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Angel Eyes

Why did Jaime lie about Tysha?

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50 minutes ago, aeverett said:

 

We know for a fact that Tywin told the Mountain and Amory Lorch to kill the Targaryen children.  He likely failed to mention Elia, assuming the Mountain would just bring her to him after the fact.  The Mountain didn't.  

You don’t just fail to mention an order to someone unless you’re an idiot, particularly when you’re dealing with someone like The Mountain. 

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20 minutes ago, aeverett said:

Firstly, Cersei's bad actions are irrelevant in determining the morality of Ned's decision to expose her children's paternity and in doing so, almost certainly signing their death warrant.  Morality isn't about what others do.  It's about what you do when faced with a tough choice. 

True but they certainly serve as a comparison. Ned is not trying to sign their death warrant. Hence he tells them to flee before Rpbert comes, Ned is giving them plenty of time to pack and leave.

What Ned was not going to allow was for the children to remain as royals, just as he didn't allow Jon to remain as a Targaryen, which is the sensible option, not only because he was not about to let bastards on a Throne he had bled to win but because when, nor if, the secret went out you have a civil war in your hands.

 

24 minutes ago, aeverett said:

Ned's writing Stannis was the same as telling Robert as, had Robert lived, Stannis would have told Robert.

I don't really know what's the point of this, But Ned only wrote Stannis about the succesion when Rpbert was dying. And Ned already suspected  Stannis knew and if Stannis knows, he's not going to let bastards steal "his inheritance" and so you have war and more than three children dying.

 

27 minutes ago, aeverett said:

My point about Tyrion was that Ned knew what it was like to be an uncle who'd loose a beloved nephew if Robert discovered their true parentage.   He wanted HIS nephew protected, but wasn't willing to protect Tyrion's, or his niece either if it made his BFF look bad. 

Why in the world should Ned give a damn about Tyrion??

Ned did try to protect the children.  That's the whole reason why he tells Cersei to run.

Jon was protected by being made a bastard, Cersei's children would be protected by exile. None of those are truly pleasant for the kids but it's better than the grave. You're arguing the very opposite, let Cersei get away with consequences be damned.

 

 

31 minutes ago, aeverett said:

What's more, Ned knowing Joffrey is a sadist doesn't mean Ned had to expose the children's paternity to Robert. 

Ned didn't know about  Joffrey's... tendencies.

 

 

32 minutes ago, aeverett said:

Robert was well aware of Joffrey's personality disorder, and if Robert had lived, Ned could have stayed on, helped him in guiding Joffrey, or at least attempted to.   He could have given Robert a kick in the pants about his bad parenting and letting Cersei control his heir.

Sure, he could have done all that... Had Joffrey truly been Robert's seed. He wasn't so he could not sit in the throne. Why would Ned allow someone he considers has no right to sit on the throne?

 

 

34 minutes ago, aeverett said:

If Robert died, Ned could have told Stannis but urged peace with the Lannisters.  Joffrey and the kids would be spared, but loose any right to the throne.   Stannis is rigid, and he'd demand Cersei and Jaime's heads.  However, he wouldn't murder innocent children if they bent the knee and a peaceful solution could be found to get him his rightful throne.    

Stannis already knew and so it was a matter of time the secret got out. Ned was not trying to get the children killed (especially after Robert dies) so your argument doesn't really hold water.

 

 

37 minutes ago, aeverett said:

Tywin had no beef with Elia. 

Hard to tell.

 

38 minutes ago, aeverett said:

She was a woman who did what she was told to by her older, male relatives, and thus didn't do anything 'wrong' in Tywin's eyes.

We are not told what Tywin thought about her.

 

 

40 minutes ago, aeverett said:

Tyrion did do wrong.  He married a common girl.  Tywin had to punish him.  Tywin isn't as petty as you'd like to make him out to be. 

"Did wrong". 

Tyrion could have been punished of several ways, gangrape however sounds very Gregor-ish and it's extremely petty. Just as his treatment to Masha Heddle and his father's mistress...

