Joss Whedeon, getting more canceled by the day

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Speed was great, and the scriptwriter acknowledges that Whedon's intervention saved the film and something like 98% of the dialogue in the finished movie is from Whedon's rewrite (including a rewrite with Whedon in a room with Keanu Reeves stripping back the dialogue from its original Bruce Willis style of hero to something that would work better with Reeves). Toy Story is also pretty great, though much more of a collaborative effort. Serenity is excellent but it's really part of the TV show more than a standalone work. The first Avengers is probably the single most important film in the MCU even if it's not the best (but certainly in the top five).

Whedon is fully capable of bringing the A-game when he wants/is able to.

That has absolutely nothing to do with him also being a bully, a hypocrite and an arsehole, of course.

Oh, I didn't remember that Whedon had been involved with Speed. Toy Story I ignored because that was indeed a collaborative thing, apparently.

I was massively underwhelmed by the first Avengers movie since I really don't think a movie with a huge 'let's unleash aliens on New York'-climax is quality entertainment. In addition to the fact that the movie just lacked a visible villain. There are other ways to build up threat for a super hero team - although I certainly acknowledge that making such a team work properly is definitely a considerable challenge.

But I will rewatch the Marvel movies in the foreseeable future - and watch some for the first time - so perhaps I'm enjoy it more then.

I must say, though, that I enjoyed both of the new Spiderman movies more than any of the Avengers films, and that I'm also liking their take on the Ant-Man characters.

I have still to watch the Firefly stuff, but Serenity being the end of that show makes it part of that, not a movie who can stand on its own.

[IlyaP]

6 minutes ago, Werthead said:

That has absolutely nothing to do with him also being a bully, a hypocrite and an arsehole, of course.

This entire thread reminded me of a thread we had here about maybe a year ago (maybe 2?) where we were talking about exceptional artists who made amazing art but were difficult human beings. This prompted someone to wonder aloud if there was a correlation of some kind between exceptional art and the difficulty of the artist's personality (I'm of course, paraphrasing). Daniel Abraham then briefly stepped in to point out the obvious absurdity of this argument. 

Lots of complicated, original, genre-challenging shows are made by people who are decent and respectful towards one another. Off the top of my head (and in no particular order): Naren Shankar on The Expanse, Rockne S. O'Bannon and David Kemper on Farscape, JMS on Babylon 5, Greg Berlanti of, well, the Arrowverse (for want of a better term), Bruce Geller on Mission: Impossible - all of them treated their cast and crew professionally and appropriately. 

If it's clear someone's not suitable for a job and is showing cracks or inappropriate behaviour, HR and senior management should act immediately. Regardless of the industry. No one should ever have to come to work and feel uncomfortable. This is why we have anonymous reports and complaint systems in place, HR regulations, OH&S policies, work health and safety rules, etc., to protect employees and ensure employers and workplaces behave appropriately. 

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

In addition to the fact that the movie just lacked a visible villain.

Tom Hiddleston is pretty pale but he's not literally transparent.

[Werthead]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

Tom Hiddleston is pretty pale but he's not literally transparent.

Complaining that Thanos isn't very visible is a reasonable comment, but yeah, Loki was up front and centre through the movie.

[IlyaP]

1 minute ago, Werthead said:

Complaining that Thanos isn't very visible is a reasonable comment, but yeah, Loki was up front and centre through the movie.

Pretty much. Every time the camera was on him, he ate it.

[SpaceChampion]

If the Snyder cut is bad though, Whedon still doesn't get a pass.

[Vaughn]

2 hours ago, IlyaP said:

Lots of complicated, original, genre-challenging shows are made by people who are decent and respectful towards one another. Off the top of my head (and in no particular order): Naren Shankar on The Expanse, Rockne S. O'Bannon and David Kemper on Farscape, JMS on Babylon 5, Greg Berlanti of, well, the Arrowverse (for want of a better term), Bruce Geller on Mission: Impossible - all of them treated their cast and crew professionally and appropriately. 

 

Jon Favreau I believe also has a good rep.

Of course, who knows right? I don't know how familiar any of you are with Jonah Keri but he was a very personable sports/business reporter for CBS, etc... and turns out he's going on trial for terrible spousal abuse. So, it's just hard to know sometimes as I was a fan of his work for years and it was gutting to learn who he really is.

[S John]

Can I just say that I hate the phrase ‘My truth’. I feel like I’ve seen this used a lot in the last few years. I understand what people are getting at when they use it, but to me it carries the connotation (likely unintentional on the user’s part) of a self-centered representation of the truth, rather than the objective truth.

