Why wasn't Robb betrothed by the beginning of the story?

[dsjj251]

Already stated in thread. 

[dsjj251]

10 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Yes. Yes I do. Text proofs, foreshadowings and quotes are clues. 

No, 

You are using 1 assumption as fact to "prove" another assumption. 

While I dont have a problem with that logic, you dont have enough evidence to make that claim here. 




 

[The Young Maester]

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

Thus Lorra and Melantha doesn't fit into the usual pattern of marriages present in the family tree of Starks. Though, are they, really? Not if Lorra is Sarra Stark's daughter, and if Melantha is also a partial Stark by blood.

Cregan had 4 daughters by alysanne. So it is possible that one of them married into the blackwoods.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

4 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

No, 

You are using 1 assumption as fact to "prove" another assumption. 

While I dont have a problem with that logic, you dont have enough evidence to make that claim here. 

Nevertheless for something to be a theory it needs to have some connection with the books. Things out of nothing is called fanfiction or crackpot.

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Cregan had 4 daughters by alysanne. So it is possible that one of them married into the blackwoods.

Yes, I think so, and that daughter is Mariah.

Mariah Stark + Blackwood husband = Melissa Blackwood + Aegon IV = Mya Rivers + Blackwood husband = Melantha Blackwood + Stark husband.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Yes, I think so, and that daughter is Mariah.

Mariah Stark + Blackwood husband = Melissa Blackwood + Aegon IV = Mya Rivers + Blackwood husband = Melantha Blackwood

Please, give me a single quote supporting those two.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Please, give me a single quote supporting those two.

Who?

Also - give me a single quote supporting that R+L=J.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Please, give me a single quote supporting those two.

Who?

The two bolded passages I quoted.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Yes, I think so, and that daughter is Mariah.

Mariah Stark + Blackwood husband = Melissa Blackwood + Aegon IV = Mya Rivers + Blackwood husband = Melantha Blackwood + Stark husband.

 

3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Also - give me a single quote supporting that R+L=J.

With pleasure

Quote

Ned thought about his children, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon

Quote

He remembered Lyanna dying in a bed of blood

Cat thinks how Ned must have loved Jon's mother fiercely and soon after Ned thinks how he loved Lyanna with all his heart

Quote

Let them grow up as close as brothers, with only love between them

And that's just direct quotes. The mountain of circumstantial evidence is enormous, but let's just stick to quotes.

Now, give me one, ONE quote supporting that Melissa Blackwood's mom was a Stark or that Mya Rivers married a Blackwood.

[Angel Eyes]

12 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 

Cat thinks how Ned must have loved Jon's mother fiercely and soon after Ned thinks how he loved Lyanna with all his heart

 

I don’t know, I’d pause at betrothing my sister to someone I know wouldn’t be right for her. Ned knew that Lyanna wouldn’t stand for Robert’s philandering behavior and still suggested it to his father. It’s a wonder Lyanna didn’t become like Cersei, more snake now than man, twisted and evil.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

21 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I don’t know, I’d pause at betrothing my sister to someone I know wouldn’t be right for her. Ned knew that Lyanna wouldn’t stand for Robert’s philandering behavior and still suggested it to his father. It’s a wonder Lyanna didn’t become like Cersei, more snake now than man, twisted and evil.

Ned is an artist at deluding himself into thinking people are kind and noble.

[Megorova]

5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Quote

Ned thought about his children, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon

Quote

He remembered Lyanna dying in a bed of blood

Cat thinks how Ned must have loved Jon's mother fiercely and soon after Ned thinks how he loved Lyanna with all his heart

Quote

Let them grow up as close as brothers, with only love between them

And that's just direct quotes. The mountain of circumstantial evidence is enormous, but let's just stick to quotes.

