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Angel Eyes

Why did Jaime lie about Tysha?

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So you admit that Tywin ordered Elia’s murder. If he didn’t order “kill everyone except these people”, then he ordered Elia’s murder despite the potential political fallout. 

No, he didn't pay enough attention to his orders regarding Elia.   He was hyper-focused on killing Rhaegar's children to prevent any threats to the future children of Robert and Cersei that he overlooked Elia, likely ordering her brought to him or Robert.  He forgot to add 'alive'.   It was an oversight he paid for in loosing a potential bargaining chip with the Dornish.  

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5 minutes ago, aeverett said:

No, he didn't pay enough attention to his orders regarding Elia.   He was hyper-focused on killing Rhaegar's children to prevent any threats to the future children of Robert and Cersei that he overlooked Elia, likely ordering her brought to him or Robert.  He forgot to add 'alive'.   It was an oversight he paid for in loosing a potential bargaining chip with the Dornish.  

You don’t “forget” keeping someone alive for something like that. It would be unlike Tywin, a rather meticulous man, to forget something like that. And with The Mountain, you don’t just “forget” to give him an order unless you want him to hurt someone, because he’ll rape or murder anyone who’s unfortunate to cross paths with him unless told otherwise. You need to give him an order to keep him on a leash.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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24 minutes ago, aeverett said:

As for Tyrion and Tysha.  Yes, Tywin did need to punish Tyrion and Tysha, and in his eyes, gangrape was the right way to get his point across.   It's twisted, true, but in the brutal, morally messed up power politics of Westeros, Tywin saw it as necessary to retain his family's reputation, power, and survival.  

The definition of petty requires small-mindedness or spitefulness, and thus is antithetical to a well thought out strategy, devoid of deeper emotion.    Tywin had Tysha gangraped because he believed it would hurt Tyrion enough to force him to change his ways.   Tysha had reached beyond her grasp in knowingly marrying a Lannister.  To fail to punish Tyrion was to invite mockery of their house and that mockery could lead to a loss of position in the realm.  By using such brutal means of punishing his own blood, he was reinforcing his reputation and thus the implicit threat in  defying him, which is what much of his power in the realm is based on.   That's not petty.  Evil, yes, but not petty.

Well it didn't work, since Tyrion embarrassed their house even more by whoring. And Tywin shouldn't be one to judge about marrying below one's station or for advantage, since he married his cousin Joanna with no political gain and allowed his brother Kevan to marry the daughter of a lowly knight, a knight whose house had already been disgraced at least once since they were downgraded from lords to knights.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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41 minutes ago, aeverett said:

Ned was playing the game of thrones, even if it wasn't in his uppermost thoughts at the time he was doing it.  He was trying to right the succession and protect his BFF's legacy.  However, doing that required he put 3 children's lives in serious danger.   His duty and his place in the game was in conflict with his morality.   

Nope, Ned was trying to unravel a conspiracy against Robert and against his family and so far he could tell, the twincest was a central and essential part in said plot.

The children were already in serious danger, Ned was trying to get them out of Westeros before things reach the no retutn point.

 

47 minutes ago, aeverett said:

 So he tried to thread the needle, to get Cersei to solve his problem for him by taking the children far away.   He told Cersei to run because it would make his life easier, allow him to secure his BFF's throne and disempower people he viewed as dishonorable.   That's the game of thrones. 

He told Cersei to run because it was either that or Rbert killing her them, that's not the game of thrones. That's literally mercy.

And this is simply absurd to discuss anyway, we're on Ned's head. 

 

 

49 minutes ago, aeverett said:

The truly moral choice would have been not to threaten the lives of three children, to give up the game, grab his daughters and household staff, and head back to Winterfell.

The truly moral choice for you Kant. I very much doubt that three children are worth the future civil war that they was guaranteed over Robert's succession. Not that children means avoid your responsibilities.

 

56 minutes ago, aeverett said:

 I never said Ned's choices were easy or that they weren't necessary, only that they weren't based in morality and that they were hypocritical.    