There shouldn’t be my truth, your truth, Sally’s truth, Roberto’s truth - there should only be THE truth. What people really mean is that they are telling their side of a story and I think ‘my truth’ has just become a trendy, short hand, and probably a little self-important manner of conveying that. But to my ear, or eye in this particular case, advertising a statement as ‘my truth’ comes off as a suspicious hedge against potential counter arguments and diminishes the impact of the statement given, IMO. 

none of this has any bearing on the topic at hand, I do believe Weedon is probably a  dick - just couldn’t let that again slide today. 

[Vaughn]

30 minutes ago, Mr Gordo said:

Yeah the hypocritical nature of the thing really stings. It's like if it suddenly came to light that Jim Henson hated children.

Or Chris Terrio hated Star Wa... never mind, this isn't the forum for that.

[C.T. Phipps]

Seth Green said that Joss Whedon had Oz written out "with spite" because he asked for time off to do a movie.

Given Joss had Oz try and eat Willow, it's interesting to note a pattern is emerging.

Julia Benz

Charisma Carpenter

James

Basically, he treats his actors like shit if they do anything that remotely inconveniences him or forces him to do rewrites.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, DMC said:

Tom Hiddleston is pretty pale but he's not literally transparent.

But he is just a secondary goon villain there, no? It has been some time that I last watched it, but I remember Loki as a fun guy doing the bidding of the big alien invasion army and helping them along ... but he isn't masterminding things, meaning he isn't the villain of the movie.

6 hours ago, Werthead said:

Complaining that Thanos isn't very visible is a reasonable comment, but yeah, Loki was up front and centre through the movie.

Was Thanos actually in the movie or just in an after credits scene?

Thinking about Speed there some more, I guess one can credit Whedon with helping with the dialogue, but this is definitely not his movie. He didn't direct, and he didn't come up with the story. Not doubting he may have made the script better, but unless he completely changed the story his impact on that one doesn't go far enough to make it 'his movie'.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, IlyaP said:

This entire thread reminded me of a thread we had here about maybe a year ago (maybe 2?) where we were talking about exceptional artists who made amazing art but were difficult human beings. This prompted someone to wonder aloud if there was a correlation of some kind between exceptional art and the difficulty of the artist's personality (I'm of course, paraphrasing). Daniel Abraham then briefly stepped in to point out the obvious absurdity of this argument. 

Lots of complicated, original, genre-challenging shows are made by people who are decent and respectful towards one another. Off the top of my head (and in no particular order): Naren Shankar on The Expanse, Rockne S. O'Bannon and David Kemper on Farscape, JMS on Babylon 5, Greg Berlanti of, well, the Arrowverse (for want of a better term), Bruce Geller on Mission: Impossible - all of them treated their cast and crew professionally and appropriately. 

If it's clear someone's not suitable for a job and is showing cracks or inappropriate behaviour, HR and senior management should act immediately. Regardless of the industry. No one should ever have to come to work and feel uncomfortable. This is why we have anonymous reports and complaint systems in place, HR regulations, OH&S policies, work health and safety rules, etc., to protect employees and ensure employers and workplaces behave appropriately. 

That is what I meant with my original point here - how much of a legacy is the general abusive environment of the theatre/movie industry to blame for how things were done there. The industry certainly draws in narcissists and control freaks and assholes - and not just on the director/producer side, but also with the actors - but it is the work environment and the structures in place that allow people to get away with the (really) abusive shit.

The whole genius cult in art - which goes back, well, to Goethe and Mozart - is very much pushing stuff like that - but while writing and composing and painting and stuff can easily be pinned down to a personal genius, the whole genius cult involving directors or conductors is kind of a twisted view of things, anyway, since an orchestra and movie and the performance of a play are always collaborative efforts.

In that sense, the kind of cult people hype around people like Hitchcock and Kubrick is not really all that justified, even if you take into account that the movies they made are basically 'their vision'. But the work is done by all the people involved.

If the movie industry were get down to the point that directors are less hyped then an atmosphere where various 'geniuses' can get away with anything because they make great art.

But the bigger problem definitely is how (especially) women in the movie industry are viewed and treated - and have since the beginning.

[DMC]

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But he is just a secondary goon villain there, no? It has been some time that I last watched it, but I remember Loki as a fun guy doing the bidding of the big alien invasion army and helping them along ... but he isn't masterminding things, meaning he isn't the villain of the movie.

