Joss Whedeon, getting more canceled by the day

[Ran]

26 minutes ago, Vaughn said:

To circle back to my point about Olivia Wilde, sure maybe there's 'context' but OTOH, but being abusive shouldn't be tolerated? I've heard very little bad about the Russos who were under considerably more pressure than Whedon ever was making Buffy or Justice League for example.

To be completely fair here, Whedon definitely had way more pressure on him during Justice League than the Russos had on the Avengers films. He was brought in extremely late, given no leeway on when to wrap because the studio had a hard release date, and had a mess of a film to try and hack together with what sounds like a mixed bunch of people who weren't all necessarily happy with the situation they found themselves in.

The Russos had a lot more runway and support, start to finish. Marvel has become a machine for turning out movies, something DC/WB has yet to figure out with his superhero films.

I agree that bad behavior is bad behavior, though, and it shouldn't be accepted as a good thing. At the same time, I think tense work places with tens or hundreds of millions of dollars being spent and hundreds and even thousands of collective man hours per day hinging on how things go... well, they're  exactly the kind of environment where people are liable to not always be their best, especially if things go wrong. The important thing in those situations is how quickly they can recover from them, restore cohesion and sense of purpose, and go forward to produce what they're all working to produce.

I was going to put in some kind of thing about how the "best" directors or creators are the ones who can deal with problems without tension and hurt feelings... but frankly, it's just not true. Even the case of Wilde, like, she literally fired the actor who was a problem, so... there's going to be hurt feelings, no? Not all tense situations can be solved without someone's ego or career being bruised. So maybe best to say that the best directors are good at minimizing those situations rather than saying they never have them.

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To be clear, Wilde very much didn't say it was Eastwood - other people deduced that.

Yeah, just saying that I think it wasn't Eastwood. She's worked with other actor-directors, I'm pretty sure, so I'd think one of them is likelier. I suspect the only reason people speculated on Eastwood is just because they worked together recently on Richard Jewell, but... yeah, just doesn't sound like him or his reputation whatsoever.

ETA: I, too, enjoyed S4. It was a bit odd in spots but the stakes were tremendous and well-realized. 

 

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, KalbearAnon said:

Nah, S4 was brilliant. One of the first immediately serialized stories from week to week, where every episode was a cliffhanger to the next ep. And this was early 2000, and was super new by comparison - especially for network TV. I loved the fight about free will vs peace and love, I loved the weirdness of things, and Faith and Angelus coming back were both super awesome.

Season 4 finally made some sense of all the arbitrary stuff that happened in the earlier seasons - nobody had a plan, there were no real tangible villains who wanted anything concrete (the fact that we never actually met any of 'the Senior Partner's of Wolfram & Hart also got old pretty quick in my opinion) while a lot of pretty big things happened without any (good) reason. Those things then actually made sense in season 4 thanks to the retcon business.

And for the most part, Cordelia is the villain of that season - Jasmine is inside her until she is born. And then she is around in that form only for a couple of episodes.

Story-wise there was no reason for her to leave the show after that, and it was done in a very stupid manner.

14 minutes ago, Fez said:

IMO, the show was the best when Elisabeth Rohm was still on it, and the mythology hadn't extended too far past vampires yet.

Does anybody know why she left the show? Considering the show started to turn into a  broader ensemble show with Gunn and Fred and effectively Lorne joining the main cast in season 3, Kate could also have been such an addition.

As for Whedon in general - I like most of his early shows, but he never made any good movies, did he?

He complains about his Alien movie being bad - but it is the story that sucks (all that childish comedic parts that make a serious scary franchise into something it shouldn't be), not the direction.

And while people apparently like his Avengers movie - that's just a stupid movie about weirdo aliens invading New York. There is not much story/substance behind that, no clear villain, etc.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Does anybody know why she left the show? Considering the show started to turn into a  broader ensemble show with Gunn and Fred and effectively Lorne joining the main cast in season 3, Kate could also have been such an addition.

She went to Law and Order IIRC.

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As for Whedon in general - I like most of his early shows, but he never made any good movies, did he?

Avengers? People do really like it, and it crystallized the action comedy vibe quite well. I think a lot of it is incredibly stupid (especially compared to what the Russos did in every movie they made or what Waititi did), but it was definitely a big thing. 

 

[Ran]

I like Avengers, and definitely think the writing is just on another level compared to some of the Marvel films both before and after, but that said, I've always felt that Whedon as a visual stylist is not particularly great. The Russos are better at the action stuff, but their writing doesn't have Whedon's zip. The 2nd Avengers film, it was pretty clear Whedon was fed up with dealing with Perlmutter and was burned out.  Not his best work.

Serenity was a good film, IMO.

His Much Ado About Nothing is a good, fun take on the play, though can't match Branagh's version (but then I don't think Whedon and co. had any illusions).