They were entirely based on morality (btw do you know that your morality and Ned's may differ right?) and they certainly not were hypocritical. 

Your comparison with Jon has already been refuted several times.

 

57 minutes ago, aeverett said:

And Ned's telling Robert he was exaggerating was meant to calm his friend's anxiety about a looming threat.  To put it in a modern context, he was patting Robert on the head and saying 'There, there, everything will work out.   You can't know the future.  Joffrey's still a boy'.   Ned wanted to believe this because the alternative was to admit that the heir to the throne was a dangerous psycho, at that point he believed a trueborn dangerous psycho, but a psycho none the less. 

I would buy your words if we weren't inside his head and he never thinks of Joffrey as Hannibal in the making, nor we see anything that points he's deluding himself.

 

 

59 minutes ago, aeverett said:

If he'd failed to warn Cersei that he knew, grabbed his household, and headed to Stannis, he could have brokered for the lives of Cersei's kids. 

No, he could not as the children would always be a threat to Stannis's claim. You're quick to explain how "this world works" to write off Tywin's actions yet you don't seem to realize that you do not leave people with a claim to throne (however dubious) in your turf. Those kids would never never up to a happy ending until they wrestled their father's throne with their uncle(s). Their options were always victory, death, exile and silent sisters... Well, the boys could always have been castrated.

 

 

1 hour ago, aeverett said:

Jon would have been just as safe in Ibben, the Summer Isles, or the Free Cities, but Ned wanted the option of keeping his home and his family.  He betrayed Robert by protecting Jon, put Robert's throne at risk.  Pretending that Jon was his own bastard wouldn't protect Jon from shit Robert ever found out the truth, any more than Cersei's kids would be protected.   Yet a hard life of exile is good enough for Cersei Lannister and her offspring, but not good enough for Ned Stark and his nephew.   That's hypocrisy and game of thrones playing.  

That's stupid. Ned could have been hidden, Cersei's couldn't. Jon was a newborn baby, Cersei's kids weren't.

The option that existed for Jon were no longer available for Cersei's kids. Had Jon been 13,8,11 and his existence as Rhaegar's son been widely known and Ned decided to keep him instead of exiling him... Then you should have a tiny point alas, the situations are vastly differents.

 

1 hour ago, aeverett said:

As for Tyrion and Tysha.  Yes, Tywin did need to punish Tyrion and Tysha, and in his eyes, gangrape was the right way to get his point across.   It's twisted, true, but in the brutal, morally messed up power politics of Westeros, Tywin saw it as necessary to retain his family's reputation, power, and survival.  

What reputation?? What power?? What survival?? The marriage wasn't even a known event, Afaik only Tywin and his two sons display any knowledge of the event.

The marriage was  barely legal, as both were minors at the time, they had no witnesses but a drunk septon who officiated it and only the married couple and two other persons knew about it.

 

 

1 hour ago, aeverett said:

The definition of petty requires small-mindedness or spitefulness, and thus is antithetical to a well thought out strategy, devoid of deeper emotion. 

Neither of them are well thought strategies devoided of deeper emotions and all of those actions are to spite at someone, likely Tyrion.

 

 

1 hour ago, aeverett said:

To fail to punish Tyrion was to invite mockery of their house and that mockery could lead to a loss of position in the realm.

The marriage was secret and how it could lead to a loss of position inn the Realm exactly??

Would Tywin suddenly stop to be the King's father in law or the most powerful lord in the Realm??

The rest is just wanking.

 

 

Quote

No, he didn't pay enough attention to his orders regarding Elia.   He was hyper-focused on killing Rhaegar's children to prevent any threats to the future children of Robert and Cersei that he overlooked Elia, likely ordering her brought to him or Robert.  He forgot to add 'alive'.   It was an oversight he paid for in loosing a potential bargaining chip with the Dornish.  

Come on now, Tywin can do and think about more than two things at the same time. It's simply absurd to believe that he told Gregor to bring her but forgot to tell him that he should keep her alive. In fact the very idea that he ordered Elia to be brought to him or Robert already means that she is to be kept alive.

