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Angel Eyes

Why did Jaime lie about Tysha?

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22 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Then why was Jaime the only one who did anything? I mean, there wasn't even a GC trying to kill Aerys's to get a reward from Robert.

Jaime was the only one in such situation. Jaime was going to be burned alive alongside his father and his friends alike.  Jaime did nothing until his hand was forced.

22 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

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On 2/13/2021 at 10:36 AM, saltedmalted said:

Why? He knows how brutal a man his father is. 

That is your perception of him. That may not be the perception of him from his son in the medieval age, a much more brutal and unforgiving age.

Try to imagine just for one second, that Jamie may not think of Tywin as you think of him.

On 2/13/2021 at 10:36 AM, saltedmalted said:

He had her gangraped by his guards, then made his son do the same. 

He did not make Tyrion do that. Tyrion believes he had a choice in the matter and he believes it was his own cock that made him choose.

In their society whores are there to be 'raped', it is what Tyrion has done all his life. That is why he wants Jaime dead. She was not a whore and his brother and father told him she was.

On 2/13/2021 at 10:36 AM, saltedmalted said:

She wasn't stealing anything. Tytos Lannister let her do as she pleased, and that includes letting her wear expensive jewels.

She was stealing according to Kevan

Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels!

 

If you have a source that proves Kevan was wrong or lying then I'd love to hear it, but until then pointing out that she stole as well as overreached her position

Within a year she was dismissing servants, ordering about his household knights, even speaking for his lordship when he was indisposed. She grew so influential that it was said about Lannisport that any man who wished for his petition to be heard should kneel before her and speak loudly to her lap … for Tytos Lannister's ear was between his lady's legs. She had even taken to wearing their mother's jewels.

 

Which is another reason why she was punished. It is a hugely elitist society, can't have commoners acting like nobility.

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On 2/13/2021 at 12:11 PM, frenin said:

Songs ordered by Tywin

Got a source for that chief?

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or made to flatter Tywin and the Lannisters, i very much doubt that's a good bar. 

How is it not a good bar? It shows what impresses people in this society.

Westeros does not see what happened to the Reynes and Tarbecks as a mark against the Lannisters, they see it as a positive. A Lord who put down vassals who rebelled.

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That bards making flattering songs about the victors and the new guys in power is nothing new.

No one claimed it was new. What on earth are you talking about now?

 

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We are not told either way. 

Yes we are. The constant songs about them to flatter the Lannisters. The Lannisters are not requesting these bards to sing these songs to them again and again.

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Especially because those who can't shut up about the Reynes tend to be Lannister. We do not have many, if any, opinions of the matter from the people of Westeros.

Why would the nine bards all sing about it? None were Lannisters, all were trying to impress them.

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And this is coming from a very pro Lannister source. 

lol and you think this proves what? Did you read the rest of the passage? It is a negative piece or positive piece about how Tywin dealt with the situation?

 

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On 2/13/2021 at 3:02 PM, Angel Eyes said:

That's not the point I was trying to make; the point was that Jaime said he didn't know what Tywin was going to do to Tysha and I say that's impossible

How can it be impossible? How many other women had Tywin had gangraped? Better yet, how many women does Jaime know that Tywin had gangraped at that point?

Either you simply don't understand what 'impossible' means or you have trouble separating your own thoughts on Tywin to the thoughts of his own son. Do you not realize that the two of you may have different perceptions of Tywin?

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because Tywin is known to be responsible for a number of harsh actions.

It is a harsh and brutal time. That does not mean Jaime should assume Tysha would be ordered to be gangraped. You see that, right?

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In Jaime's case he believed that Tywin wouldn't hurt Rhaenys, Aegon, and Elia.

The children were in the line of succession. There is a legitimate reason why they were disposed of.

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If he didn't know then, he definitely would have known three years later with what Tywin would do to Tysha.

But he did not find out what happened to Tysha till a decade later.

 

 

Edited by Bernie Mac

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34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Got a source for that chief?

Do you have a source that says that bards wrote the songs because they (or the people at the time) thought what Tywin has done was awesome??