He is given the alien invasion army to subjugate earth under his rule in exchange for retrieving the tesseract.  The inciting incident that prompts Fury to recruit the Avengers is Loki stealing the tesseract.  Thanos is indeed the "mastermind" enabling him of course, and obviously Loki is a "secondary" villain in the serialized cinematic universe, but Loki is the clear villain of the movie beginning, middle, and end.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

He is given the alien invasion army to subjugate earth under his rule in exchange for retrieving the tesseract.  The inciting incident that prompts Fury to recruit the Avengers is Loki stealing the tesseract.  Thanos is indeed the "mastermind" enabling him of course, and obviously Loki is a "secondary" villain in the serialized cinematic universe, but Loki is the clear villain of the movie beginning, middle, and end.

Yeah, well, I do view him as the secondary villain in that movie - since the real danger are the weirdo, faceless aliens, and not Loki. Mind you, I like the guy and also the fact that he was in that movie. But he wasn't guy *really controlling* the monsters. And, besides, I really don't like the 'alien invasion in a big city' plot. That's old and not very original. How often have we seen that already?

 

[BigFatCoward]

If it's on twitter it must be true. I have managed about 300 staff in my time. About 5 would be all over twitter right now saying I'm abusive, a bully etc if I was famous (one complained about me as I wouldn't let her do personal tasks in job time, another as I wouldn't authorise an insane shift patter that didnt meet operational requirements, a 3rd had made complaints against every manager she had had in previous 14 years etc) I've been exonerated every time. In your court of public opinion I'd be guilty as shit.

Getting people to so their jobs gets some people really pissed off, im not saying he isnt everything they say, but all of your unquestioning beleif is a bit weird. People hold grudges against their old bosses. Doesnt make their grievances true just because they air it on a public forum rather than following appropriate channels. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

56 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

If it's on twitter it must be true. I have managed about 300 staff in my time. About 5 would be all over twitter right now saying I'm abusive, a bully etc if I was famous (one complained about me as I wouldn't let her do personal tasks in job time, another as I wouldn't authorise an insane shift patter that didnt meet operational requirements, a 3rd had made complaints against every manager she had had in previous 14 years etc) I've been exonerated every time. In your court of public opinion I'd be guilty as shit.

Getting people to so their jobs gets some people really pissed off, im not saying he isnt everything they say, but all of your unquestioning beleif is a bit weird. People hold grudges against their old bosses. Doesnt make their grievances true just because they air it on a public forum rather than following appropriate channels. 

If you sacked people for being pregnant and physically assaulted them, you’d be out of a job and possibly in jail.

Many of the main actors from his shows are speaking upnajd corroboratingn one another in an industry that punishes speaking out. When his only defender is 4chan nut Adam Baldwin, it’s easy to see why opinion is swinging against him.

And Michelle Trachtenberg was in her mid teens at the start of her time on Buffy; if Whedon acted improperly towards her, then...

[IlyaP]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But he is just a secondary goon villain there, no? It has been some time that I last watched it, but I remember Loki as a fun guy doing the bidding of the big alien invasion army and helping them along ... but he isn't masterminding things, meaning he isn't the villain of the movie.

He's the main force that instigates the plot. He's the primary antagonist. It's alluded to that there's a secondary antagonist, but he is on screen for a hefty amount of time. He is, in a very real way, the primary force that prompts the story. 

[IlyaP]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, well, I do view him as the secondary villain in that movie - since the real danger are the weirdo, faceless aliens, and not Loki.

The Chitauri. (Sorry, I'm a geek and remember these sorts of details.)

[BigFatCoward]

29 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

If you sacked people for being pregnant and physically assaulted them, you’d be out of a job and possibly in jail.

Many of the main actors from his shows are speaking upnajd corroboratingn one another in an industry that punishes speaking out. When his only defender is 4chan nut Adam Baldwin, it’s easy to see why opinion is swinging against him.

And Michelle Trachtenberg was in her mid teens at the start of her time on Buffy; if Whedon acted improperly towards her, then...

Yeah, but my understanding is that is the allegation, not something that is proven. Unless I've misread something. 

The industry punishes speaking out, until it turns against people who dont almost, when allegations reach a certain mass. In the past defenders of certain people have been hounded as well. 

As to the last point, yeah fuck any creepy weirdos. 

[Ran]

My understanding was that the original plan for S4 was that Cordelia was going to be possessed by an evil deity, becoming the Big Bad, and that at the end Angel would kill her in a direct mirroring of the Buffy episode “Becoming” (when Buffy believes she kills Angel/Angelus). Either way, Carpenter was being written out. She even admitted as much in past interviews, indicating that she felt the show had told all the stories worth telling about her character.

The late revelation of her pregnancy a month before cameras rolled led to a mass of rewriting and figuring out how to make it work when she was going to be less present. So instead of becoming the Big Bad, she gives birth to the Big Bad and the character ended up in a coma.