Let's catalogue and discuss the "Living Dead"!

[Jay21]

What happened to Dany in Drogo's pyre? Does she qualify? Did Davos drown at the Blackwater?  Did Tyrion Drown in the Rhoyne? The drowned men drown and then get brought back with cpr.  Do they qualify? This whole story might be populated by zombies.

[hiemal]

4 hours ago, Fencer said:

Might Roose Bolton fall into one of these categories as well?

The Bolt-On theory? I'm not a proponent, personally, but it certainly bears examination and discussion. Another addition to the OP!

 

[hiemal]

31 minutes ago, Jay21 said:

What happened to Dany in Drogo's pyre? Does she qualify?

Great question! I'm on the fence on this one- what do you think? Regardless, another OP addition!

 

32 minutes ago, Jay21 said:

 Did Davos drown at the Blackwater? 

I'm thinking probably not, but it was brought up earlier in the thread and will be added to OP. I personally think that his "rebirth" is more of a symbolic one- the opposite of the "counterfit kings"?

34 minutes ago, Jay21 said:

Did Tyrion Drown in the Rhoyne?

Again, I personally think not, but am adding to OP. I think that he was called to an audience with the Shrouded Lord and was returned more or less intact... so another symbolic rebirth?

36 minutes ago, Jay21 said:

The drowned men drown and then get brought back with cpr.  Do they qualify?

I think so, but on what level? Purely thematic and symbolic or does the Drowned God have tentacles in their brains?

I tinfoil that the Drowned God is a grove of sunken (drowned) weirwoods that have been corrupted so I think there is the potential for such influence.

38 minutes ago, Jay21 said:

This whole story might be populated by zombies

Right!? I think it all ties in, ultimately, with the Malady of the Seasons and the idea that magic really is a hazard to everyone.

[Walda]

@Seams mention of the Shadow Tower reminds me that at the Nightfort we also have the seventy-nine sentinals, who were sealed in the ice alive (and Lord Ryswell, who was sealed in the ice when he died). Arson Ice Axe, and the 'prentice boys. All these might be just ghost stories but there is also the Black Gate.

The black gate has a face, eyes, lips. It speaks, weeps.  It surely has some kind of animus. I am guessing it belongs in the same catergory as BloodRaven.

ETA: Now you mention the Dustin barrows, there is that thing where the stone kings of Winter have to have steel swords on their laps to bar them from going upstairs and seeing whats up

[hiemal]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

What about the undying Samwell Tarly? Drowned by his father, chained to a wall for 3 days, attacked by wights in the Fist, collapsed of exhaustion, survived the attack of a WW, survived the mutiny at Craster's keep, survived another wight attack and then drowned again in Braavos.

Awesome! I hadn't even considered that! I wonder if there should be a separate category just for the resuscitated drowned?

[hiemal]

4 hours ago, oldbus said:

This really made me stop and think.  To stop this thread getting out of control I think we need to keep ourselves to those we know have some claim to actually being dead or nearly dead at some point.  I'm not certain we have evidence for Roose Bolton, but there is so much death imagery surrounding him that Fencer's post really struck me.

The Flayed Man sigil, his grey eyes ('ghost grey' or 'dirty ice', like moons), paleness, stillness, quietness etc could all be seen as associated with death.  His leeches link him with blood (see above).  Do we know what happens to those leeches full of blood, by the way?

Bolton gives an aura of ice death/undeath, even if it can't be proved he's of the living dead.

I'm pretty sure there's a theory I've read about House Bolton being led by a vampyre.  I'm not certain how that would work myself (I'm sure vampyres are supposed to live for centuries and that would be noticed) - but this is GRRM's world, so it could be possible.

What about House Dustin? I think they might reek even more of the undead what with the barrows and all. If not undead, perhaps they simply know things about the undead that others have forgotten...

