Tyrion, Lord Protector of Winterfell?

[Canon Claude]

Let’s assume that Tywin’s plan succeeded. And by that, I mean let’s assume that Tyrion did impregnate Sansa, she produced a male child, and then they secured the North through Sansa.

My question, though, is how long Tyrion would have lasted up there. Would the North have suffered Tyrion Lannister to rule over them, even if it was in the name of his son and Eddard Stark’s grandson? And if there was a plot against Tyrion’s life, would Sansa have stood by him or helped kill him? How would Tyrion’s family have reacted?

I ask all that because it really seems to me like it was a harebrained scheme on Tywin’s part. His force of will alone wasn’t going to make the North accept Tyrion as their LP, especially if he would likely have impregnated Sansa without her consent and kept making her miserable just by existing. Or maybe Tywin knew that? It never really made sense to me why he thought he could control the North just by making Sansa’s child a half-Lannister, especially if it was done against Sansa’s will.

[Nathan Stark]

I do think it was a harebrained scheme. There is basically zero chance the North would submit to being ruled over by the Imp. Tyrion would likely have been dead within five years, and the North might well openly rebel again.

[HoodedCrow]

Tywin took Sansa off the marriage market, otherwise she could be made to align with someone like the Tyrells. He needed the consummation to happen and a child would have given him a powerful piece, and even a potential heir with good bloodlines. Also, it was a chance to offload and maybe bypass his son, who was not a good catch in that society. It diminishes the Starks as well. The brides choice is not a large consideration in Westeros.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

Let’s assume that Tywin’s plan succeeded. And by that, I mean let’s assume that Tyrion did impregnate Sansa, she produced a male child, and then they secured the North through Sansa.

My question, though, is how long Tyrion would have lasted up there. Would the North have suffered Tyrion Lannister to rule over them, even if it was in the name of his son and Eddard Stark’s grandson? And if there was a plot against Tyrion’s life, would Sansa have stood by him or helped kill him? How would Tyrion’s family have reacted?

I ask all that because it really seems to me like it was a harebrained scheme on Tywin’s part. His force of will alone wasn’t going to make the North accept Tyrion as their LP, especially if he would likely have impregnated Sansa without her consent and kept making her miserable just by existing. Or maybe Tywin knew that? It never really made sense to me why he thought he could control the North just by making Sansa’s child a half-Lannister, especially if it was done against Sansa’s will.

There's a number of places where Tywin's plan could go wrong. Let's see, just off the top of my head:

• Sansa only has one child and can't get pregnant anymore because she wasn't developed enough (this is a thing in history, just ask Margaret Beaufort mother of Henry VII)
• Stemming from that: The child is a girl. Tywin's back to square one
• The child is a dwarf (really this could apply to either gender), meaning that the Northern Lords won't accept the child since they think cripples should commit suicide

 

[HoodedCrow]

We don’t really know if Tywin’s entire plot for Sansa. He tried to get Tyrion killed in battle earlier in the book, so I don’t think there is evidence that it was a fully mature plan.

Yes, Margaret Beaufort did not have more children, but nobody was around to give an obstetrical opinion. I’ve read that people at the time were disturbed about her youth, but after marriage she was her husbands property, so no one helped her( they were going to war and fortunately for her, the husband was killed) She got remarried on the unusual condition in her contract that she would not be required to have sex. 

On paper, some VIP’s married or were engaged as children, sometimes with proxies in different counties. 

Some of the bolder women married an underling, after surviving a forced marriage, just so their male guardians would not be able to force a strategic marriage. Also the victors in a war sometimes forced highborn women to marry a lower born loyalist, so that their progeny would not be a threat. Sometimes they would just never allow women with royal blood to marry at all.

Martin found lots of inspiration in history.

 

 

[Jay21]

It would have taken a real coming together between Tyrion and Sansa and that just doesn't seem like it would have been in the cards during their short time together.  I think if they went back to Winterfell and Sansa took the lead in selling the union to the norhtern lords they would have accepted it, but if Sansa appeared to be a hostage then I don't think Tyrion would have a long reign. I doubt that getting Sansa onside with the marriage would be within Tyrion's power though - at the time anyway.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Would the North have suffered Tyrion Lannister to rule over them, even if it was in the name of his son and Eddard Stark’s grandson?

