Joss Whedeon, getting more canceled by the day

[baxus]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I don't think it was worth the abuse no. That's not really the point I'm making though. This all started because I was saying that this is a pretty complex example of a director treating actors badly, because the direct result of his bad behaviour was a better movie. 

You could pick out many other examples of bullying directors who haven't enhanced a movie by bullying, but just made everything worse. Michael Bay seems like a good example.

It is not that complex, really. It's a matter of basic human decency and treating other people with respect. One shouldn't abuse anyone. Period.

"He did it for her benefit" is a bullshit excuse for an abuser, nothing more.

[Week]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Actually a few of these "trial by twitters" (such a stupid name) have been fake. Are you aware of what happened to Chris Hardwick?

June 2018: Suspended by AMC and NBC while conducting an investigation.

August 2018: Reinstated after investigation concluded (his accuser refused to permit in the investigation).

Oh the horror.

Not to mention he wasn't named by his accuser, he was named by readers of the medium post (not twitter tyvm).

[Heartofice]

14 minutes ago, Mindwalker said:

My impression was that was exactly the point you were making. You kept insisting that the artistic result was better for the abuse. I guess I'm too dumb to not see an impled justification here.

Well then you didn't understand my point. 

I'm simply being objective. Her performance WAS enhanced by his behaviour, I'm not sure anyone is actually disagreeing with that point? Was it worth it, I don't think so on balance, but that is something different.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, Week said:

June 2018: Suspended by AMC and NBC while conducting an investigation.

August 2018: Reinstated after investigation concluded (his accuser refused to permit in the investigation).

Oh the horror.

Not to mention he wasn't named by his accuser, he was named by readers of the medium post (not twitter tyvm).

I'm confused, just because it had a happy ending, are you somehow saying it somehow doesn't make it f'd up?

People lie buddy and social media has made lying easier than ever before.

[Mindwalker]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well then you didn't understand my point. 

I'm simply being objective. Her performance WAS enhanced by his behaviour, I'm sure anyone is actually disagreeing with that point? Was it worth it, I don't think so on balance, but that is something different.

While it is possible, if unlikely, that I didn't understand your point, keep telling yourself the bolded.

[Week]

8 minutes ago, Mindwalker said:

My impression was that was exactly the point you were making. You kept insisting that the artistic result was better for the abuse. I guess I'm too dumb to not see an implied justification here.

Yes, there is no excuse for abuse - especially in a professional environment. None.

[Week]

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

I'm confused, just because it had a happy ending, are you somehow saying it somehow doesn't make it f'd up?

People lie buddy and social media has made lying easier than ever before.

1) Investigation did not say it was a lie. There is no proof that it was a lie. There was not enough evidence to punish him further.

2) Yes, that's ok. Allegations of abuse should be investigated and taken seriously. A tiny portion of abuse is reported, a portion of that is investigated, a portion of that is investigated seriously, and a smaller portion of that actually holds a guilty party to account.

3) People abuse other people buddy. The abused are far more often to be re-abused and traumatized by people who counter accuse them of lying of "trying to get famous" because everyone knows that it is a super fucking great life for women (and a few men) that have accused more powerful men of abuse. How many times has Christine Blasey Ford have had to move due to death threats? How many women are immediately attacked, slut shamed, etc for speaking up? You think that it's so likely that "people lie" after seeing this? OK, buddy.

 

[Vaughn]

16 minutes ago, Week said:

June 2018: Suspended by AMC and NBC while conducting an investigation.

August 2018: Reinstated after investigation concluded (his accuser refused to permit in the investigation).

Oh the horror.

Not to mention he wasn't named by his accuser, he was named by readers of the medium post (not twitter tyvm).

I've always read that situation as a creep getting away with it. Even in cases of rape, perpetrators get away with it if the victim doesn't want to relive their trauma. This was less than that and he's an operator so of course he skated and crocodile-teared his way back onto his gigs. I think Hardwick is a pretty good analog to Whedon - not quite at the Singer/Spacey/Weinstein level but way above Ansari. Same kind of nerd / narcissist as Whedon too.

[DMC]

13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Her performance WAS enhanced by his behaviour, I'm not sure anyone is actually disagreeing with that point?

I am.  I am disagreeing with that point.  She was a rising star, and her critically panned performance in the movie hurt her career - disregarding everything else.  That's, actually, fairly objective.

[sifth]

8 minutes ago, Week said:

1) Investigation did not say it was a lie. There is no proof that it was a lie. There was not enough evidence to punish him further.

2) Yes, that's ok. Allegations of abuse should be investigated and taken seriously. A tiny portion of abuse is reported, a portion of that is investigated, a portion of that is investigated seriously, and a smaller portion of that actually holds a guilty party to account.

3) People abuse other people buddy. The abused are far more often to be re-abused and traumatized by people who counter accuse them of lying of "trying to get famous" because everyone knows that it is a super fucking great life for women (and a few men) that have accused more powerful men of abuse. How many times has Christine Blasey Ford have had to move due to death threats? How many women are immediately attacked, slut shamed, etc for speaking up? You think that it's so likely that "people lie" after seeing this? OK, buddy.

 

So as I posted above, my first job teaching job in 2008 was horrible. My boss treated me like crap every day and I came home every day crying and angry, I even came home and vomited some days. So by your "logic" does this mean I have the right to use twitter to try to get this lady who caused me so much pain in trouble, 12 years later?

