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Widowmaker 811

Little Robin’s Guards

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Petyr Baelish and Sansa Stark are plotting to steal the child’s inheritance.  He has to for their dirty game to pay off.  There is one mistake on their sinister plans.  Why bother with the creation of a dedicated team of bodyguards for their victim?  It will only make the job harder.

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5 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Petyr Baelish and Sansa Stark are plotting to steal the child’s inheritance.

Petyr, sure, but Sansa? When exactly is Sansa plotting? When does she have any agency?

6 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

There is one mistake on their sinister plans.

His. His sinister plans

6 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Why bother with the creation of a dedicated team of bodyguards for their victim?  It will only make the job harder.

Simple. LF is poisoning SweetRobin via maester, who cares about bodyguards. And also, he does need to lure Harry.

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One might argue that Sansa coming up with bodyguards for Sweetrobin indicates that she actually loves the boy and doesn't want him dead. 

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“Why should I wish him dead?” Littlefinger shrugged. “I had no motive. Besides, I am a thousand leagues away ... Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game.”

Honestly, I don't know that Petyr really wants SweetRobin dead. 

He has spun this story full of holes to Sansa,  about how Harry the Heir will inherit the Vale and when she marries him and reveals herself as the heir to Winterfell, the men of the Vale will all go get her Winterfell, and that's why he arranged her betrothal with Anya.

Meanwhile, GRRM is building Harry up to be a thin-mouthed Joffrey.

He won a tourney that the knights of the Vale did not compete in, so that they could name him Champion. Not exactly the next Jaime Lannister, then.

He has already impregnated two pretty common (but not baseborn) girls, getting one married off because he had tired of her and she had put on weight after giving birth.

He has an issue with the Lord Protector being too lowborn for his company, let alone the Lord Protector's bastard, pretty as she may be.

The match is quite as horrid as the one between Joffrey and Sansa, and like the match between Joffrey and Sansa works more to make Eddard and Cersei play nice than for the health and happiness of their children, this has more to do with how Petyr can use Anya to rule the knights of the Vale. 

Petyr wanted Harry as a ward at the Eyrie, perhaps because Bronze Yohn currently had him as a squire at Runestone. Now Anya has agreed to the betrothal, Harry might well prefer to hang around the Lord Protector's household of his own accord. Bronze Yohn has already given him a knighthood, and doesn't have it in his power to give him more (except for more martial arts training). 

Petyr tells Sansa she is clever and lets her take credit for the tourney for SweetRobin's guard, but really, he has manipulated her and SweetRobin into taking credit for the plan that would only happen with his money, contacts, and event planning skills, that brings all the nobility of the Vale to him, and literally has them fighting among themselves to deliver him eight hostages. Plus Harry.

I am not sure SweetRobin is as frail and near death as Petyr wants Sansa to suppose. Maester Coleman seems to be experimenting with the pharmacuticals, and has given SweetRobin something similar to what the Kindly Man gave Arya when she warged into the cat.

Neither Lysa's breast milk nor Maester Coleman's seditives seem to have any effect on the shaking sickness, but the fact that the child has survived so much blood letting and leeching shows me he has a strong constitution, and explains why he is stunted, pale, and slow to get out of bed of a morning.

Marrying Sansa to Hardyng would be a bad move on Petyr's part. Just as Harry can turn his back on Bronze Yohn when he has given him all he had to give, he could turn on Petyr when he had the Vale and the Lady of Winterfell.

Likewise, Sansa is at the moment tied to him because he is protecting her from King Tommen's attainders, and she is pretending to be his daughter, and she is living with what she believes to be her only living relation apart from Jon Snow, Lord and Lady Tully, and possibly Blackfish.

Marrying her to Harry and killing SweetRobin and having her reveal her real identity to the knights of the Vale would be getting rid of the three main holds he has on her, his hidden dagger. And Harry. And would anihilate SweetRobin, his trophy dagger. 