 

 

47 minutes ago, aeverett said:

As for Tywin not seeing Elia as a bargaining chip, that's BS.  Yes, Tywin killed her children, but she was still useful in keeping her brothers at heel. 

Tywin himself says that he was not thinking about her. 

I agree that not doing it when he was set out to murder her children was odd yet...

 

 

49 minutes ago, aeverett said:

We know for a fact that Tywin told the Mountain and Amory Lorch to kill the Targaryen children.  He likely failed to mention Elia, assuming the Mountain would just bring her to him after the fact.  The Mountain didn't.  

Why would he assume that they would bring her in?? And why would he fail to mention that an important bargaining chip should be spared??

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4 hours ago, Minsc said:

Didn't Aerys only allow the Kingsguard be armed around him?

Honestly I don't remember, tho it makes sense after Duskendale, but at that point in the war he only had one KG, Jaime, so he couldn't be protected 24/7 if that was the case.

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6 hours ago, frenin said:

True but they certainly serve as a comparison. Ned is not trying to sign their death warrant. Hence he tells them to flee before Rpbert comes, Ned is giving them plenty of time to pack and leave.

What Ned was not going to allow was for the children to remain as royals, just as he didn't allow Jon to remain as a Targaryen, which is the sensible option, not only because he was not about to let bastards on a Throne he had bled to win but because when, nor if, the secret went out you have a civil war in your hands.

 

I don't really know what's the point of this, But Ned only wrote Stannis about the succesion when Rpbert was dying. And Ned already suspected  Stannis knew and if Stannis knows, he's not going to let bastards steal "his inheritance" and so you have war and more than three children dying.

 

Why in the world should Ned give a damn about Tyrion??

Ned did try to protect the children.  That's the whole reason why he tells Cersei to run.

Jon was protected by being made a bastard, Cersei's children would be protected by exile. None of those are truly pleasant for the kids but it's better than the grave. You're arguing the very opposite, let Cersei get away with consequences be damned.

 

 

Ned didn't know about  Joffrey's... tendencies.

 

 

Sure, he could have done all that... Had Joffrey truly been Robert's seed. He wasn't so he could not sit in the throne. Why would Ned allow someone he considers has no right to sit on the throne?

 

 

Stannis already knew and so it was a matter of time the secret got out. Ned was not trying to get the children killed (especially after Robert dies) so your argument doesn't really hold water.

 

 

Hard to tell.

 

We are not told what Tywin thought about her.

 

 

"Did wrong". 

Tyrion could have been punished of several ways, gangrape however sounds very Gregor-ish and it's extremely petty. Just as his treatment to Masha Heddle and his father's mistress...

 

 

Tywin himself says that he was not thinking about her. 

I agree that not doing it when he was set out to murder her children was odd yet...

 

 

Why would he assume that they would bring her in?? And why would he fail to mention that an important bargaining chip should be spared??

Firstly, Ned had options with Jon too.  Why didn't he run away with Jon to the Port of Ibben or the Summer Isles or the Free Cities as he suggests Cersei do?  You think this confrontation with Cersei was some benevolence on his part, not a means of sopping his conscience about putting 3 kids at risk, but if exile is so great, why didn't he do that with Jon?  Remember, Robb was already alive and protected by Hoster Tully, and Benjen hadn't yet joined the Night's Watch.   That meant Winterfell had male heirs.  No, Ned wasn't all that concerned about Robert's honor or his throne when it was Jon's life on the line (being a bastard would have meant nothing to Robert, Jon, if R+L=J is true, still makes Jon Rhaegar's biological son and Robert's enemy), but all of a sudden these things become important when Cersei's kids are bastards.   Ned didn't mind getting away without consequences for deceiving Robert about Jon, why should he suddenly care so much about Cersei's deception?  Face it.  Ned was playing the game of thrones.  He lost.

And yes, Ned knew of Joffrey's temperament.  He'd had to put down Lady for it.  He'd witnessed some of it and Robert had told him that he'd run off to the Free Cities and become a sellsword if he didn't fear Joffrey on the Iron Throne.   Yes, Ned had a hard road head of him regardless of what he did, and his choice was understandable, but understandable and MORAL are not the same thing. 