You know, that's really funny. Those people that don't believe in R+L=J say that Ned didn't thought then about Jon amongst his other children, because at that moment he thought only about his legitimate children, or with Jon leaving Winterfell to join Night's Watch, he wasn't anymore concidered by Ned as his son/his problem, he was already off Ned's hands at that point in time. How exactly, Ned remembering Lyanna dying in a bed of blood, is connected in any way to Jon? According to the books - Jon is Ned's bastard. Cat thinking this, Ned thinking that, is also not an evidence. Ned wanting for his legitimate child to grow up as a brother with his illigitimate child is nothing out of the ordinary. Etc. None of that proves anything. 

5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Now, give me one, ONE quote supporting that Melissa Blackwood's mom was a Stark or that Mya Rivers married a Blackwood.

All that, what you wrote as "evidence" is not evidence, it proves NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY nothing. Though, those readers who are not ignorant fools, see that in the books there are a lot of INDIRECT elements that point out to the POSSIBILITY that Jon Snow COULD BE not Ned's bastard, but rather Lyanna's child fathered by Rhaegar.

And same as those indirect clues, that support R+L=J, there are also INDIRECT clues that support M/M/M/M (Mariah, Melissa, Mya, Melantha). (I marked those clues with (...), there are 10 of them).

Amongst characters in ASOIAF and its companion books, there are only two Mariahs, it's Mariah Stark, Cregan's daughter, and Mariah Martell, wife of Daeron II Targaryen.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?search=mariah&go=Go

"

Errata of The World of Ice & Fire

Spellings of Robar Baratheon and Mariah Martell's names are changed to Rogar and Myriah in later prints.^[133]

"

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Errata_of_Fire_%26_Blood

"Princess Myriah Martell's name, which was "Myriah" in the main series,^[52][8] but changed into "Mariah" in The World of Ice & Fire,^[53][54] has been changed back to "Myriah Martell".^[55]"

So there was two Mariahs, but then the spelling of one of their names changed to Myriah. Note that the Martell Mariah was featured both in the main series (in the World Book) and also in the Fire&Blood book, while in F&B there was no Stark family tree, and thus GRRM didn't had to also correct the spelling of Mariah Stark's name, which is actually (will be corrected in later books) also Myriah.

You can argue that just because GRRM changed the spelling of one Mariah into Myriah, then it doesn't mean that he is also intending to change the spelling of Mariah Stark's name too. Though, just think about it - How many characters in that world have unique names?

That small detail is actually very revealing. Because if Mariah Stark is actually also Myriah, then her shortened name is Mya.

Myriah Stark - her daughter Melissa Blackwood - Mya Rivers - Melantha Blackwood.

Or Mya - Mel - Mya - Mel.

(1) One Mya is a Stark's daughter and one Mya is Aegon's daughter, one Mel is a Stark's wife and one Mel is Aegon's mistress.

In the World Book GRRM intentionally cut off the Stark family tree in the part after Cregan's four daughters, not to reveal that one of them was Melissa Blackwood's mother. For the same reason he didn't added a Stark family tree in the Fire&Blood book, and ended First Volume where he ended it, not to reveal that Aegon IV's daughter, Mya Rivers, married with a Blackwood and that Melantha Blackwood was her daughter.

Though, there are still clues left.

For example, (2) Cregan's duel with the Dragonknight.

(I wrote about it here, it's a long quote, so I converted it under spoiler, it's from a thread (f)Dany, so maybe you have already seen it there)

Spoiler

On 2/5/2021 at 1:33 AM, Megorova said:

The same thing with Mariah Stark being Melissa Blackwood's mother, and Mya Rivers being Melantha Blackwood's mother. There are clues in the books, though readers don't notice them. For example, from one of Bran's chapters it is know that Cregan Stark fought against Aemon the Dragonknight. Why did they fought and when did this happened? If you use your brain, then you can figure it out.

Cregan was born in 108 and Aemon in 136. There's 28 years of age difference between them. At the time when they fought, Aemon already was nicknamed "Dragonknight". He got that nickname because the crest on his helm was a three-headed dragon of House Targaryen wrought in white gold. That helm was made for him not before he became a Kingsguard, it's not an everyday attire for someone who is not a knight/fighter, and he joined KG when he was 17 years old. So the fight/duel happened when Cregan was minimum 45 years old, when Aemon was 17+.