Also not convinced Sansa would go so far as to kill her cousin. She does go along with what Petyr wants in a heedless way that reminds me that Arya and Jon were the bright ones, and Sansa is more like a less lucky Uncle Edmure. Still, if there came a day when she became aware that she was complicit in killing her cousin, I think she would recoil in horror, not gleefully go on with Littlefinger's grand plan.

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Sansa is the epitomy of selfish.  She will poison Sweetrobyn if it will benefit her.  Littlefinger wants power but he never takes the straight line to his goal.  He's playing with Sansa and Harry.  The time will come when he will no longer have need of his accomplices and do with them what he did to Dontos.  And the guards will be loyal to the coin master.  Him. 

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10 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Petyr Baelish and Sansa Stark are plotting to steal the child’s inheritance.  He has to for their dirty game to pay off.  There is one mistake on their sinister plans.  Why bother with the creation of a dedicated team of bodyguards for their victim?  It will only make the job harder.

Baelish wants hostages, he's using the tourney as an excuse to get some.

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The competition for the honor of playing security men to Robert is a trick.  Petyr Baelish is using this to build his own private army.  It would look suspect if he had called in mercenaries.  Sansa doesn't have the brains to form an effective plot.  She has to bond herself to a mover like Petyr Baelish in the hopes of a glamorous life.  She is a pawn in their plans but she's fine with that because she wants glamour and glory.  Both of which she cannot get for herself.  She has already started poisoning Robert.

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2 hours ago, Rondo said:

She has already started poisoning Robert.

PROVE IT!

Where in the text is it even hinted at that Sansa is poisoning Robert?

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Lord's guards can't stop somebody on the inside from poisoning him.  The guards are for show. 

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On 2/8/2021 at 9:52 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Petyr, sure, but Sansa? When exactly is Sansa plotting? When does she have any agency?

She's complicit. Baelish refers to Robin's death as an inevitability and she doesn't argue the point.  His death is critical to the whole Harry the heir plan and Sansa isn't resisting that (overtly that is.  We have a good reason to believe it won't happen because it was so meticulously foretold, so it's not impossible that Sansa will break from Petyr or is working against him even now, be we have no direct evidence of this yet). Doesn't Sansa even administer the  sweet sleep or whatever to Robin in her TWOW preview chapter?  There may be room for her to be seriously deluding herself about where this ends, but right now she looks to be firmly on team Killrobin.

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15 hours ago, Jay21 said:

She's complicit. Baelish refers to Robin's death as an inevitability and she doesn't argue the point. 

They don't have to be intent on murder to believe that a sickly little boy won't live to adulthood - they live in a pseudo-medieval society with limited medical intervention.

Quote

His death is critical to the whole Harry the heir plan and Sansa isn't resisting that (overtly that is.  We have a good reason to believe it won't happen because it was so meticulously foretold, so it's not impossible that Sansa will break from Petyr or is working against him even now, be we have no direct evidence of this yet). 

Quote

 

You may look at Robert's death as being 'critical' to LF's plans, I think it is more likely it is an assumed obstacle that LF is planning around.

LF is Robert's regent. He has direct control of the Vale so long as the boy is alive. And so long as he doesn't piss the other Vale Lords off to the point they remove him at swordpoint, that will remain the case for years until Robert comes of age. That is plan A.

Harry is already on the cusp of manhood, and has own loyalties. He is more likely to look to Lady Waynwood as chief advisor than LF. So LF's plan B is to tie this faction to him - by the proposed marriage.

LF best scenario is that little Robert lives many years, but that Waynwood / HtH faction remain convinced he is close to dying so that Harry & Alayne can step in and rule when the day comes.

Quote

Doesn't Sansa even administer the  sweet sleep or whatever to Robin in her TWOW preview chapter?  There may be room for her to be seriously deluding herself about where this ends, but right now she looks to be firmly on team Killrobin.