[Maltaran]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

 

So far the only person who has defended Whedon from this time period is, er, Adam Baldwin, which is not really that helpful.

I think if you’d asked me to guess who was going to defend Whedon against these accusations, he would have been the most likely choice

[DMC]

Yeah Elizabeth Rohm had probably my favorite stint as Jack McCoy's deputy.  Somewhat relatedly/amusingly, when she left Law & Order, her character accused Fred Thompson of firing her because she was a lesbian.

[IlyaP]

45 minutes ago, Ran said:

At the same time, I think tense work places with tens or hundreds of millions of dollars being spent and hundreds and even thousands of collective man hours per day hinging on how things go... well, they're  exactly the kind of environment where people are liable to not always be their best, especially if things go wrong.

Who needs OH&S standards and workplace protection laws, amirite?

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

Who needs OH&S standards and workplace protection laws, amirite?

Eh? TV and movie sets are not exempt from applicable laws and regulations regarding workplaces, at least when in the US. Those laws don't mean people on sets will never get into tense situations. Yelling at someone in the course of an argument is perfectly legal. Bullying them -- repeated, unreasonable action -- is not. Harrassing them is not. Being in a bad mood is perfectly legal.

[IlyaP]

More Buffy/Angel alumns speak out.

 

https://io9.gizmodo.com/buffy-star-charisma-carpenter-accuses-joss-whedon-of-ab-1846239305

[IlyaP]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

Bullying them -- repeated, unreasonable action -- is not. Harrassing them is not.

Having read Carpenter's account, Trachtenberg, et al, this goes *way* beyond harrassment. And in no way should be defended. Plenty of people are able be professional under stressful circumstances. Whedon clearly was not one of those people. Let's not defend or make excuses for inappropriate workplace behaviour because we're all human or some such cloying phrase.

 

I've seen grace under extreme fire and I've seen ratshit toxicity under fire. Both are and always have been possible. If you hire the right people. Whedon is clearly not that. 

[Week]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

Eh? TV and movie sets are not exempt from applicable laws and regulations regarding workplaces, at least when in the US. Those laws don't mean people on sets will never get into tense situations. Yelling at someone in the course of an argument is perfectly legal. Bullying them -- repeated, unreasonable action -- is not. Harrassing them is not. Being in a bad mood is perfectly legal.

One typically also apologizes and shows some contrition for previous unacceptable behavior. Though it doesn't completely excuse bad behavior, it does put it (depending on the behavior) in a more reasonable frame. 

[Ran]

8 minutes ago, Week said:

One typically also apologizes and shows some contrition for previous unacceptable behavior. Though it doesn't completely excuse bad behavior, it does put it (depending on the behavior) in a more reasonable frame. 

I don't disagree with that, but in this specific case there's basically nothing much to say on that front because Whedon has not at this time remarked on the allegations and we don't know what, if any, discussions he has had with people in the past. We don't know if he apologized to anyone about whatever he allegedly did on Justice League (the only specific allegation from Ray Fisher that I recall, that he lightened his skin tone in grading, was refuted by Whedon as a decision done for technical reasons and, in any case one not made by him).

I know Marsters said Whedon never apologized for being pissy with him about Spike being popular, but it seems like water under the bridge considering that they continued to work together for nigh on a decade and Marsters seemed more amused than anything by that incident.

ETA:

Actually, Marsters didn't see why Whedon should have apologized and said that had the positions been reversed he would have killed off the character that was usurping his vision of the story...

I am glad that Spike was not killed off, all that said!

[Lord Varys]

It is part of the movie business to tank hundreds of millions of dollars. Some movies are a success, others aren't. If you cannot cope with that amount of stress then you are at the wrong place.

And it is not that anyone forced Whedon to take over for Snyder in the Justice League case.

I think the description James Marsters gives about the incident of Spike's popularity is rather telling about the man's character flaws - there is clearly something very wrong with him in the narcissim/control freak department. The man couldn't take it that the audience didn't agree with how he wanted things to go, and then he attacked the actor for it. That's completely inappropriate (and one could even say sick) behavior - and rather scary if the aggression behind that had been indeed not fun, as Marsters indicates.

And the whole thing about affairs and stuff also completely reeks of him enjoying being in power and controlling people. He doesn't have to be in a monogamous relationship if he doesn't want to ... but one shouldn't pretend, and definitely not hit on people from a position of power in a work environment where it was accepted/normal to force, especially, women into sexual/romantic relationships in exchange for jobs for most of the last century.

[Week]

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't disagree with that, but in this specific case there's basically nothing much to say on that front because Whedon has not at this time remarked on the allegations and we don't know what, if any, discussions he has had with people in the past. We don't know if he apologized to anyone about whatever he allegedly did on Justice League (the only specific allegation from Ray Fisher that I recall, that he lightened his skin tone in grading, was refuted by Whedon as a decision done for technical reasons and, in any case one not made by him).