The moral choice would have been not to place 3 childrens' lives in danger and work to find a peaceful solution where Joffrey was denied the throne, but not his life or the lives of his siblings.   Perhaps he could have used his influence, once safe with Stannis, to get the other Kingdoms behind Stannis.  Renly would see which way the wind was blowing and bend the knee under those circumstances, and with him the Reach.  Once it became clear that only the Westerlands would back Tywin, he would have sued for peace.  The kids would have been declared bastards and sent back to Casterly Rock.  So long as he got Jaime back alive and removed from the King's guard, Tywin would have bent the knee to Stannis, and Ned could have worked to get Stannis to accept not being able to punish Jaime beyond exile as the price for a peaceful, and less indebted (Tywin would have had to forgive the loans he gave Robert as part of the deal), realm.   Stannis would not have gone after Cersei and Jamie's kids if they accepted their bastardy and bent the knee.  He's too much of a legalist for that, and being a bastard born of incest isn't a crime in and of itself in Westeros.  

As for Tywin's feeling on Elia, you're right that w e can't know, but there is no evidence that he had anything against her, certainly nothing that would see him order her raped and murdered.

And yes, from the Westerosi point of view, Tyrion did 'do wrong' in marrying Tysha, as did Tysha.   To you and I there was nothing improper, but Tywin needed to punish Tyrion, and Tysha, and having Tysha gangraped was his method of doing so.   It was a means to an end, getting Tyrion to stop humiliating House Lannister as much as possible.   

That's not petty in Westeros, especially when your family has such a high position in the realm.   Same thing with  Masha Heddle, Chitaya's daughter, Tytos' mistress, etc.   From Tywin's point of view, that's survival, while holding onto power.    Tytos' failures had taught Tywin how fragile a house's reputation could be, and Tyrion's existence was already a threat to that reputation, yet Tyrion kept throwing fuel on the fire, sticking out and refusing to behave by Tywin's point of view.   I'm not justifying Tywin's actions, only proving that Tywin saw them as imperative and gave them thought.  They were not petty or driven by instability.   If anything, they were sociopathic, driven by too much reason coupled with too little empathy.

Edited by aeverett

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5 hours ago, aeverett said:

Why didn't he run away with Jon to the Port of Ibben or the Summer Isles or the Free Cities as he suggests Cersei do?  You think this confrontation with Cersei was some benevolence on his part, not a means of sopping his conscience about putting 3 kids at risk, but if exile is so great, why didn't he do that with Jon?

:rolleyes:

Ned did not try to use Jon and place him on a throne like Cersei did with her children. I expect Cersei's children would have to live under new identities in exile, just like Jon.

 

Edited by saltedmalted

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8 hours ago, aeverett said:

Firstly, Ned had options with Jon too.  Why didn't he run away with Jon to the Port of Ibben or the Summer Isles or the Free Cities as he suggests Cersei do?  You think this confrontation with Cersei was some benevolence on his part, not a means of sopping his conscience about putting 3 kids at risk, but if exile is so great, why didn't he do that with Jon?  Remember, Robb was already alive and protected by Hoster Tully, and Benjen hadn't yet joined the Night's Watch.   That meant Winterfell had male heirs.  No, Ned wasn't all that concerned about Robert's honor or his throne when it was Jon's life on the line (being a bastard would have meant nothing to Robert, Jon, if R+L=J is true, still makes Jon Rhaegar's biological son and Robert's enemy), but all of a sudden these things become important when Cersei's kids are bastards.   Ned didn't mind getting away without consequences for deceiving Robert about Jon, why should he suddenly care so much about Cersei's deception?  Face it.  Ned was playing the game of thrones.  He lost.

You're being willingly preposterous.

Jon had other options but exile, that's why he is raised as Ned's bastard.  Cersei kids had been high proile since birth and them staying in the country would only cause deaths.

Why do you think that Jon grows up as bastard instead of growing up as Rhaegar's son?