Another thing that can be looked at it in two ways: On the one hand Robert is Lord of the Vale and is being exploited by LF and Alayne so that they can use his power. On the other hand Robert is Lord of the Vale and has a duty to protect his land and people, and LF and Alayne are stepping up to make sure those duties are fulfilled - the sweet sleep is used to prevent shaking fits that will make little Lord Robert look even weaker before his people, at a time they need strong leadership.

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Petyr getting some guards for Robert might protect him at some point, when he might get accused for murdering him. At least it would, if he'd ever get there, but I don't think he will. At this point, I don't see how Harry can end up being his puppet. This all looks like he's doing it for Sansa, but he doesn't, I think. Nor Robert's death will come as he plans, I think. 

On the other hand, it is amoral from Sansa not to give a damn about Robert's future death, she should realise the situation he's got into. I also doubt the Lords of the Vale would be happy once they find out how Lysa was murdered, and they might see Sansa guilty. That might even obligate Sansa later to stick to LF's plan, because I doubt he'll remain fine with him murdering Robert. I hope he won't.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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Sansa doesn't need to poison Sweet Robyn. She can grow into one capable of manipulating him as desired.

Until Daenerys shows up with her dragons and he becomes infatuated with her, wanting to be taken for a ride like Ronnel during Aegon's Conquest.

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On 2/9/2021 at 12:53 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

PROVE IT!

Where in the text is it even hinted at that Sansa is poisoning Robert?

Don’t have access to my ebooks right now so small quotes, but she’s present when the maester tells LF that he can’t use too much and then forces him to do it again later:

"Sweets. Cakes and pies, jams and jellies, honey on the comb. Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking."
"A pinch?" The apple in the maester's throat moved up and down as he swallowed. "One small pinch . . . perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try . . ."
——————
"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleepwill prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."
"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."
 
"I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?"
"He was sniffling," Alayne admitted, "but I saw no blood."

———

more importantly the next part basically says or implies that it’s better for SR to die than her or LF

 

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On 2/10/2021 at 12:29 PM, Jay21 said:

She's complicit. Baelish refers to Robin's death as an inevitability and she doesn't argue the point. 

Everybody thinks he is going to die. 

Even Jaime says flatly that Robert won't "live long enough to breed", and it's not homicide he's thinking about.  So a non-reaction is expected.   Sansa knows perfectly well that Robert is in poor health.

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Don’t have access to my ebooks right now so small quotes, but she’s present when the maester tells LF that he can’t use too much and then forces him to do it again later:

"Sweets. Cakes and pies, jams and jellies, honey on the comb. Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking."
"A pinch?" The apple in the maester's throat moved up and down as he swallowed. "One small pinch . . . perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try . . ."
——————
"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleepwill prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."
"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."
 
"I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?"
"He was sniffling," Alayne admitted, "but I saw no blood."

———

more importantly the next part basically says or implies that it’s better for SR to die than her or LF

 

Sansa knows little about sweetsleep.  What she does know is that it helps the shaking.  Robert needs to get down the  mountain, and not unconscious (that would make him a laughingstock), so she gives him some so he doesn't fall of his horse, and the mountain as well.  It's a tradeoff. 

She also doesn't know the master well, and may think that he is over-reacting.  That said, she has agreed not to give him more.

It also isn't in her character.  While occasionally selfish, especially in the beginning, she has yet to deliberately harm another person, and I don't see her starting with Robert Arryn.  And any ambition for power, especially for its own sake, I think has been thoroughly beaten out of her by Cersei and Joffrey.  At this point, she is doing what she can to help Sweetrobin and make him stronger, not harm him.

Edited by Nevets

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13 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

"A pinch?" The apple in the maester's throat moved up and down as he swallowed. "One small pinch . . . perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try . . ."

——————
"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."
 

This statement, the bolded, cannot be true.

The waif says three pinches will give 'the sleep that does not end', meaning death. But still SR goes on, and he's getting more than that. There are some solid theories out there that part of SR's bad health is long-term addiction.

So why is Colemon making false statements?

Edited by Springwatch
word

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27 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

So why is Colemon making false statements?

To make sure nobody suspects anything when SR kicks the bucket?

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