And Aemon said about Cregan - AGOT, Bran VII - "the Dragonknight said he’d never faced a finer swordsman". This claim from Aemon would have sounded silly, if the fight happened sometime in the beginning of his "knighting career". Thus, at the time of the fight Aemon was already a renowned warrior, who in his life faced many strong opponents, had fought in a Dornish war, etc.

Also - look at the family tree of Starks, after the Dance of the Dragons for many years afterwards, Cregan was tied to Winterfell, making babies first with Alysanne Blackwood (with whom they had 4 daughters) and then with Lynara Stark (with whom he had 5 children).

The fight didn't happened during Daeron I's reign. At that time Aemon was too busy dealing with Dorne. He was wounded there, and then also held there as a hostage, etc. Then Baelor became the King. And I doubt that Baelor would have allowed his Lord Commander (Aemon) to roughhouse with anyone just to see which one of them is a more skilled fighter. So the duel didn't happened until Aegon became King, which happened in 172 (same year Melissa Blackwood became his mistress). In my opinion the fight happened in 175, when Aemon was 38/39 years old, Cregan was 66/turning 67 and Melissa was Aegon's 6'th mistress (GRRM is often using Biblical elements in his books, so here we have 666).

There's no reason and no time for the duel between Cregan and Aemon to happen prior Aegon's reign. Something like that wouldn't have been allowed to happen during Baelor's reign. So what could be the reason for OLD Cregan to fight/duel Aemon? Who was Aemon at that time? -> He was King Aegon's Lord Commander, and what is more important is that he was his sworn sword and his shield. Whenever someone had a personal dispute with Aegon, and wanted for it to be decided by the will of Gods, instead of Aegon for him in a trial by combat would have fought his sword sword and shield, Aemon the Dragonknight. So Cregan wanted Aegon to end his relationship with Melissa, who was Cregan's granddaughter, and he challenged Aegon, and fought in a trial by combat against the Dragonknight. Cregan won, Aemon dubbed him the strongest opponent that he ever faced, and Aegon separated with Melissa.

Also Cregan got married with Alysanne Blackwood in 132, they had 4 daughters, and Melissa Blackwood was born in 151-161. For example, Alysanne got pregnant in 133, gave birth to their first child in 134; got pregnant again in 135, gave birth in 136; got pregnant again in 137, gave birth in 138; got pregnant for the 4th time in 139, gave birth in 140. Their last child, in case if Mariah was the youngest, was born in 140 (or earlier). Aegon in his later years preferred very young women. For example, his 8th mistress was 14. It's likely that in 172, when they met, Melissa was 14-18 years old, which places her birth in 154-158. Based on Mariah's and Melissa's possible years of birth, they can be mother and daughter. Mariah, at the time of Melissa's birth, was 14-18, or in case if Melissa was born in 151-161, then Mariah was at that time 11-21.

Though Mariah could have been born earlier than in 140. For example if Alysanne got pregnant in 132, gave birth to her first child in 133; got pregnant again in 133, gave birth in 134; third pregnancy in 134, birth in 135; and the last pregnancy in 135, gave birth in 136, not in 140. If Mariah was the last child, then at the time of Melissa's birth (151-161) she could have been 15-25 years old. If Mariah was the firstborn child, then she could have been (in 151-161) 18-28 at the time of Melissa's birth.

Mya Rivers was born in 172-175. If Melantha Blackwood was Mya's daughter, and Mya was Cregan Stark's great granddaughter, then Melantha would have been approximately same age as Cregan's other great grandchildren. And she was, because her husband, Willam Stark, was one of Cregan's great grandchildren.  

So, it's a possibility. And there IS basis for this idea/hypothesis in the books.

Also this - (3) Aegon V got married with Betha Blackwood. She was a suitable partner for him/highborn enough, if she was Mya's daughter and Lord Bloodraven's niece (while Melantha Blackwood was Betha's sister, and she was highborn enough, as the Hand's niece, to marry with a Lord Stark).