I love how you believe everyone on Twitter is an honest puppy dog. The last U.S. president, used it to lie all the time mate.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

So as I posted above, my first job in 2008 was horrible. My boss treated me like crap every day and I came home every day crying and angry, I even came home and vomited some days. So by your "logic" does this mean I have the right to use twitter to try to get this lady who caused me so much pain in trouble, 12 years later?

Well, yes, since you've a right to do most anything you like when it comes to speech. 

Of course, you could be lying now about your experience, and you could lie about that former employer on social media, and none of us here would be the wiser.

 

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

Well, yes, since you've a right to do most anything you like when it comes to speech. 

Of course, you could be lying now about your experience, and you could lie about that former employer on social media, and none of us here would be the wiser.

 

That doesn't answer my question. Do I have the right to ruin this persons life?

I basically prefer just moving on with my life like a mature adult though.

[Ran]

Just now, sifth said:

That doesn't answer my question. Do I have the right to ruin this persons life?

You have a moral right to tell the truth about your experience if you believe that it will do something good to do so. Perhaps by revealing her misdeeds you will help protect others if she has continued her bad habits. In fact, if you knew she was actually doing the same to others now, it's not only a moral right but a moral imperative to try and help them.

Whether putting it out on Twitter is the way to do it or not, I can't say. It may not be the most constructive approach, but then again it may be the only realistic approach if you don't believe the issue has been corrected.

[Week]

32 minutes ago, sifth said:

So as I posted above, my first job teaching job in 2008 was horrible. My boss treated me like crap every day and I came home every day crying and angry, I even came home and vomited some days. So by your "logic" does this mean I have the right to use twitter to try to get this lady who caused me so much pain in trouble, 12 years later?

I love how you believe everyone on Twitter is an honest puppy dog. The last U.S. president, used it to lie all the time mate.

You would have an appropriate avenue in HR and reasonable escalation points there. If you don't get satisfaction then perhaps social media is your only avenue because structurally our society protects the status quo and abusers.

To the bold - cute.

[Vaughn]

It's a bummer how the whole message of MeToo is being brushed away already in favor of people just throwing up their hands and deciding that in a he said / she said situation, we might as well believe the man with the power vs. the woman who might be out to get him. Pathetic.

[Fez]

55 minutes ago, sifth said:

I'm confused, just because it had a happy ending, are you somehow saying it somehow doesn't make it f'd up?

I wouldn't even say it had a happy ending. Chris Hardwick is absolutely fine, he married into the Hearst family, he's set for life. But his career is nowhere near the place it was circa 2014-2017.

Anyway, I think the vast majority of these accusations over the past few years have been entirely accurate, and too easily dismissed. And too many monsters have gotten away with damn near everything.

HOWEVER, I also can't stand people glibly being fine with innocents getting caught up in these sorts of messes. In principle, it's no different from a district attorney being fine with police misconduct leading to somewhere between 2% and 10% (estimates vary) of convicted US prison inmates actually being not guilty.

[Werthead]

13 minutes ago, Week said:

You would have an appropriate avenue in HR and reasonable escalation points there. If you don't get satisfaction then perhaps social media is your only avenue because structurally our society protects the status quo and abusers.

I had a similar situation once where the manager was close friends with the head of HR, who discounted multiple complaints against the manager (even after they got into double figures) and systematically fired every person who made a complaint. When the head of HR quit and a brand-new head came in, a dozen of us made a simultaneous complaint against the manager which was enough to get her fired by the new regime. And this was in the UK, where employment law and protection is far stronger than it is in many places in the world.

It is an unfortunate fact that you sometimes have to keep your powder dry and know when and how to act for maximum effectiveness, and that abusers and bullies often surround or align themselves with others for protection or to appear more credible.

If we look at the Whedon stories, it's notable that he squared off physically with Marsters, a wiry and thin guy who was known not to be big on direct confrontation, and not with other male castmembers who could have easily put him through a wall, and seems to have behaved inappropriately towards younger and less famous actresses, but seemed to avoid doing anything to antagonise Sarah Michelle Gellar, who had a lot of power and profile as the show's star and probably the only person on the show the studio would have favoured over him (he was helped by the fact the SMG seems to have cultivated a slightly separate situation where she was friendly with her costars, but didn't go to many conventions and didn't form strong friendships, apart from with Seth Green whom she already knew and Alyson Hannigan, possibly more after the show ended than at the time).

[Mindwalker]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

That doesn't answer my question. Do I have the right to ruin this persons life?

I basically prefer just moving on with my life like a mature adult though.

If your accusations are truthful, it is the abusive behavior that finally ruins their lives (if it does), not the person telling the truth.

It's great that you can leave it behind, that doesn't mean people who can't or won't are immature, just that they are still traumatzed, or they want to protect other potential victims from suffering the same abuse, or they have other valid reasons for doing so.

ETA: I was too slow, @Ran expressed it much better!

[Mindwalker]

31 minutes ago, Vaughn said:

It's a bummer how the whole message of MeToo is being brushed away already in favor of people just throwing up their hands and deciding that in a he said / she said situation, we might as well believe the man with the power vs. the woman who might be out to get him. Pathetic.

Yeah. Next thing we know is someone will open a thread about the poor incels or something.

[Vaughn]

1 hour ago, Fez said:

But his career is nowhere near the place it was circa 2014-2017.

 

He's hosting a prime time network TV game show!