Honestly your argument is nonsense, we're inside Ned's head. Had he wanted to play the game of thrones (at that time) he would have simply  waited for Robert or taken Renly's advice.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, aeverett said:

And yes, Ned knew of Joffrey's temperament.  He'd had to put down Lady for it.  He'd witnessed some of it and Robert had told him that he'd run off to the Free Cities and become a sellsword if he didn't fear Joffrey on the Iron Throne.   Yes, Ned had a hard road head of him regardless of what he did, and his choice was understandable, but understandable and MORAL are not the same thing. 

No he didn't know as he himself tells to Robert he's exaggerating about Joffrey.

 

 

8 hours ago, aeverett said:

The moral choice would have been not to place 3 childrens' lives in danger and work to find a peaceful solution where Joffrey was denied the throne, but not his life or the lives of his siblings. 

That would have been the utopic choice, there was no way the children would have been safe after their secret was out and there was no way they would forever lost the throne without becoming a danger to the next in line.

There was no situation in which the children don't have to watch their back.

 

 

8 hours ago, aeverett said:

As for Tywin's feeling on Elia, you're right that w e can't know, but there is no evidence that he had anything against her, certainly nothing that would see him order her raped and murdered.

Fair enough.

 

 

8 hours ago, aeverett said:

And yes, from the Westerosi point of view, Tyrion did 'do wrong' in marrying Tysha, as did Tysha.   To you and I there was nothing improper, but Tywin needed to punish Tyrion, and Tysha, and having Tysha gangraped was his method of doing so.   It was a means to an end, getting Tyrion to stop humiliating House Lannister as much as possible.   

He didn't have to punish Tyrion, much less Tysha and certainly not the way he did.  Gangrape may seem to you as means to an end, just as Elia's fate.

 

 

8 hours ago, aeverett said:

That's not petty in Westeros, especially when your family has such a high position in the realm. 

That's certainly petty, his position in the Realm has nothing to do with that. 

 

 

8 hours ago, aeverett said:

 Same thing with  Masha Heddle, Chitaya's daughter, Tytos' mistress, etc.   From Tywin's point of view, that's survival, while holding onto power.   

I don't really know how that's survival.  In what way did those women threaten his House again??

He was simply sending a message... which is petty.

 

8 hours ago, aeverett said:

I'm not justifying Tywin's actions, only proving that Tywin saw them as imperative and gave them thought.  They were not petty or driven by instability.   If anything, they were sociopathic, driven by too much reason coupled with too little empathy.

Do you really believe that pettiness is  not driven by thought??

Edited by frenin

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On 2/15/2021 at 1:26 PM, CamiloRP said:

I don't think she actually stole, I mean, what for?

We are told directly that she stole. If you have a source from the books that says otherwise then I am open to hearing it.

On 2/15/2021 at 1:26 PM, CamiloRP said:

 

Tytos would've given her anything she wanted

True. But that is a pretty weird argument, right? People steal from people they love all the time. Children, partners and friends steal from people who love them and would likely willingly give them what they wanted if they asked. But it happens, frequently. I am not sure why this is a complicated issue for some?

Sometimes people will help themselves to the property of people who would willingly give it to them if they asked. If my housemate wanted to cook the steaks I have in the fridge and asked I'd be more than fine with it, I'd likely feel very differently if I was not asked and they were gone.

What we are told about the mistress is that she did as she pleased, she acted as if she ruled, a station she had no real right to in their society.  From the perception of Tywin, Kevan or most people in their very rigid society they would view it as theft.

 

On 2/15/2021 at 4:22 PM, saltedmalted said:

I don't think she did. 

If she was a thief running away with expensive jewels then she would have been executed. Most likely Tytos gave her everything she wanted.

I hate how condescending I end up sounding in these conversations, but how is this logical?

 

Do people not understand that someone can steal without putting on the cartoon mask on and creeping around?

 

On 2/15/2021 at 4:14 PM, sifth said:

It's been a while, but did Tytos mistress ever steal anything.

According to the books she did. If you can find a source that discredits Kevan's claim then I'm happy to hear it.

On 2/15/2021 at 4:14 PM, sifth said:

 

I know he gave her his former wife's jewels, but a gift is not theft.