Also Betha's nickname was Black Betha, and its fitting, if she is who I claim she is, because in this case Betha and Melantha both were Alysanne Blackwood's great great granddaughters, and Alysanne's nickname was Black Aly.

(4) Black Aly -> Black Betha.

There's no other way for Betha to be Alysanne's descendant, unless Alysanne's daughter, Mariah Stark, married back into Blackwood family. (5) And both Betha's name and Melantha's name end with "tha" (same as Mariah's sister, Sarra Stark and her daughter Lorra Royce both have "rra" in their names).

And those five elements from one of my previous posts here, this -

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/158560-why-wasnt-robb-betrothed-by-the-beginning-of-the-story/&do=findComment&comment=8646382

 

That's (10) clues in total.

INDIRECT CLUES.

Do you get it now? Or still don't?

[Megorova]

5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Now, give me one, ONE quote supporting that Melissa Blackwood's mom was a Stark or that Mya Rivers married a Blackwood.

It's not a fair game, under current conditions, because unlike Jon and Ned, Melissa, Mariah, Mya and Melantha are not featured in the main series, they are mentioned only in the World Book.

So let's play fair - you too give me ONE quote supporting that Jon's mother was Lyanna Stark or that his father was Rhaegar Targaryen, WITHOUT using AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, AFFC, ADWD. How about that?

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

On 2/9/2021 at 3:12 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Isn't Mira non canon?

It has been quite a while since I've read the books. The mind plays tricks.

[Angel Eyes]

On 2/11/2021 at 1:25 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Ned is an artist at deluding himself into thinking people are kind and noble.

Unfortunately that seems to be the case; he believes that with Robert, with Cersei and with Littlefinger.

[Angel Eyes]

On 2/11/2021 at 10:32 PM, Winds of Winter blow cold said:

It has been quite a while since I've read the books. The mind plays tricks.

She's exclusive to Telltale (no heart).

[LindsayLohan]

On 2/10/2021 at 12:03 PM, BlackLightning said:

How the hell is House Mormont a no-go?! House Mormont secured a marriage with House freaking Hightower, for God's sake. House Hightower! Not only do they rule the largest, wealthiest and best city in Westeros but they have married kings. Oops, did I mention that the Hightowers themselves were kings?

Getouttahere *Long Island accent*

Dacey or Alysanne Mormont would have been excellent matches for Robb. Besides, you have Meera Reed, the Blackwood and Bracken girls, the Manderly girls and there are the Royces who are practically half-northern given how many times the Starks have married them. The Redforts are one of the last First Men houses in the Vale; good match for Robb.

Another really good match for Robb would have been any of the Tyrell girls with Margaery being #1.

If Balon Greyjoy was half of the butthurt idiotic ass that he was, Asha for Robb would have been perfect.

Ned Stark's grandmother is a woman from House Flint and we don't know what kind of Flint she was at that. So I don't think it's a case of being too lowly. You can make the "too lowborn" argument for Sansa but not for Robb.

Robb will be the Lord of Winterfell. All he needs a consort, a healthy young woman of fine breeding.

With Sansa, it's a bit more complicated. she is the firstborn daughter of the Lord of Winterfell and the Warden of the North. Her station makes it so where she must marry either royalty, a high lord or the heir of a high lord. She deserves to rule a household like Catelyn rules Winterfell and Lysa rules the Eyrie.

Willas Tyrell is a good match for Sansa. Garlan Tyrell is a bad match for Sansa.

Not anymore. Garlan is a powerful lord in his own right.

[Ephraim'sFruit]

I think its to set up the Starks as this wholesome happy medieval family that you root for.

For me as a reader the rest of the novels are all about the dream of seeing a Stark reunion and them all returning to WF to be a happy family again. Of course this dream officially dies at the Red Wedding. End of Swords and beginning of Feast are a brutal read for me, the thing id been rooting for this whole time died in a traumatic way. Its like reading Tolstoy or something.

If Robb is already married off it might distract from the tight knit family portrayal the the Starks start out as.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Maybe so he could waste his play on someone who doesn't help him politically? His characterization fits the the idea that winning alliances is just as important as winning wars.