If you want to defend hi, just go by his words and say that he didn't mention Elia at all.

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14 minutes ago, frenin said:

Come on now, Tywin can do and think about more than two things at the same time. It's simply absurd to believe that he told Gregor to bring her but forgot to tell him that he should keep her alive. In fact the very idea that he ordered Elia to be brought to him or Robert already means that she is to be kept alive.

If you want to defend hi, just go by his words and say that he didn't mention Elia at all.

And let's not forget the statement he makes to Tyrion about fault lying with a commander.

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4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And let's not forget the statement he makes to Tyrion about fault lying with a commander.

That's probably my favorite Tywin quote.

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@aeverett

Why are you comparing Jon with Cersei's children? 

Ned did not try to raise Jon as claimant. He kept him hidden right from the beginning.

Cersei did the opposite, conspiring to put her bastards on the throne and still not leaving when given the chance to save her children.

 

Had Robert decided to put Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen to death the fault would not be Ned's.

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12 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

 

Had Robert decided to put Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen to death the fault would not be Ned's.

He'd still feel shitty about it though.

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23 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

@aeverett

Why are you comparing Jon with Cersei's children? 

Ned did not try to raise Jon as claimant. He kept him hidden right from the beginning.

Cersei did the opposite, conspiring to put her bastards on the throne and still not leaving when given the chance to save her children.

 

Had Robert decided to put Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen to death the fault would not be Ned's.

If Ned had been the one to reveal the truth to Robert, knowing Robert's temper, then yes it would have been Ned's fault.   To say other wise removes Robert's agency.  Once told, Robert would have a choice to make.  Ned knows his BFF well enough to know what choice he'd make.  So if things had gone down where Robert had lived and been told BY NED, then yes, Ned would be responsible.  

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On 2/17/2021 at 5:19 PM, Angel Eyes said:

And let's not forget the statement he makes to Tyrion about fault lying with a commander.

I never said Tywin wasn't culpable for the Mountain raping and killing Elia, only that I believe he didn't order it.   I'm 100% certain he ordered Rhaenys and baby Aegon's deaths.  That was totally in keeping with Tywin.  Indeed, I'm also of the opinion that it was Tywin who sent assassins after Viserys and Dany after they left the House with the Red Door, not Robert, as Jon Arryn had him on a leash when it came to killing children during those years.  

That said, I think we've gone around and around on this.  We both see the situation differently.  We should just agree to disagree.  

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28 minutes ago, aeverett said:

If Ned had been the one to reveal the truth to Robert, knowing Robert's temper, then yes it would have been Ned's fault.

He gave Cersei the option of fleeing to safety. The fault is Cersei's.

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On 2/19/2021 at 1:55 AM, aeverett said:

I never said Tywin wasn't culpable for the Mountain raping and killing Elia, only that I believe he didn't order it.   I'm 100% certain he ordered Rhaenys and baby Aegon's deaths.  That was totally in keeping with Tywin.  Indeed, I'm also of the opinion that it was Tywin who sent assassins after Viserys and Dany after they left the House with the Red Door, not Robert, as Jon Arryn had him on a leash when it came to killing children during those years.  

That said, I think we've gone around and around on this.  We both see the situation differently.  We should just agree to disagree.  

Still, you gotta keep a leash on Gregor, give him precise instructions, otherwise he'll rape and or murder unless told not to (just ask Layna). I think it's uncharacteristic of Tywin, a rather meticulous man, to just "fail" to give an order to someone without thinking through the possible political implications.

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5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Still, you gotta keep a leash on Gregor, give him precise instructions, otherwise he'll rape and or murder unless told not to (just ask Layna). I think it's uncharacteristic of Tywin, a rather meticulous man, to just "fail" to give an order to someone without thinking through the possible political implications.

Yes, Tywin is meticulous, but I believe he fail in being precise enough, that it was an oversight rather than intentional.   But he learned.  He was far more precise come the Wot5K. 

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