Nope, that is not what was said. It is said she helped herself to those, not that she was given them.

Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels!

The fact that I have to repeat the same quote is pretty annoying.

On 2/15/2021 at 4:14 PM, sifth said:

 

I was always under the assumption that Tywin hated her for the "crime" of sleeping with his father.

Love to hear the evidence for this.

On 2/15/2021 at 4:14 PM, sifth said:

 

Granted, this turned out to be another way Tywin himself was a hypocrite in the end,

lol so you make up one conclusion not based on any evidence to back up another conclusion.

Tywin Derangement Syndrome seems to be a real thing. There are actually legitimate things to hate him for without the need to invent them.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

You don’t just fail to mention an order to someone unless you’re an idiot, particularly when you’re dealing with someone like The Mountain. 

That sounds pretty dumb. Tywin gave the order of who to kill. His order was not to 'kill everyone except these people'.

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7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I hate how condescending I end up sounding in these conversations, but how is this logical?

 

It is doubly funny that you sound condescending on top of being so wrong.

8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Do people not understand that someone can steal without putting on the cartoon mask on and creeping around?

 

We use different words for different reasons. Stop mixing them when it is convenient to do so.

 

Explain how receiving jewels from the previous lord counts as stealing.

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On 2/15/2021 at 3:12 PM, saltedmalted said:

He didn't say she stole them.

Yes he did. I've now repeated the quote three times in this discussion

Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels!

Why would you not fact check something like this? Why state something so certainly when you have no idea if its true?

 

Quote

Forgotten the guards? If she was so irrelevant why did he not simply banish her ?

It is there in the text. He was teaching Tyrion a lesson.

What Tywin did was abhorrent and beyond evil, but it was not aimed at Tysha, a homeless peasant, but his son Tyrion. He wanted to teach him that anyone could have her. That she was worthless, which in their society she tragically was.

Quote
 

Try to think for a minute instead of posting bizarre comments. It doesn't matter if jaime thinks Tywin Lannister's actions are justified or not. He knows what his reaction would be.

No he does not. Do you know how we know this? Because we are in Jaime's head. There is zero indication that he was lying to Tyrion when he said he did not know what Tywin would have done to her.

You are claiming that he would have known, but the evidence suggests that he did not.

Quote

A person stealing from the Lannisters would be considered a simple thief and be punished like one.

eh? She was punished as someone who ruled in the Lannisters name, helped herself to their property, granted favours in their name.

Not one person in the series says she was punished too harshly.

Quote

Tytos' mistress was punished in a specific way to humiliate her.

Yeah, most likely. She was a commoner who ruled in Tytos' name.

GRRM; I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

She did something that was just not accepted in their world and Tywin punished her for it. It was most definitely petty and done to humiliate her, but it was also a warning to all the other commoners who would think about challenging the status quo.

Quote

 

Tytos handed her everything

We are not told that. Perhaps he would have done if he was asked, but we are told she stole and helped herself to what she wanted. That people came to her for permission.

Quote

 

and once he was dead nobody would stop his son from doing whatever he wished to do to her.

True. But we also do not have a single source from the books that says she did not deserve her punishment. I'm okay with waiting while you try to find one.

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3 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

It is doubly funny that you sound condescending on top of being so wrong.

That is just an ad hom attack. Why not prove you are right and do the ad hom attack.

3 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

We use different words for different reasons. Stop mixing them when it is convenient to do so.

The words are pretty clear.

3 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

 

Explain how receiving jewels from the previous lord counts as stealing.

For the fourth time.

Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels!

The word I underlined, what does it say?

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

We are told directly that she stole. If you have a source from the books that says otherwise then I am open to hearing it.

True. But that is a pretty weird argument, right? People steal from people they love all the time. Children, partners and friends steal from people who love them and would likely willingly give them what they wanted if they asked. But it happens, frequently. I am not sure why this is a complicated issue for some?

Sometimes people will help themselves to the property of people who would willingly give it to them if they asked. If my housemate wanted to cook the steaks I have in the fridge and asked I'd be more than fine with it, I'd likely feel very differently if I was not asked and they were gone.

