Joss Whedeon, getting more canceled by the day

[Week]

3 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Yeah, but my understanding is that is the allegation, not something that is proven. Unless I've misread something. 

The industry punishes speaking out, until it turns against people who dont almost, when allegations reach a certain mass. In the past defenders of certain people have been hounded as well. 

As to the last point, yeah fuck any creepy weirdos. 

We're not in a court - there is no crime under prosecution, in this case at least. Most instances of these allegations have been people without an appropriate channel for reporting or it has been denied to them -- getting the word out to prevent future incidents is the last resort. It definitely isn't ideal and is often quite messy but there is a need for awareness and accountability without a different solution.

I would agree that immediately going public prior to an using appropriate channels is generally not a good thing. That said, we have seen time and time again that the "appropriate channels" have excused and glossed over criminal behavior -- trust for fairness and accountability is in short supply.

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

My understanding was that the original plan for S4 was that Cordelia was going to be possessed by an evil deity, becoming the Big Bad, and that at the end Angel would kill her in a direct mirroring of the Buffy episode “Becoming” (when Buffy believes she kills Angel/Angelus). Either way, Carpenter was being written out. She even admitted as much in past interviews, indicating that she felt the show had told all the stories worth telling about her character.

The late revelation of her pregnancy a month before cameras rolled led to a mass of rewriting and figuring out how to make it work when she was going to be less present. So instead of becoming the Big Bad, she gives birth to the Big Bad and the character ended up in a coma. 

That doesn't sound right. Carpenter has always said she wanted to stay on the show and not be killed off, and most TV shows do make accommodations for actresses who become pregnant. Even given the way events in the show fell out, they could have easily had Cordelia wake up at any moment and become an active character in the show once again. There's even the story when she was asked to come back for Season 5 she said yes on the condition she wasn't killed off and that was agreed, and the script was changed after that to say she was dead.

Whedon was also looking for venues to put his Firefly actors after the show was cancelled, leading to Fillion on Buffy and Torres on Angel, so really the situation did work out well for everyone, it just seems that Whedon took the situation personally for some reason and responded out of spite.

Quote

JMS on Babylon 5,

There were a lot of problems and drama on Babylon 5. Some of the actors were flaming right-wing nuts and kept getting into arguments with other people, executive producer Doug Netter allegedly defrauded contractors, half the cast nearly quit en masse for Season 5 because their pay (which was way below market rate any way) was slashed so hard and had to be talked off the ledge by Claudia Christian (who ironically was then treated badly by the producers and then quit herself) etc etc. JMS himself was not so much at the centre of it himself, although he did inflate his role on the show somewhat and angered a lot of people in the design and effects departments for claiming credit for their ideas.

[Mindwalker]

Well, that's saddening.

I didn't follow him after Buffy/ Angel, as I'm not interested in the genres he pursued. (Then again, I'm also not interested in vampire shows, but this was different.) Always waned to watch Firefly, never got around to it.

It's particularly disturbing how he treated women when BtVS did a lot on the women as heroines front, and even had a happy lesbian couple. Both even more unusual at the time than it is now. Oh well.

When so many of his actors speak out, chances that this is all manfactured or exggerated are extremely low. Twitter or not. 

[Martell Spy]

7 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

If it's on twitter it must be true. I have managed about 300 staff in my time. About 5 would be all over twitter right now saying I'm abusive, a bully etc if I was famous (one complained about me as I wouldn't let her do personal tasks in job time, another as I wouldn't authorise an insane shift patter that didnt meet operational requirements, a 3rd had made complaints against every manager she had had in previous 14 years etc) I've been exonerated every time. In your court of public opinion I'd be guilty as shit.

Getting people to so their jobs gets some people really pissed off, im not saying he isnt everything they say, but all of your unquestioning beleif is a bit weird. People hold grudges against their old bosses. Doesnt make their grievances true just because they air it on a public forum rather than following appropriate channels. 

There's also many, many employees that just suck it up and say nothing. Or quit to avoid the issue. Like bullying, this is one of the things that keeps the cycle going. The employee endures the abuse for various reasons and likely gets more of it. Or leaves, gets the employee out of the situation, but the abuser is still in a position of power over others.

[dog-days]

7 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

If it's on twitter it must be true. I have managed about 300 staff in my time. About 5 would be all over twitter right now saying I'm abusive, a bully etc if I was famous (one complained about me as I wouldn't let her do personal tasks in job time, another as I wouldn't authorise an insane shift patter that didnt meet operational requirements, a 3rd had made complaints against every manager she had had in previous 14 years etc) I've been exonerated every time. In your court of public opinion I'd be guilty as shit.

Getting people to so their jobs gets some people really pissed off, im not saying he isnt everything they say, but all of your unquestioning beleif is a bit weird. People hold grudges against their old bosses. Doesnt make their grievances true just because they air it on a public forum rather than following appropriate channels. 

This stuff has been brewing for a long long time. If it was one or two people, and it came out of the blue, I would reserve my judgement, but with Whedon it's more like death of a thousand cuts (each made by a different person). I first watched Buffy in 2010, and even then I remember that Whedon's reputation was a bit frayed at the edges. 

[BigFatCoward]

59 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

There's also many, many employees that just suck it up and say nothing. Or quit to avoid the issue. Like bullying, this is one of the things that keeps the cycle going. The employee endures the abuse for various reasons and likely gets more of it. Or leaves, gets the employee out of the situation, but the abuser is still in a position of power over others.