[hiemal]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Gads @hiemal, this is a great discussion.  I'm on break from work now and will get to some expansion for you.   I want to throw Bloodraven & Melissandre in for your consideration.  Yes, I've already googled if mushrooms can grow on living skin.  They cannot.  Some can grow on dead skin though!.  Back later to see what's going on.  

Bloodraven is the quintessential "enthroned greenseer", Larch Vader- more tree than man now, twisted and broken.

/giggle

I didn't include Melisandre, because I'm not sure of her status- if she is a wight it would be great to have a first-hand account but I think it is also possible that she is becoming one bit by bit, bartering and burning pieces of her soul bit by bit for power rather than in one, phoenix-like conflagration.

How does she compare with the Black Flame, for example? It seems his spark wasn't extinguished by a good drowning, so was he already well along the process?

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

How I have sorted it:

Blood magic; Khal Drogo was a blood Wight made by MMD > The Mountain thanks to connection should be considered same. Faceless Men uses blood as we have seen by Arya, which along with it being founded in the blood magic central makes it blood magic as well.

 

Green magic; Greenseers and Undying could be seen as related considering their close relation to trees, or the Undying representing a degraded and much less powerful form of the same green magic. The Undying sees vague symbolic visions more en par with Jojen's dreams rather than the absolute documentary info Bran gets while greenseeing Bloodraven. 

 

Water magic; Drowned God, IB, Patchface, Lovecraftian sistermen, Lonely Lights water-wargs. 

 

Fire magic; Melisandre, Thoros and Beric. Lady Stoneheart. Fire wyrms, whatever happened to Aerea. Dany surviving the Pyre.

 

Crossovers;

dragons and Targs/Valyrians (fire and blood magic)

Bloodraven (greenseer now but practiced bloodmagic according to Egg, of Targ decent so fire as well)

Euron (green magic from shade of the evening along with blood magic and or water magic in sample chapter sacrifice)

I like the elemental aspect of this. Mother Rhoyne and the Stone Men would be Water Magic.

Where is Air Magic, though? The only reference I can remember is a passing mention of Aeromancers in one of Dany's chapters. I suspect that the Deep Ones and K'Dath are tied up in this, and I break down the elements a bit differently than you do (you have the advantage in keeping it simple, that's for sure) so I'd like to hear some more!

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Aebram said:

I do like the idea of developing a Unified Theory of Magic.  But let's not spread this net too wide ...

Here in the real world, a person can be medically dead for a short time, and then be revived with most or all of their memories and abilities intact.  No magic is required.  I think Tyrion's drowning goes in that category.

I think most of the drownings probably do- Sam, Davos, Tyrion, and probably most of the Drowned Men. There's enough uncanniness around that I think it should be at least considered.

 

2 hours ago, Aebram said:

As far as we know, Khal Drogo never actually died.  He was still alive when Mirri Maz Duur started her ritual, and he was still alive when she finished.  His condition afterwards is not similar to wights, or to any of the other pseudo-alive people such as Beric, Gregor, etc.  MMD even says that she preserved his life.  That was the lesson she wanted to teach Dany: "See what life is worth when everything else has been taken."  And again, there are real-life examples of people who are alive, but in a vegetative state.

I agree- I think that what ultimately happened with Drogo was his soul was used to wake a dragon's egg- but a vegetative state is a kind of "living death" so I think that for completeness it needs to be here.

 

[Sigella]

33 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I like the elemental aspect of this. Mother Rhoyne and the Stone Men would be Water Magic.

Where is Air Magic, though? The only reference I can remember is a passing mention of Aeromancers in one of Dany's chapters. I suspect that the Deep Ones and K'Dath are tied up in this, and I break down the elements a bit differently than you do (you have the advantage in keeping it simple, that's for sure) so I'd like to hear some more!

The ice magic (white walkers and wights) could be air, I suppose. They're certainly not water.