What we are told about the mistress is that she did as she pleased, she acted as if she ruled, a station she had no real right to in their society.  From the perception of Tywin, Kevan or most people in their very rigid society they would view it as theft.

Well, yes, that is precisely what I'm saying. The source that says she stole it would view her accepting the jewels from Tytos as stealing, so it doesn't matter wether she did it or not, she would be guilty in Tywin's eyes regardless.

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1 minute ago, CamiloRP said:

Well, yes, that is precisely what I'm saying. The source that says she stole it would view her accepting the jewels from Tytos as stealing, so it doesn't matter wether she did it or not, she would be guilty in Tywin's eyes regardless.

The source that says she stole also point blankly states she helped herself to them, not that she was given them.

Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels!

As far as we know she stole. Now maybe Tytos would have been okay with it, or maybe they were not even Tytos' to do with as he pleased.

The other reason she was punished is the ruling she did.

Within a year she was dismissing servants, ordering about his household knights, even speaking for his lordship when he was indisposed.

These are actions that Tytos may have approved of if he was present, but it speaks of how she did as she pleased regardless if Tytos was there or not and regardless if Tytos gave her the jewellery or not. The mistress and the Reynes and Tarbecks are two sides of the same coin when it comes to Tytos rule. People who would do as they pleased, without his permission, safe in the knowledge that he would forgive them for doing what they did, regardless of how this weakened House Lannister as an institution.

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13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The source that says she stole also point blankly states she helped herself to them, not that she was given them.

Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels!

As far as we know she stole. Now maybe Tytos would have been okay with it, or maybe they were not even Tytos' to do with as he pleased.

The other reason she was punished is the ruling she did.

Within a year she was dismissing servants, ordering about his household knights, even speaking for his lordship when he was indisposed.

These are actions that Tytos may have approved of if he was present, but it speaks of how she did as she pleased regardless if Tytos was there or not and regardless if Tytos gave her the jewellery or not. The mistress and the Reynes and Tarbecks are two sides of the same coin when it comes to Tytos rule. People who would do as they pleased, without his permission, safe in the knowledge that he would forgive them for doing what they did, regardless of how this weakened House Lannister as an institution.

Yes, but 'the source' would view Tytos giving them to her as her stealing them. I'm not arguing with you, I'm not saying she didn't steal them, all I'm saying is that I don't think Kevan thinking she stole them means she definitely did and that it doesn't matter either way.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

What Tywin did was abhorrent and beyond evil, but it was not aimed at Tysha, a homeless peasant

:blink:

You are doing a lot of mental gymnastics.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

You are claiming that he would have known, but the evidence suggests that he did not.

He doesn't relive his thoughts at all. Jaime can try to find excuses but he should have known his father's sense of justice is extremely brutal.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not one person in the series says she was punished too harshly.

Other than Kevan Lannister (and a few others) nobody has reason to think about it.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

But we also do not have a single source from the books that says she did not deserve her punishment. I'm okay with waiting while you try to find one.

We don't have a reliable source that says she deserved punishment. I am okay waiting while you try to find one.

59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

But we also do not have a single source from the books that says she did not deserve her punishment. I'm okay with waiting while you try to find one.

I have already done all the proving. You just keep turning and deflecting.

 

Kevan Lannister is the last person to trust when it comes to his father or his brother. The woman's punishment tells a completely different story.

 

Edited by saltedmalted

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10 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, but 'the source' would view Tytos giving them to her as her stealing them.

No it does not. Which source claims Tytos gave ownership of Jeyne Marbrand's jewels to his mistress?

You are confusing the clothes Tytos lavished on her with Jeyme Marbrand's jewels.

Cersei had been a year old when her grandfather died. The first thing her father had done on his ascension was to expel his own father's grasping, lowborn mistress from Casterly Rock. The silks and velvets Lord Tytos had lavished on her and the jewelry she had taken for herself

Regarding the jewellery, specifically Jeyne's jewellery, there is no source stating Tytos gave them to her.

 

10 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

I'm not arguing with you, I'm not saying she didn't steal them, all I'm saying is that I don't think Kevan thinking she stole them means she definitely did and that it doesn't matter either way.