There are two reasons bards make that kind of songs, either they are paid (ordered) to do so or they simply want to ingrate themselves with the victors. The songs are good PR and within time they make the actions of the victors (and their actions) more palatable to lords and folks alike. I don't really think this is something new or unique to Tywin, we see how that works time after time. Why Tywin is different??

 

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

How is it not a good bar? It shows what impresses people in this society.

... No, it does not. It shows how good PR can sway people one way or the other.

However the primary target for the songs was not likely to be anyone but Tywin and the Lannisters.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

How is it not a good bar? It shows what impresses people in this society.

That's entirely your own assumption based entirely on PR songs based to flatter the Lannister.

Had that been the case people would not have accused Tywin of brutality. We don't know what most people thought about the matter, we do know that he automatically became a man not mess with after the fact.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No one claimed it was new. What on earth are you talking about now?

Then why are you conflating the fact that bards make PR songs for Tywin with the fact that people always liked Tywin's dealing with the revolt??

 

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes we are. The constant songs about them to flatter the Lannisters. The Lannisters are not requesting these bards to sing these songs to them again and again.

No, we are not. The constant songs about it to flatter the Lannisters.  It does not matter that the Lannisters do not request these bards to sing these songs again and again (which we don't really know btw), the songs are literally meant to please them and the bards will do it as many times as they possibly can.

 

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would the nine bards all sing about it? None were Lannisters, all were trying to impress them.

Sure, songs about flattering their target.

 

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol and you think this proves what? Did you read the rest of the passage? It is a negative piece or positive piece about how Tywin dealt with the situation?

It is a negative i would say, especially because this come from pro Lannister source.

The fact that none could dispute that order was restored does not mean at any rate that they at the time liked one bit how Tywin went about it.

Edited by frenin

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2 hours ago, frenin said:

Jaime was the only one in such situation. Jaime was going to be burned alive alongside his father and his friends alike.  Jaime did nothing until his hand was forced.

Varys could've done something, I assume that Aerys had more than one bodyguard with him, so them too, and the alchemists.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is your perception of him. That may not be the perception of him from his son in the medieval age, a much more brutal and unforgiving age.

Try to imagine just for one second, that Jamie may not think of Tywin as you think of him.

He did not make Tyrion do that. Tyrion believes he had a choice in the matter and he believes it was his own cock that made him choose.

In their society whores are there to be 'raped', it is what Tyrion has done all his life. That is why he wants Jaime dead. She was not a whore and his brother and father told him she was.

She was stealing according to Kevan

Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels!

 

If you have a source that proves Kevan was wrong or lying then I'd love to hear it, but until then pointing out that she stole as well as overreached her position

Within a year she was dismissing servants, ordering about his household knights, even speaking for his lordship when he was indisposed. She grew so influential that it was said about Lannisport that any man who wished for his petition to be heard should kneel before her and speak loudly to her lap … for Tytos Lannister's ear was between his lady's legs. She had even taken to wearing their mother's jewels.

 

Which is another reason why she was punished. It is a hugely elitist society, can't have commoners acting like nobility.

I don't think she actually stole, I mean, what for? Tytos would've given her anything she wanted. But it makes no difference, as both Tywin and Kevan see it as stealing either way.

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7 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yeah, maybe. I don't think he's aware of the treat? I mean, he continued living in KL for a long time.

Surely Jamie isn't that dumb. You don't just leave a bomb lying around a city waiting for any random person to eventually find it.

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

If you have a source that proves Kevan was wrong or lying then I'd love to hear it, but until then pointing out that she stole as well as overreached her position

He didn't say she stole them.

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He did not make Tyrion do that. Tyrion believes he had a choice in the matter and he believes it was his own cock that made him choose.

Forgotten the guards? If she was so irrelevant why did he not simply banish her ?

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He did not make Tyrion do that. Tyrion believes he had a choice in the matter and he believes it was his own cock that made him choose.

Try to think for a minute instead of posting bizarre comments. It doesn't matter if jaime thinks Tywin Lannister's actions are justified or not. He knows what his reaction would be.

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Which is another reason why she was punished. It is a hugely elitist society, can't have commoners acting like nobility.