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I was gonna say ... How much time do you have? But I respect that there has to be a limit - if we counted all of the symbolic deaths, nearly every major character would fit the category in some way. For instance, people have pointed out the John Barleycorn symbolism around both Jon Snow and Bran, both of whom feed corn to black birds. That legendary character symbolizes the harvest and the death of the harvest king. We see Bran experience some clear harvest king death moments at the harvest feast at Winterfell after drinking from his father's chalice. But his "death" is probably not real enough to fit the discussion here.

Quote

"He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall."...

ADwD

That could be an entire thread, right there- and ties in with what I think it all means and winter sacrifice, etc.

2 hours ago, Seams said:

he Shadow Tower really intrigues me as a possible recycling plant for dead brothers in the Night's Watch. I think many of the dead guys are posted at the Shadow Tower and that they continue to serve along the Wall. I suspect that Qhorin, Stonesnake and the others in the ranging party with Jon Snow were already dead when they began their scouting mission. 

All right, I'm hooked. Reel me in!

2 hours ago, Seams said:

Some dead people are reborn in other bodies: I suspect Maester Aemon will come back through the baby Aemon Steelsong.

Some dead people are reborn as dragons, I suspect. I think there is a connection between souls and dragons and names...

Just a tidbit, but I suspect that Daenerys might translate into Common as "Dreamfire" for example...

And of course, Drogo reborn as Drogon?

2 hours ago, Seams said:

do think that Lady Dustin has a key role in controlling death and rebirth. She is mad that Ned brought back her red horse but left her husband's bones at the Prince's Pass. But her husband's early death puts her in place as the Lady of the Barrowlands. If she is a sort of symbolic ruler of the Underworld, with the power to revive dead people, her visit to Winterfell's crypt may open a major can of Stark whupass in the next couple of books. She certainly seems to have revived Theon during her time with him in the crypt: he stops being Reek and resumes being Theon after their therapy session. 

She is particularly interesting as she is a also a ryswell- I'm struck by the image of her husband's horse being back riderless. An undead centaur, a nuckalavee?

2 hours ago, Seams said:

But we were talking about limits. Restricting myself to the more literal dead people, I would add these characters to your list:

Ser Mandon Moore. I think he is literally dead, although we don't know how he came to be dead. He may be in the story to foreshadow Ser Robert Strong, the next notable dead guy on the kings guard. Ser Mandon tries to kill Tyrion at a bridge, which may be a symbol of dragging someone down to the underworld. (Or up from the underworld, I suppose.) Pod ends up pushing Ser Mandon into the water and we assume he drowns but maybe he just assumes a new identity in some way.

Interesting. I'll be pondering that one. How about Illyn Payne?

2 hours ago, Seams said:

Brienne, Ser Hyle Hunt and Podrick Payne. I think these characters require reviving after their hanging by Lady Stoneheart and the BwB. We get an account of Ser Thoros of Myr feeding Brienne some humble fare that she considers to be the tastiest food she has ever eaten. Since Thoros revived Beric, we can probably draw a parallel to his revival of Brienne. We'll have to wait until the next books to see how Ser Hyle and Pod are affected by their death and rebirth. 

Ouch, still too soon, but it must be considered.

 

[Springwatch]

44 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Where is Air Magic, though?

Spirits of the air, mentions from Sandor and Dany (the magic ointment).

Also, maybe Damphair is using air magic in his kiss of life? It would echo Thoros' fire breathing act on Beric. But if life is a flame, how can it also be air? Or water?

ETA

I just remembered Syrio saying men were just bags of water, so maybe water is life also.

[hiemal]

18 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Spirits of the air, mentions from Sandor and Dany (the magic ointment).

Sandor- lol, I missed that one. Dany- I forgot that one- and it feels important, too- or at least it reminds of the story of the midwife to the fairies, who spoiler alert, gets her eye stabbed out when she meets a fairy who should be invisible and he asks which eye she can see him out of (o many one-eyed people in the story). Both of these imply that air is associated with invisibility, which I guess is why don't see more of it. We'll find out more when someone barks a knee on an invisible secret.