Eddard's grandson, maybe, but not Tyrion. He would have had no support, not even from his Lannister guards. Nobody respected Tyrion.

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

And if there was a plot against Tyrion’s life, would Sansa have stood by him or helped kill him?

Sansa might not have actively tried to kill him, even if he did rape her (which he would have had to do in order to get her pregnant). I could certainly see her passively stand by and do nothing to help him. Or who knows, maybe she'd have been pushed into such a desperate situation that she'd open the door for his killers, or even kill him herself.

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

How would Tyrion’s family have reacted?

Jaime would be pissed, but none of the others would care if Tyrion died. Maybe they'd use Tyrion's murder as an excuse to attaint several Northern houses that would be opposed to them? Try to install some families who'd be more compliant? Though they wouldn't last long in the North, just look at how fast the Boltons are going to be taken out.

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

I ask all that because it really seems to me like it was a harebrained scheme on Tywin’s part. His force of will alone wasn’t going to make the North accept Tyrion as their LP, especially if he would likely have impregnated Sansa without her consent and kept making her miserable just by existing. Or maybe Tywin knew that? It never really made sense to me why he thought he could control the North just by making Sansa’s child a half-Lannister, especially if it was done against Sansa’s will.

Tywin wasn't rewarding Tyrion; he wanted to get his son killed in a way that he wasn't responsible. He was sending him to the second or third most anti-Lannister place in the Seven Kingdoms so that he'd die after creating a half-Stark-half-Lannister baby to rule the North. I daresay Tywin probably didn't care whether Tyrion's line even continued, but as long as his enemies were divided and demoralised and further distanced from House Stark. In fact, I'd go so far as imagine that Tywin might even have resented the Starks for commanding such devotion from their men while Tywin ruled by fear alone. 

[Canon Claude]

52 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Tywin wasn't rewarding Tyrion; he wanted to get his son killed in a way that he wasn't responsible. He was sending him to the second or third most anti-Lannister place in the Seven Kingdoms so that he'd die after creating a half-Stark-half-Lannister baby to rule the North. I daresay Tywin probably didn't care whether Tyrion's line even continued, but as long as his enemies were divided and demoralised and further distanced from House Stark. In fact, I'd go so far as imagine that Tywin might even have resented the Starks for commanding such devotion from their men while Tywin ruled by fear alone. 

Okay, that seems a bit much on two different levels. I don’t buy that Tywin didn’t care at all about actually securing the North. Maybe he just thought family ties alone would secure it for the throne. And secondly, Tywin wasn’t sitting around moping that Ned Stark was better liked than him. He was a sociopathic Machiavellian who didn’t care whether or not he was liked as long as he was respected (ie feared).

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

Okay, that seems a bit much on two different levels. I don’t buy that Tywin didn’t care at all about actually securing the North. Maybe he just thought family ties alone would secure it for the throne. And secondly, Tywin wasn’t sitting around moping that Ned Stark was better liked than him. He was a sociopathic Machiavellian who didn’t care whether or not he was liked as long as he was respected (ie feared).

Have you reread the series recently? Tywin throws shade on Ned several times. He even uses Ned to insult Robb when he points out Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling. He could have said Robb was a stupid, naive little boy in any number of ways, but he says "Robb is his father's son." Moments like that are very telling, especially since Tywin's relationship with every member of his family was passive aggressive at best. He resented Jaime for being stubbornly refusing to leave the Kingsguard, he's disgusted with Cersei for being an impulsive and overly emotional woman, and he loathes Tyrion's very existence. He also hated his father, avoided his sister after she pointed out that Tyrion was like him, quarrelled with two his brothers, browbeat the other into becoming his shadow. He also watched his father's bannermen exploit and mock him to no end, to the point where he had to obliterate two major houses in the Westerlands. When did Ned Stark ever have to do that? The North rallied to Eddard's side en masse, whether he was alive or dead. Ned led them into war twice, and then his family members continue to command complete loyalty from most of his bannermen, and the only two houses that did turn on House Stark only did so when Robb executed Rickard Karstark and the war turned against House Stark to the point that Roose Bolton could safely get away with his treason. 