A person stealing from the Lannisters would be considered a simple thief and be punished like one.

Tytos' mistress was punished in a specific way to humiliate her. Tytos handed her everything and once he was dead nobody would stop his son from doing whatever he wished to do to her.

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1 hour ago, saltedmalted said:

Tytos' mistress was punished in a specific way to humiliate her. Tytos handed her everything and once he was dead nobody would stop his son from doing whatever he wished to do to her.

It's been a while, but did Tytos mistress ever steal anything. I know he gave her his former wife's jewels, but a gift is not theft. I was always under the assumption that Tywin hated her for the "crime" of sleeping with his father. Granted, this turned out to be another way Tywin himself was a hypocrite in the end, considering who Tyrion found in his fathers bed shortly before he killed him.

Edited by sifth

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4 minutes ago, sifth said:

but did Tytos mistress ever steal anything.

I don't think she did. 

If she was a thief running away with expensive jewels then she would have been executed. Most likely Tytos gave her everything she wanted.

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6 hours ago, sifth said:

Surely Jamie isn't that dumb. You don't just leave a bomb lying around a city waiting for any random person to eventually find it.

Tyrion removed part of the bomb by moving whatever's around the Sept in ACOK, but the rest...

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9 hours ago, sifth said:

Surely Jamie isn't that dumb. You don't just leave a bomb lying around a city waiting for any random person to eventually find it.

Yeah, I know, but he kept living in KL afterwards. So he's either real dumb or he did something bout it and we just don't know.

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On 2/11/2021 at 8:20 AM, CamiloRP said:

Killing Aerys was the most morally brave in the story, either that or Ned telling Cersei.

The real moral thing would have been for Ned not to tell Robert, EVER.  He knew 100% for certain that telling Robert, when Cersei insisted she wouldn't run away, would mean condemning 3 kids to death.   Under no circumstances is that justified, no matter how much Ned loves his BFF.   Ned understood that right enough during Robert's rebellion, when he promised Lyanna to hide Jon (assuming R+L=J is true in the books and Ned promised to keep Jon safe there as well).  He loved Robert no less back then, but kept the secret to protect baby Jon.  Myrcella and Tommen were no less innocent.  Heck, even if Joffrey had yet to earn a death sentence.  Those kids were Tyrion's niece and nephews (and Jaime's, even if they're also his children), just assuredly as Jon in R+L=J is Ned and Benjen's.   Ned wasn't morally brave in warning Cersei he planned to put her children in mortal danger (even if they did run, Robert would have sent assassins, which Ned knows and admits as well).  He was just trying to sop his consciences before he did something immoral.  

Edited by aeverett

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23 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The children were in the line of succession. There is a legitimate reason why they were disposed of.

Exactly.  Tywin had people killed for specific reasons, not because he enjoyed killing.  For this reason, I don't think he ordered Elia raped or murdered.  She made a far better bargaining chip alive.   Her killing, and especially her rape, sounds far more like the Mountain's choice.  Yes, you could argue that Tywin should have been held accountable for the Mountains actions, as he was carrying out the hit on little Rhaenys and baby Aegon at the time it happened, but saying he ordered Elia raped or murdered is unfair as we have no proof and it seems out of character for Tywin.  

Edited by aeverett

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22 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Varys could've done something, I assume that Aerys had more than one bodyguard with him, so them too, and the alchemists.

We're not told about who was with him and who else knew it.

 

1 hour ago, aeverett said:

The real moral thing would have been for Ned not to tell Robert, EVER.  He knew 100% for certain that telling Robert, when Cersei insisted she wouldn't run away, would mean condemning 3 kids to death.

That wouldn't have been the moral thing. Since the secret was already out and Stannis would start shit no matter war. I'd say that 3 kids aren't worth the War of the 5 Kings. No matter how pretty they are.

Ned tried to shield the kids by telling Cersei and he ended up being killed by those he pretended to save.