[Tucu]

10 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Sandor- lol, I missed that one. Dany- I forgot that one- and it feels important, too- or at least it reminds of the story of the midwife to the fairies, who spoiler alert, gets her eye stabbed out when she meets a fairy who should be invisible and he asks which eye she can see him out of (o many one-eyed people in the story). Both of these imply that air is associated with invisibility, which I guess is why don't see more of it. We'll find out more when someone barks a knee on an invisible secret.

We also have the Morning ghosts from Old Nan's tales that are mist carried by the wind (so maybe water and air elementals):

Quote

wisps of pale mist raced across the field, flying from the sun on wings of wind. Morning ghosts, she had heard Old Nan call them once, spirits returning to their graves. And Renly one of them now

 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Jay21 said:

What happened to Dany in Drogo's pyre? Does she qualify? Did Davos drown at the Blackwater?  Did Tyrion Drown in the Rhoyne? The drowned men drown and then get brought back with cpr.  Do they qualify? This whole story might be populated by zombies.

What happened to Dany in Drogo's pyre exactly.  When you take a closer look possible death is apparent for several characters.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

Again, I personally think not, but am adding to OP. I think that he was called to an audience with the Shrouded Lord and was returned more or less intact... so another symbolic rebirth?

In a cursed place? Sounds on par for Tyrion.

About Dany, Drogo's funeral pyre and the birth of the dragons and Dany herself coming out of the flames has a lot of symbolic connections to Summerhall.

[Curled Finger]

19 hours ago, hiemal said:

I'll break down what as I see as the different types and a few thoughts on each, but I'd love to hear your thoughts- particularly what it all means in connection with the overall story.

1. Wights

These guys seem to be "created" by the Others and seem to be incapable of speech but they must be capable of some independent thought, as the two who were brought through the Wall to Castle Black (and presumably beyond the direct control of any White Walkers and presumably retain some memory of their former lives as going straight after the Lord Commander instead of just attacking whatever they saw until overwhelmed is beyond the stereotypical "brains brains" zombie.

The change in eye color is interesting and could represent anything from the animating power of Ice magic to my own shiny tinfoil, that the Others have liquid oxygen for blood and are using blood magic to crate their army. Reverse vampirism? Pretty out there...

1a Coldhands

Who is he and how did he end up like this? He seems very close to an ice wight, but at least some free will (probably? Unless he's just being mind-controlled remotely by BR or someone else), the ability to speak, and non-blue eyes.

My guess is he is one of the Last hero's fallen companions, raised by the Others to used against the LH but spared that by being soul-locked into the dog that is mentioned as one of the companions.

2. Fire Wights

That seems to be the most popular term for those brought back by the power of R'hlorr. We have quite a few examples of this kind, so we know that they can speak (when their bodies physically allow it) and reason. They retain their identities, although fire consumes:

It seems possible to me that the bodies of those brought back slowly heal- Stoneheart seems almost entirely incapable of speech at the beginning of  Feast and more vocal at the end, but maybe I'm misreading that or reading too much into what is there.

Has anyone in recorded history secretly been a fire wight? Personally, I suspect maegor the Cruel.

2a Moqorro

Was the Black Flame extinguished and then re-kindled after his dunking?

I suspect that he burned hot enough to not need a re-light.

2b Melisandre

Is her diminished need for food and sleep due to being a wight?

Personally, I think not- but I think she is becoming one, or like one, piecemeal.

2c Daenerys

I admit I'm intrigued by the idea that she actually died on the pyre, but ultimately I think it unlikely. It seems to me be its own thing and doesn't fit any of the others that we've seen. She seems mortal, at least, and still heir to all the heartaches and natural shocks that accompany it.
 

3. Enthroned Greenseers

Bloodraven and the CotF greenseers that Bran encounters seem to me to be in a kind of living death, so I think they belong here. The are immobile, but Bloodraven at least can speak. How long someone can "survive" like this is unclear.