[Canon Claude]

47 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Have you reread the series recently? Tywin throws shade on Ned several times. He even uses Ned to insult Robb when he points out Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling. He could have said Robb was a stupid, naive little boy in any number of ways, but he says "Robb is his father's son." Moments like that are very telling, especially since Tywin's relationship with every member of his family was passive aggressive at best. He resented Jaime for being stubbornly refusing to leave the Kingsguard, he's disgusted with Cersei for being an impulsive and overly emotional woman, and he loathes Tyrion's very existence. He also hated his father, avoided his sister after she pointed out that Tyrion was like him, quarrelled with two his brothers, browbeat the other into becoming his shadow. He also watched his father's bannermen exploit and mock him to no end, to the point where he had to obliterate two major houses in the Westerlands. When did Ned Stark ever have to do that? The North rallied to Eddard's side en masse, whether he was alive or dead. Ned led them into war twice, and then his family members continue to command complete loyalty from most of his bannermen, and the only two houses that did turn on House Stark only did so when Robb executed Rickard Karstark and the war turned against House Stark to the point that Roose Bolton could safely get away with his treason. 

Tywin only ever really hated Tyrion, to be honest. You pointed out all those relationships, but aside from his being pissed at Genna, the only real gripe Tywin seems to have is that the family members don’t do what he wants them to do. I don’t think Tywin even has it in him to envy anyone, not even Ned Stark. Again, he’s a selfish sociopath who only cares about his own goals, except where Tyrion is concerned because his birth killed Joanna.

[Rosetta Stone]

The north was defeated.  They rebelled and lost their silly young wolf who was pretending to be king.  The Starks also suffered the humiliation of losing their castle to Theon and the Ironborn.  They won't like Tyrion but they will have to accept him.  They will suffer him and that will be that. 

[Nathan Stark]

52 minutes ago, Rosetta Stone said:

The north was defeated.  They rebelled and lost their silly young wolf who was pretending to be king.  The Starks also suffered the humiliation of losing their castle to Theon and the Ironborn.  They won't like Tyrion but they will have to accept him.  They will suffer him and that will be that. 

What makes Tyrion different from the Boltons, in your scenario?

[CamiloRP]

There were a lot of things Tywin could do to hold the position, this is what I would do, tho I assume both George and Tywin would do a better job, as they are both better at this than me.

- Have sansa deputize a lord to rule the North in her stead until she or her child go back. This lord should be a northerner loyal to Tywin (Roose) and count with the aid of Westerlander in which Tywin can trust completely, like KEvan or something, aided by a couple thousand Lannister men.

- As soon as Sansa produces a male heir, Tywin takes care into raising the boy the be a fucking loyal as shit Lannister.

- Meanwhile, this new lord rebuilds Winterfell (exactly as it was) and returns Ned's bones (they can use fake bones, there are plenty around, and no one would notice). The household of Winterfell would be occupied by Lannister men, using a Lannister maester and giving the important positions to off brand Lannisters, like Daven and such.

- If Sansa has any other child, he does the same thing as he did with the other. The more children Sansa has, the better.

- When the child is old enough to rule, him and his parents return to Winterfell.

- Every Sansa/Tyrion child weds into a powerful Northerner house, again, the more the better. 

 

[The Young Maester]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

There were a lot of things Tywin could do to hold the position, this is what I would do, tho I assume both George and Tywin would do a better job, as they are both better at this than me.

- Have sansa deputize a lord to rule the North in her stead until she or her child go back. This lord should be a northerner loyal to Tywin (Roose) and count with the aid of Westerlander in which Tywin can trust completely, like KEvan or something, aided by a couple thousand Lannister men.

- As soon as Sansa produces a male heir, Tywin takes care into raising the boy the be a fucking loyal as shit Lannister.

- Meanwhile, this new lord rebuilds Winterfell (exactly as it was) and returns Ned's bones (they can use fake bones, there are plenty around, and no one would notice). The household of Winterfell would be occupied by Lannister men, using a Lannister maester and giving the important positions to off brand Lannisters, like Daven and such.

- If Sansa has any other child, he does the same thing as he did with the other. The more children Sansa has, the better.

- When the child is old enough to rule, him and his parents return to Winterfell.