If there is another source discrediting the claims of Kevan and Cersei then I'm happy to hear it.

 

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9 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

 

:blink:

You are doing a lot of mental gymnastics.

I'm the one who is doing mental gymnastics? You just deleted a post claiming that stealing did not make someone a thief. What was going through your head when you typed that?

9 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:
 

He doesn't relive his thoughts at all. Jaime can try to find excuses but he should have known his father's sense of justice is extremely brutal.

So there are two things here that you seem unwilling to take into consideration

  • Moral relativism, in their world Tywin is not seen as being extremely brutal. Though he can be, that does not mean his every action is such
  • Jaimie is Tywin's son. He naturally is going to have a more favorable opinion than you do on him, which will mean not assuming the very worst.

What Tywin did was abhorrent. So the idea that Jaime should have assumed that was going to happen makes little sense.

9 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:
 

Other than Kevan Lannister (and a few others) nobody has reason to think about it.

And? You do realize anyone could think about it if GRRM wanted them to, right?

In their world what happened to the mistress is not seen as some awful crime. If you want to argue that it should, then you will have no argument from me, most of the shit that the nobles do in that society are intolerable.

9 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

We don't have a reliable source that says she deserved punishment. I am okay waiting while you try to find one.

I've already provided two. You have provided zero and you are the one making the claims. The onus is on you my friend. I've already made my case and backed it up with quotes from the text.

9 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:
 

I have already done all the proving.

lol no you have not.

9 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

 

You just keep turning and deflecting.

What is your understanding of the word deflecting because I don't think you are using it right.

List all the things you think I have deflected on and I will gladly re-answer them again. I am happy to wait.

9 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

 

Kevan Lannister is the last person to trust when it comes to his father or his brother. The woman's punishment tells a completely different story.

If you have a better source I'd love to hear it. But you can't just discredit a source because you don't like what they say.

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30 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No it does not. Which source claims Tytos gave ownership of Jeyne Marbrand's jewels to his mistress?

No source, I didn't say that, all I said is that, regardless if she was given the jewels or if she stole them, Kevan would view it as theft. Not that she didn't steal them, she might have, I just don't think Kevan is a reliable source on it, nor are Cersei nor Tywin.

 

Quote

You are confusing the clothes Tytos lavished on her with Jeyme Marbrand's jewels.

No, I'm not.

 

Quote

Cersei had been a year old when her grandfather died. The first thing her father had done on his ascension was to expel his own father's grasping, lowborn mistress from Casterly Rock. The silks and velvets Lord Tytos had lavished on her and the jewelry she had taken for herself

Regarding the jewellery, specifically Jeyne's jewellery, there is no source stating Tytos gave them to her.

I never claimed he did.

 

Quote

If there is another source discrediting the claims of Kevan and Cersei then I'm happy to hear it.

I never claimed that it was, just that the source for her stealing the jewels is not reliable. If our only window into Lysa's and Littlefinger's relationship was a Lysa POV, the text would state that they love each other, but Lysa isn't a reliable source on it. Similarly, our only sources about what happened are people who would view Tytos giving jewelry to his mistress as she stealing them, so we can't be sure wether she stole them or not. Could she have? absolutely. But there's also a fair chance that she didn't. 

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That sounds pretty dumb. Tywin gave the order of who to kill. His order was not to 'kill everyone except these people'.

So you admit that Tywin ordered Elia’s murder. If he didn’t order “kill everyone except these people”, then he ordered Elia’s murder despite the potential political fallout. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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5 hours ago, frenin said:

You're being willingly preposterous.

Jon had other options but exile, that's why he is raised as Ned's bastard.  Cersei kids had been high proile since birth and them staying in the country would only cause deaths.

Why do you think that Jon grows up as bastard instead of growing up as Rhaegar's son?

Honestly your argument is nonsense, we're inside Ned's head. Had he wanted to play the game of thrones (at that time) he would have simply  waited for Robert or taken Renly's advice.

 

 

 

No he didn't know as he himself tells to Robert he's exaggerating about Joffrey.