They stand in direct opposition (I think) with

4. The Undying

I think the presence of the Shade-of-the-Evening trees (corrupted weirwood, imho) and their being enthroned links them to the greenseers in the same way that the wights and firewights seem to be.

It looks like they were "linked" through the corrupt heart rather than physically linked to the trees, but my tinfoil is that the Heart is that of a dragon that was poisoned with shade-of-the-evening.

5. Patchface

He doesn't seem to have any recollection of his previous life, but he sure can sing.

Who brought him back? I think he's on the wrong side of Westeros to be the work of the Drowned God. I think it was probably the work of Merlings, but since there's no actual confirmation that they are even a real thing that's pretty tentative- it also leaves us with no idea what motive they might have. Whatever brings the most the most the sea battles, I guess, so they can have their own Feast..

Or is he just brain-damaged from oxygen deprivation? Given the accuracy of his prophecies I kind of doubt this one, but it has to be mentioned.

5a Davos Seaworth

He "drowned" in the Battle of Blackwater and was later "executed" at White Harbor.

He claims his salvation came from the mother, but given his location and the battle that brought him to the rock in Blackwater Bay I would pick the merlings. He's not mad, or prone to prophecy, so I think his rebirth might be symbolic- exchanging his sons, his fingerbones, and his confidence in his king for something new,

6. Damphair and his Drowned Men

TBH, they seem indistinguishable from folks who were simply brought back with artificial respiration- but I think it needs to be considered that they might actually be revenants and under the mental influence of the Drowned God.

7. The Mountain

Is Ser Robert Strong the result of Blood Magic or is Qyburn Westeros' Dr. Frankenstein? Since Qyburn apparently knows Marwin the Mage who knows Mirri Maaz Duur it seems like its probably Blood Magic to me, but you never know...

8. The Hound

Did he just get better or was he brought back by the power of the Seven? In a discussion on living death, at least, I am going with the second option. We'll have to wait to see what the new Sandor is like.

9. Khal Drogo

Is this the same process that brought back the Mountain? Death-in-life?

10. The Faces of the Faceless Men

This one is obviously pretty different, but I think that when a Face is worn, that person does in way live again, at least their semblance does, and apparently portions of their memories.

11. The Shrouded Lord and the Stone Men

This one is pure tinfoil. Quick rundown, the upraised hand that Tyrion see from the Shy Maid is not just very improbably placed statue (who puts a statue in the middle of a river- and the presence of the bridge right there shows that this was the course of the river even when the city was alive and more or less at the same level- and how could it possibly weather so many centuries of flowing water?) but the Shrouded Lord himself- the first Stone Man. The Stone Men return to the Rhoyne and jump in, where they basically keep accruing layers like a pearl, getting bigger and bigger.

11b Tyrion Lannister

Did Tyrion drown in the Rhoyne before his interview with the Shrouded Lord?

Personally, I feel like its going to make more than a literal drowning to make the Imp change enough to be reborn.

12. The Dead Starks in the Crypts of Winterfell

Maybe? Are the legends about using iron to keep them from wandering true? Do the Dustins, as Barrowlords,  know anything about this?

12a Roose Bolton

Is he a vampire?

13. The Counterfit Kings

We have two great examples of false undead- Renly being impersonated at the Battle of Blackwater (which always reminds of reverse Achilles and Pasicrates, only it's not even actually Loras...) and Cleon's maggoty corpse.

14. The Black Gate

Not sure where to stick this, but I think the Black Gate certainly involved a human sacrifice in order to create a separate pact with magic of the Wall so maybe this created after the Wall was, so despite my previous argument that the Black Gate may have been one of the LH's companions, perhaps this was done later, say during the time of Night's King, when Castle Black was in enemy hands and a secret method of entry or exit was needed...

What does it mean?

It seems like a recurring thematic element, in terms of bringing back the dead. To me it seems an unenviable state, unsurprising given my overall takeaway that magic is invasive force. I also think we are heading towards some kind of "final" or "correct" sacrifice that might, like some kind of ancient pagan winter blood ritual, bring the true spring.