Fair, that's my conjecture that it he likely did not which is why the statements are fairly severe in their anger. I think it would have been mentioned if it had happened.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

21 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't disagree with that, but in this specific case there's basically nothing much to say on that front because Whedon has not at this time remarked on the allegations and we don't know what, if any, discussions he has had with people in the past. We don't know if he apologized to anyone about whatever he allegedly did on Justice League (the only specific allegation from Ray Fisher that I recall, that he lightened his skin tone in grading, was refuted by Whedon as a decision done for technical reasons and, in any case one not made by him).

I know Marsters said Whedon never apologized for being pissy with him about Spike being popular, but it seems like water under the bridge considering that they continued to work together for nigh on a decade and Marsters seemed more amused than anything by that incident.

ETA:

Actually, Marsters didn't see why Whedon should have apologized and said that had the positions been reversed he would have killed off the character that was usurping his vision of the story...

I am glad that Spike was not killed off, all that said!

Warner Media's statement about Joss' departure following the investigation had a very, "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out" vibe. I suspect if the findings are ever made public there'll be some pretty outrageous shit there.

It's interesting that Charisma Carpenter mentioned Ray Fisher being written out of the Flash movie in her statement. Whedon had no direct involvement in that. It also occurs to me that Fisher implicated more than just Whedon.

[Ran]

Yeah, Fisher was dropped because he said he would be involved only if exec Walter Hamada was not, and WarnerMedia said, well, guess you’re out then because iur investigation didn’t lead us to feeling we needed to fire him.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Yeah, Fisher was dropped because he said he would be involved only if exec Walter Hamada was not, and WarnerMedia said, well, guess you’re out then because iur investigation didn’t lead us to feeling we needed to fire him.

The investigation concerned itself with the Justice League reshoots. Hamada arrived after.  To what extent Ray Fisher's accusations against Hamada were within the scope of the investigation isn't clear. I could be wrong.

It would be nice to know how the Jason Mamoa / Frosty movie announcement got out. It had to have originated from somewhere and it's fair to say there was probably an agenda being pushed.

This is also the studio that looked the other way at Kevin Tsujihara's activities for years. I have no idea what kind of good ol' boy networks they have in that place but I suspect they are there.

[IlyaP]

7 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

The investigation concerned itself with the Justice League reshoots. Hamada arrived after.  To what extent Ray Fisher's accusations against Hamada were within the scope of the investigation isn't clear. I could be wrong.

More information on that here: https://screenrant.com/justice-league-ray-fisher-whedon-johns-investigation-explained/

[polishgenius]

It makes me wonder what the hell WB did uncover though, especially considering that despite him officially stepping down for personal reasons after the show had mostly finished filming, as far as I've seen his name didn't appear in the trailer or official marketing materials anywhere, which isn't what you'd expect if he just left coz he was too tired to run it himself.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

As for Whedon in general - I like most of his early shows, but he never made any good movies, did he?

He complains about his Alien movie being bad - but it is the story that sucks (all that childish comedic parts that make a serious scary franchise into something it shouldn't be), not the direction.

And while people apparently like his Avengers movie - that's just a stupid movie about weirdo aliens invading New York. There is not much story/substance behind that, no clear villain, etc.

Speed was great, and the scriptwriter acknowledges that Whedon's intervention saved the film and something like 98% of the dialogue in the finished movie is from Whedon's rewrite (including a rewrite with Whedon in a room with Keanu Reeves stripping back the dialogue from its original Bruce Willis style of hero to something that would work better with Reeves). Toy Story is also pretty great, though much more of a collaborative effort. Serenity is excellent but it's really part of the TV show more than a standalone work. The first Avengers is probably the single most important film in the MCU even if it's not the best (but certainly in the top five).

Whedon is fully capable of bringing the A-game when he wants/is able to.

That has absolutely nothing to do with him also being a bully, a hypocrite and an arsehole, of course.

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It makes me wonder what the hell WB did uncover though, especially considering that despite him officially stepping down for personal reasons after the show had mostly finished filming, as far as I've seen his name didn't appear in the trailer or official marketing materials anywhere, which isn't what you'd expect if he just left coz he was too tired to run it himself.

The show had only filmed half the first season. HBO had broken it in two to get it out faster. So only the first six episodes will have Whedon's involvement. The second half won't have any involvement at all, unless he'd already written scripts.

Way back in January 2020 there were rumours that Whedon had been seen in conversation with Kevin Feige about returning to the MCU, since Whedon's problems had primarily been with Perlmutter (such as Perlmutter shooting down putting Captain Marvel and Black Panther in Age of Ultron for sexist/racist reasons) and of course he was no longer involved in the MCU, so there was already a feeling that he was just going to launch The Nevers and then sod off and leave it to other people (I suspect he wanted Espenson/Petrie to take over, but clearly HBO decided to have someone less part of the Whedon brand take over), even before the Fisher story broke.