 

 

That would have been the utopic choice, there was no way the children would have been safe after their secret was out and there was no way they would forever lost the throne without becoming a danger to the next in line.

There was no situation in which the children don't have to watch their back.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

 

He didn't have to punish Tyrion, much less Tysha and certainly not the way he did.  Gangrape may seem to you as means to an end, just as Elia's fate.

 

 

That's certainly petty, his position in the Realm has nothing to do with that. 

 

 

I don't really know how that's survival.  In what way did those women threaten his House again??

He was simply sending a message... which is petty.

 

Do you really believe that pettiness is  not driven by thought??

Ned was playing the game of thrones, even if it wasn't in his uppermost thoughts at the time he was doing it.  He was trying to right the succession and protect his BFF's legacy.  However, doing that required he put 3 children's lives in serious danger.   His duty and his place in the game was in conflict with his morality.   So he tried to thread the needle, to get Cersei to solve his problem for him by taking the children far away.   He told Cersei to run because it would make his life easier, allow him to secure his BFF's throne and disempower people he viewed as dishonorable.   That's the game of thrones.  The truly moral choice would have been not to threaten the lives of three children, to give up the game, grab his daughters and household staff, and head back to Winterfell.   I never said Ned's choices were easy or that they weren't necessary, only that they weren't based in morality and that they were hypocritical.    

And Ned's telling Robert he was exaggerating was meant to calm his friend's anxiety about a looming threat.  To put it in a modern context, he was patting Robert on the head and saying 'There, there, everything will work out.   You can't know the future.  Joffrey's still a boy'.   Ned wanted to believe this because the alternative was to admit that the heir to the throne was a dangerous psycho, at that point he believed a trueborn dangerous psycho, but a psycho none the less. 

And no, finding a moral solution wouldn't have been utopic.  If he'd failed to warn Cersei that he knew, grabbed his household, and headed to Stannis, he could have brokered for the lives of Cersei's kids.  Tywin is a realist.  When confronted with all the other kingdoms united against Joffrey, he'd sue for peace to protect his house.  When faced with the potential annihilation of that house he'd cut his losses.  His only real demand would be Jaime being exiled rather than killed.  Jaime could marry and father heirs to Casterly Rock just as well in Lys as he could in Westeros, and Tywin would have a new generation to sculpt into the Lannisters he'd wanted Jaime and Cersei to be.   He'd insist on keeping Jaime safe because in his eyes, Jaime was his heir and without heirs, House Lannister would die off anyway.  With Jaime executed there would be no reason not to go down fighting, burning half of Westeros in his wake before House Lannister died off.  Ned could have gone this route, but that was the hard path.  Threatening Cersei was easier.  

Jon would have been just as safe in Ibben, the Summer Isles, or the Free Cities, but Ned wanted the option of keeping his home and his family.  He betrayed Robert by protecting Jon, put Robert's throne at risk.  Pretending that Jon was his own bastard wouldn't protect Jon from shit Robert ever found out the truth, any more than Cersei's kids would be protected.   Yet a hard life of exile is good enough for Cersei Lannister and her offspring, but not good enough for Ned Stark and his nephew.   That's hypocrisy and game of thrones playing.  

As for Tyrion and Tysha.  Yes, Tywin did need to punish Tyrion and Tysha, and in his eyes, gangrape was the right way to get his point across.   It's twisted, true, but in the brutal, morally messed up power politics of Westeros, Tywin saw it as necessary to retain his family's reputation, power, and survival.  

The definition of petty requires small-mindedness or spitefulness, and thus is antithetical to a well thought out strategy, devoid of deeper emotion.    Tywin had Tysha gangraped because he believed it would hurt Tyrion enough to force him to change his ways.   Tysha had reached beyond her grasp in knowingly marrying a Lannister.  To fail to punish Tyrion was to invite mockery of their house and that mockery could lead to a loss of position in the realm.  By using such brutal means of punishing his own blood, he was reinforcing his reputation and thus the implicit threat in  defying him, which is what much of his power in the realm is based on.   That's not petty.  Evil, yes, but not petty.

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