I agree that all of this is true. but people's careers shouldn't be ruined 140 characters at a time. 

[Kalbear]

11 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I agree that all of this is true. but people's careers shouldn't be ruined 140 characters at a time. 

Multiple people have given longform discussions along with dates and times about incidents that happened directly to them or they witnessed happening to others. Hell, there was a months-long investigation in the Ray Fisher case that revealed that most of his complaints were entirely legitimate. 

Your objections are bullshit. 

[Ran]

13 minutes ago, KalbearAnon said:

Hell, there was a months-long investigation in the Ray Fisher case that revealed that most of his complaints were entirely legitimate. 

Could your link to the report that shows that? Would be interested to read it.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

Could your link to the report that shows that? Would be interested to read it.

There was no report, but there was a statement that actions would be taken. And among other things, Joss left the Nevers (another HBO property) shortly thereafter. It's not hard to connect the dots there. 

[BigFatCoward]

15 minutes ago, KalbearAnon said:

Multiple people have given longform discussions along with dates and times about incidents that happened directly to them or they witnessed happening to others. Hell, there was a months-long investigation in the Ray Fisher case that revealed that most of his complaints were entirely legitimate. 

Your objections are bullshit. 

My objections are to everyone jumping to conclusions based on very limited evidence. I've seen far to many lying their tits off in my time to take anything at face value.

Also calm down, not everything has to be escalated to 11 everytime. You must be a proper downer to be around most of the time. 

[BigFatCoward]

3 minutes ago, KalbearAnon said:

There was no report, but there was a statement that actions would be taken. And among other things, Joss left the Nevers (another HBO property) shortly thereafter. It's not hard to connect the dots there. 

Oooh connecting the dots. Very forensic. 

So a month long investigation lead to .... 'a statement'. 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

My objections are to everyone jumping to conclusions based on very limited evidence. I've seen far to many lying their tits off in my time to take anything at face value.

Also calm down, not everything has to be escalated to 11 everytime. You must be a proper downer to be around most of the time. 

Just following your lead about escalations - you're the one who jumped from what's actually occurring to equating it with random tweets ending a poor person's career. 

And I'm sure I'm a super downer to be around! So the fuck what? 

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

Oooh connecting the dots. Very forensic. 

What, do you think that HBO is going to go out and say 'we found specific evidence of this and we're going to say Joss sucks'? Come on. That's not how the world works at all. That's not how the police work unless they actually can charge the person with an actual crime.

Joss has been taken off the marketing for the Nevers. He quit during the investigation that Warner was doing into him, citing 'exhaustion' despite, ya know, not having worked for years. Ray Fisher sounded satisfied with what he got from WB. And then there are now a number of different people across the line and across the years saying very similar stories.

 

 

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, KalbearAnon said:

There was no report, but there was a statement that actions would be taken. And among other things, Joss left the Nevers (another HBO property) shortly thereafter. It's not hard to connect the dots there. 

So what you’re saying is that you don’t actually know any of the things you said to BFC regarding the results of the investigation 

I know you may feel like you know things, but that’s different from actually knowing them.

 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

So what you’re saying is that you don’t actually know any of the things you said to BFC regarding the results of the investigation 

I know you may feel like you know things, but that’s different from actually knowing them.

You're right; I'm sure that WB regularly scrubs high-profile directors from their projects and doesn't put them in the marketing for completely unrelated reasons to investigations that they took. I don't know for certain that Ray Fisher's allegations were proved, but from a corporate malfeasance perspective all the indications are there that there were problems and things changed - including Joss' employment status.

[BigFatCoward]

4 minutes ago, KalbearAnon said:

You're right; I'm sure that WB regularly scrubs high-profile directors from their projects and doesn't put them in the marketing for completely unrelated reasons to investigations that they took. I don't know for certain that Ray Fisher's allegations were proved, but from a corporate malfeasance perspective all the indications are there that there were problems and things changed - including Joss' employment status.

Or that the PR damage was already so bad that they had to let him go no matter what. Because of people like you jumping to conclusions? 

[Kalbear]

Just now, BigFatCoward said:

Or that the PR damage was already so bad that they had to let him go no matter what. Because of people like you jumping to conclusions? 

They let him go in November; these reports came out in February 2021. That's some pretty potent power that they have!

[Knight of Ashes]

Anthony (Giles) Head's reaction:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ca.style.yahoo.com/amphtml/buffy-anthony-head-joss-whedon-170803340.html

[Conflicting Thought]

44 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Or that the PR damage was already so bad that they had to let him go no matter what. Because of people like you jumping to conclusions? 

So you belive all the people coming forward against joss whedeon are just vindictive, ungratefull underlings trying to destroy him? Becouse you are had or have people working under you?. 

I dont know, sounds like you are projecting. Or maybe its a case of miss placed class solidarity? 

I dont think is that strange for a person that has power over other  people, to become authoritative and abuse his power. Isn't that, like, a very common thing? 

[Vaughn]

28 minutes ago, Knight of Ashes said:

Anthony (Giles) Head's reaction:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ca.style.yahoo.com/amphtml/buffy-anthony-head-joss-whedon-170803340.html

He should apologize for being such an absolute dick to Rebecca on 'Ted Lasso' then worry about Joss.

[DaveSumm]

9 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Or maybe its a case of miss placed class solidarity? 

What?