 

 

1 hour ago, aeverett said:

Ned understood that right enough during Robert's rebellion, when he promised Lyanna to hide Jon (assuming R+L=J is true in the books and Ned promised to keep Jon safe there as well).  He loved Robert no less back then, but kept the secret to protect baby Jon.  Myrcella and Tommen were no less innocent.  Heck, even if Joffrey had yet to earn a death sentence.  Those kids were Tyrion's niece and nephews (and Jaime's, even if they're also his children), just assuredly as Jon in R+L=J is Ned and Benjen's. 

Jon was hidden, exact thing he wanted for the 3 kids. 

Jon was never heir to any Throne again, that would've gotten him killed asap, he was Ned's bastard.

I don't see how them being Tyrion's nephews should guarantee a pass but okey.

 

 

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Ned wasn't morally brave in warning Cersei he planned to put her children in mortal danger (even if they did run, Robert would have sent assassins, which Ned knows and admits as well). He was just trying to sop his consciences before he did something immoral.  

He took a risk by warning someone he despised, someone who had conspired against his King, crippled his son and as far as he could tell attempted to finish the job and had killed his surrogate father.

The one who put the children in mortal danger was Cersei, not Ned. He gave them an out, the only possible that didn't include their execution or a future war,  he told her to get her inmediate family and go to exile. A far better deal than her husband's bastards were given.

 

 

1 hour ago, aeverett said:

Tywin had people killed for specific reasons, not because he enjoyed killing.

Like when he hung the Innkeeper for the crime of not stopping the wife of the Hand of the King and her dozens of swords.

 

 

1 hour ago, aeverett said:

She made a far better bargaining chip alive.   Her killing, and especially her rape, sounds far more like the Mountain's choice. 

Yet Tywin didn't think that at the time, not even when he planned to killed her children and piss Dorne off.

I don't really see what about Elia's fate that doesn't fit Tywin's persona. He's the same man that would order the Tysha's gangrape. He's perfectly capable of order Gregor to do so.

We'll likely never know for certain.

 

 

1 hour ago, aeverett said:

and it seems out of character for Tywin.  

It really does seem within character.

You're right that we shouldn't put the blame on him until solid proof is given to rule out one or the other possibility.

Until then it will come down whether you consider Tywin cruel and petty enough to order such thing.

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3 hours ago, aeverett said:

The real moral thing would have been for Ned not to tell Robert, EVER.  He knew 100% for certain that telling Robert, when Cersei insisted she wouldn't run away, would mean condemning 3 kids to death.   Under no circumstances is that justified, no matter how much Ned loves his BFF.   Ned understood that right enough during Robert's rebellion, when he promised Lyanna to hide Jon (assuming R+L=J is true in the books and Ned promised to keep Jon safe there as well).  He loved Robert no less back then, but kept the secret to protect baby Jon.  Myrcella and Tommen were no less innocent.  Heck, even if Joffrey had yet to earn a death sentence.  Those kids were Tyrion's niece and nephews (and Jaime's, even if they're also his children), just assuredly as Jon in R+L=J is Ned and Benjen's.   Ned wasn't morally brave in warning Cersei he planned to put her children in mortal danger (even if they did run, Robert would have sent assassins, which Ned knows and admits as well).  He was just trying to sop his consciences before he did something immoral.  

I don't agree. First of all, I really think that Ned could've convinced Robert to spare the kids, second of all, getting Joffrey off the throne should be the priority, he was a sadist and Ned knew it, far more than three children died because he was in the throne.

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3 hours ago, aeverett said:

Exactly.  Tywin had people killed for specific reasons, not because he enjoyed killing.  For this reason, I don't think he ordered Elia raped or murdered.  She made a far better bargaining chip alive.   Her killing, and especially her rape, sounds far more like the Mountain's choice.  Yes, you could argue that Tywin should have been held accountable for the Mountains actions, as he was carrying out the hit on little Rhaenys and baby Aegon at the time it happened, but saying he ordered Elia raped or murdered is unfair as we have no proof and it seems out of character for Tywin.  

Yes he should have been held accountable; doesn’t he say in the first book that the actions of a subordinate are the responsibility of a commander? Unless he doesn’t actually believe his own words, which is also possible.

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On 2/15/2021 at 7:23 AM, CamiloRP said:

Varys could've done something, I assume that Aerys had more than one bodyguard with him, so them too, and the alchemists.