- Every Sansa/Tyrion child weds into a powerful Northerner house, again, the more the better. 

 

This was the purpose of roose Bolton. Tywin had him named warden of the north. And was probably going to make him step down once he has a grandson through sansa. 

[CamiloRP]

6 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

This was the purpose of roose Bolton. Tywin had him named warden of the north. And was probably going to make him step down once he has a grandson through sansa. 

Yep.

[Canon Claude]

8 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

This was the purpose of roose Bolton. Tywin had him named warden of the north. And was probably going to make him step down once he has a grandson through sansa. 

Maybe if Sansa had a boy and Walda Frey had a girl, they would have been engaged so that Roose’s child still lives in Winterfell in a position of power.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Let’s assume that Tywin’s plan succeeded. And by that, I mean let’s assume that Tyrion did impregnate Sansa, she produced a male child, and then they secured the North through Sansa.

My question, though, is how long Tyrion would have lasted up there. Would the North have suffered Tyrion Lannister to rule over them, even if it was in the name of his son and Eddard Stark’s grandson? And if there was a plot against Tyrion’s life, would Sansa have stood by him or helped kill him? How would Tyrion’s family have reacted?

I ask all that because it really seems to me like it was a harebrained scheme on Tywin’s part. His force of will alone wasn’t going to make the North accept Tyrion as their LP, especially if he would likely have impregnated Sansa without her consent and kept making her miserable just by existing. Or maybe Tywin knew that? It never really made sense to me why he thought he could control the North just by making Sansa’s child a half-Lannister, especially if it was done against Sansa’s will.

Tyrion would likely have served as MoC for a number of years in King's Landing, at least long enough for Tywin to defeat Stannis, who was still on (or believed to be on) Dragonstone at this point. Once all the fighting in the south was done, and depending on how long the winter lasted, Tywin would then send Tyrion, Sansa, their child and a substantial army into the north to liberate the northern castles from either the ironmen, the wildlings, or both. By restoring the northern lords (if any still remained) to their seats, or appointing new lords in their steads, Tyrion gains the loyalty of the north -- plus he has an ample army of Lannister soldiers and servants to protect him in Winterfell.

That's the thinking anyway. I'm curious, though, if Tywin has ever heard the phrase "the north remembers,"

[frenin]

18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Tyrion would likely have served as MoC for a number of years in King's Landing, at least long enough for Tywin to defeat Stannis, who was still on (or believed to be on) Dragonstone at this point. Once all the fighting in the south was done, and depending on how long the winter lasted, Tywin would then send Tyrion, Sansa, their child and a substantial army into the north to liberate the northern castles from either the ironmen, the wildlings, or both. By restoring the northern lords (if any still remained) to their seats, or appointing new lords in their steads, Tyrion gains the loyalty of the north -- plus he has an ample army of Lannister soldiers and servants to protect him in Winterfell.

That's the thinking anyway. I'm curious, though, if Tywin has ever heard the phrase "the north remembers,"

Tywin was too lazy for that. He fully expected the North (read Boltons) to get rid of the wildlings and the Ironmen with no help whatsoever and then Tyrion and Sansa just present themselves with his grandson and profit.

He never live to see the plan backfiring espectacularly so props to him. 

 

[Lord Lannister]

That title would've looked good on Tyrion's tombstone. 

Maybe if Tywin sent a contingent of Lannister guards and household, enough to populate Winterfell, he could've effectively ruled it. Projecting any meaningful authority outside of it? Nope.

[John Suburbs]

On 2/11/2021 at 11:48 AM, frenin said:

Tywin was too lazy for that. He fully expected the North (read Boltons) to get rid of the wildlings and the Ironmen with no help whatsoever and then Tyrion and Sansa just present themselves with his grandson and profit.

He never live to see the plan backfiring espectacularly so props to him. 

 

That was later, after Tywin had lost Tyrion and Sansa and after he had removed Robb and the northern army at the Twins, and after Stannis had left Dragonstone. His initial plan was:

Quote

"The key to the north, you say? The Greyjoys hold the north now, and King Balon has a daughter. Why Sansa Stark and not her?"

"Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark's grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to replace him on the high seat of his ancestors."