Did I miss any undead? Bring in too many? Share some tinfoil!

 

Well I sure meant to snip and snip but didn't get very far due to those neurons flitting about now.  Thanks for that!  I can dream up a comment for each line, but will try to restrain my verbosity and excitement.  Just some footnotes and musings for your ponderance.  

A look at historical Targs with an eye to possibly enchanted Targs is a fascinating prospect.  When you get around to composing some more wonderful tin foil I hope you will consider that the Dance of The Dragons is possibly the last we see of the magical fire Targs.  To go completely full circle with you, I submit that those sphinx babies may be some tell on who your historical fire wights could be.  Just a thought, but your Maegor sure fits into it.  Is the Sphinx the riddle or the answer?  

When I try to think rationally about the dead and nearly dead, rationale seems to stand behind me where I can't really see it anymore.  With Moqorro and others I try to hold it in front of me.  A real honest to goodness human being couldn't survive some of these spectacular deaths.  No one could survive underwater for 3 days or a blazing pyre.  No human being has lived to several hundred years or survived 7 deaths including hanging and arrows in eyes.  It's not humanly possible.  This is where I have to bend to magical being.  There is something they are born with (Dany?), learn (Melisandre) or acquire at the point of or shortly into death (Davos, Beric).  I think in some way out ways Patchface resembles Lady Stoneheart.  I know you love some sweet beats so I will ask if you have noticed if Patchface has improved at all though out the book?    It's really interesting that LSH gets better.   It's flat out weird, really. 

Are you thinking the Drowned god is a bad guy? 

Want to add Jon to both dead Starks in the Crypts and Counterfiet Kings for his portrayal as a ghost to frighten the smaller kids.  What does that if anything at all, have to say about Jon? 

Great topic, Brother.  

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

What about Tyrion? He's not dead, but he did drown and was brought back by a septa or a "septa" who forced the water out from his lungs, likely using the same technique used by the drowned priests. And he could be turning to stone from the inside out and he wouldn't even know it. 

I wonder, would a wight be able to stick around for that long without eventually rotting away? The wights are animated, but as far as we know, there's nothing preserving them. When Bran is in Summer's skin, he gets a whiff of rot from Coldhands. 

The Ghost of High Heart calls Beric, His Grace the Lord of Corpses and she can smell the stink of death on him. 

Because I always have to work hard when trying to keep up with you...I like survival stories.  Bodies frozen in very cold places, like maybe north of the Wall have been found after 30 and 40 years in near pristine condition.  Seems they just freeze up like in ice cubes.  Since we are going back a few thousand years for the wights not to rot away, I'm thinking dinosaurs or mammoths have been found encapsulated in ice.  Not sure of the condition or how human decay actually works, but if flesh dies in freezing or below freezing temperature it seems to me it could just hang in stasis forever if undisturbed.   Just a thought.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

I agree- I think that what ultimately happened with Drogo was his soul was used to wake a dragon's egg- but a vegetative state is a kind of "living death" so I think that for completeness it needs to be here.

Or is it a sort of reverse skin changing?  Though Drogo and the dragon eggs are pretty complacent before Drogo's death it was Dany who ended his life and brought the eggs to hatch.  The act was no doubt a blood sacrifice but the whole thing rather reminds me of Bran and Hodor--stronger will over weaker will? 

[Jay21]

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

submit that those sphinx babies may be some tell on who your historical fire wights could be.  Just a thought, but your Maegor sure fits into it.  Is the Sphinx the riddle or the answer?  

This is good.  I thought that it may be an indication that these guys were some form of bloodmage or would be bloodmage, just because their offspring was Rhaego like. Wights might fit better. Maegor certainly could have been ressurected, if anyone could have been that is, and Visenya was supposed to have been using magic in her later years, but we don't read much about what she was using it for.