Didn't Aerys only allow the Kingsguard be armed around him?

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8 hours ago, frenin said:

We're not told about who was with him and who else knew it.

 

That wouldn't have been the moral thing. Since the secret was already out and Stannis would start shit no matter war. I'd say that 3 kids aren't worth the War of the 5 Kings. No matter how pretty they are.

Ned tried to shield the kids by telling Cersei and he ended up being killed by those he pretended to save.

 

 

Jon was hidden, exact thing he wanted for the 3 kids. 

Jon was never heir to any Throne again, that would've gotten him killed asap, he was Ned's bastard.

I don't see how them being Tyrion's nephews should guarantee a pass but okey.

 

 

He took a risk by warning someone he despised, someone who had conspired against his King, crippled his son and as far as he could tell attempted to finish the job and had killed his surrogate father.

The one who put the children in mortal danger was Cersei, not Ned. He gave them an out, the only possible that didn't include their execution or a future war,  he told her to get her inmediate family and go to exile. A far better deal than her husband's bastards were given.

 

 

Like when he hung the Innkeeper for the crime of not stopping the wife of the Hand of the King and her dozens of swords.

 

 

Yet Tywin didn't think that at the time, not even when he planned to killed her children and piss Dorne off.

I don't really see what about Elia's fate that doesn't fit Tywin's persona. He's the same man that would order the Tysha's gangrape. He's perfectly capable of order Gregor to do so.

We'll likely never know for certain.

 

 

It really does seem within character.

You're right that we shouldn't put the blame on him until solid proof is given to rule out one or the other possibility.

Until then it will come down whether you consider Tywin cruel and petty enough to order such thing.

Firstly, Cersei's bad actions are irrelevant in determining the morality of Ned's decision to expose her children's paternity and in doing so, almost certainly signing their death warrant.   Morality isn't about what others do.  It's about what you do when faced with a tough choice.  Ned's writing Stannis was the same as telling Robert as, had Robert lived, Stannis would have told Robert.   My point about Tyrion was that Ned knew what it was like to be an uncle who'd loose a beloved nephew if Robert discovered their true parentage.   He wanted HIS nephew protected, but wasn't willing to protect Tyrion's, or his niece either if it made his BFF look bad.  

What's more, Ned knowing Joffrey is a sadist doesn't mean Ned had to expose the children's paternity to Robert.   Robert was well aware of Joffrey's personality disorder, and if Robert had lived, Ned could have stayed on, helped him in guiding Joffrey, or at least attempted to.   He could have given Robert a kick in the pants about his bad parenting and letting Cersei control his heir.  He never did that.  If Robert died, Ned could have told Stannis but urged peace with the Lannisters.  Joffrey and the kids would be spared, but loose any right to the throne.   Stannis is rigid, and he'd demand Cersei and Jaime's heads.  However, he wouldn't murder innocent children if they bent the knee and a peaceful solution could be found to get him his rightful throne.    

As to the issue of Elia Martell's death.  Tywin had no beef with Elia.  She was a woman who did what she was told to by her older, male relatives, and thus didn't do anything 'wrong' in Tywin's eyes.  Her children were the threat, not her, so killing her would have been unnecessary.  Tyrion did do wrong.  He married a common girl.  Tywin had to punish him.  Tywin isn't as petty as you'd like to make him out to be.  The Mountain is.  

As for Tywin not seeing Elia as a bargaining chip, that's BS.  Yes, Tywin killed her children, but she was still useful in keeping her brothers at heel.   Just because Tywin has no genuine feelings for his own relatives, outside of shame and disgust in regards to Tyrion, doesn't mean he can't recognize the bonds between family members in other people.   Tywin knew Oberyn, and likely Dorran, loved their sister.  They'd be pissed at their niece and nephew's deaths, but if the Lannister's had Elia hostage, they'd likely be kept in check.  

We know for a fact that Tywin told the Mountain and Amory Lorch to kill the Targaryen children.  He likely failed to mention Elia, assuming the Mountain would just bring her to him after the fact.  The Mountain didn't.  

Edited by aeverett

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