loves lemon cakes and that Sweetrobin starts to love them after he bonds with Sansa / Alayne. So the maester's name might even be interpreted as "co-lemon": the shared love of lemon cakes makes the two cousins co-lemon fans. The shared love of lemons may be the author's way of showing us that Sweetrobin is adapting to the unique nurturing qualities of Sansa / Alayne and, like Horus, that he looks to her as his guide in becoming the god of the above-ground world.

The sweet drink from the lemon guy, is echoed with a ton of lemon cakes - a hundred lemon cakes, or a mountain of them. I like the idea of food codes, so whatever's coming to SR, there's going to be a lot of it.

[Rondo]

On 2/10/2021 at 2:29 PM, Jay21 said:

She's complicit. Baelish refers to Robin's death as an inevitability and she doesn't argue the point.  His death is critical to the whole Harry the heir plan and Sansa isn't resisting that (overtly that is.  We have a good reason to believe it won't happen because it was so meticulously foretold, so it's not impossible that Sansa will break from Petyr or is working against him even now, be we have no direct evidence of this yet). Doesn't Sansa even administer the  sweet sleep or whatever to Robin in her TWOW preview chapter?  There may be room for her to be seriously deluding herself about where this ends, but right now she looks to be firmly on team Killrobin.

Sansa knows the plan and that plan includes the removal of Robert Arryn.  So yeah, Sansa is complicit.  She's the center of the plot to take what is his.  She is just as guilty as Littlefinger.