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13 minutes ago, Xanderen said:

Oh, totally. I feel like HBO has some fences to mend after what they did to Loras though...

Yeah, definitely, but George killed all the Targaryen-associated queer characters in the Dance era - Joffrey Lonmouth is killed by Harwin Strong, Laenor Velaryon is murdered by his own favorite, Qarl Correy, and Qarl Correy disappears without a trace, indicating he died, too.

Although, unlike with GoT, none of those characters are explicitly punished/murdered for being gay.

But I don't think we are going to get many happy endings for the queer folks in HotD.

And if we count Laena Velaryon and Rhaenyra Targaryen as queer characters, too - there are hints that they may have had an affair while Laena was married to Daemon - then both of them don't get a happy ending, either.

The queer guys who seem to survive the time frame covered by the show are Racallio Ryndoon - but he won't get that much screentime one assumes - and then there are Sabitha Vypren Frey and Black Aly Blackwood. Jeyne Arryn, too, who could have a considerable role in the story, but she would die during the Regency era if they cover that in the show. If not, then she could work as the one Westerosi queer character who had a good and self-determined life (Sabitha and Aly live in heterosexual marriages).

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How many secondary characters do we think will be included? For instance, Addam and Alyn Velaryon should definitely be included + Nettles, Ulf and Hugh. What about the Caltrops lot - I would love to see Jon Roxton kill Hugh the Hammer while using that epic line...

I guess it depends on where season 1 end: Rhaenyra's death or Aegon 2's poisoning? If the former, then season 2 could focus on Aegon 2 initially and then on Aegon 3's regency. Or they may drag out all of Aegon 2 for season 2, and then do Aegon 3 for the following season. 

I wish they'd started off with Jaehaerys and Alysanne! I love that entire section in the book. But I guess there wasn't enough blood and battle there! 

 

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And if we count Laena Velaryon and Rhaenyra Targaryen as queer characters, too - there are hints that they may have had an affair while Laena was married to Daemon - then both of them don't get a happy ending, either.

I hope they don't make them lovers. We've never seen a close female friendship on the show, and I don't count Dany and MIssy because their relationship was unequal (Missy was an employee). Leana and Rhaenyra being friends who deeply care for one another in friendship and sisterhood would be groundbreaking on its own. 

Rhaenyra marrying Daemon can also be explained partly by their grief of losing Laena drawing them together. It wouldn't be the only reason of course, but it could be an aspect explored on the show. 

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I'm with you, Sotan. There is no "hint" at all that there's a relationship, and I'm baffled by the idea that their being dear friends meant they were lovers. This is not like Rhaena Targaryen and her string of favorites whose unusual closeness to her are repeatedly pointed out. If GRRM intended us to take an affair out of it, he would have provided some context to suggest it.

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5 minutes ago, Ran said:

I'm with you, Sotan. There is no "hint" at all that there's a relationship, and I'm baffled by the idea that their being dear friends meant they were lovers. This is not like Rhaena Targaryen and her string of favorites whose unusual closeness to her are repeatedly pointed out. If GRRM intended us to take an affair out of it, he would have provided some context to suggest it.

Now Rhaena and her favorites I do remember! LOL. Who can forget that trifling Elissa Farman? Poor Rhaena had the worst luck. 

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If somebody is 'more than fond' of another party in a friendship scenario then a romantic/sexual relationship is on the table. It is not confirmed or anything, nor is there a reason to assume that either woman was only into women.

Even Queen Rhaena had a proper husband in her brother Aegon. She even produced two children, doing her dynastic duty. Rhaenyra definitely preferred the company of men ... but whether Laena Velaryon cared for Daemon Targaryen or men in general is unclear. She definitely didn't care about become the queen of Viserys I ... which is certainly interesting.

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Whilst Princess Rhaenyra misliked her stepmother, Queen Alicent, she became fond and more than fond of her good-sister Lady Laena. With Driftmark and Dragonstone so close, Daemon and Laena oft visited with the princess, and her with them. Many a time they flew together on their dragons, and the princess’s she-dragon Syrax produced several clutches of eggs. In 118 AC, with the blessing of King Viserys, Rhaenyra announced the betrothal of her two eldest sons to the daughters of Prince Daemon and Lady Laena. Jacaerys was four and Lucerys three, the girls two. And in 119 AC, when Laena found she was with child again, Rhaenyra flew to Driftmark to attend her during the birth.

If you check the text of FaB the phrase 'more than fond' is used thrice in the book - in the example given above, then to describe Rhaena's feelings for Androw Farman (in the text of TSoD before it became clear she was actually into Elissa) and then to describe the relationship between Daemon and Nettles.

In all three instances the point is to describe something more than a friendship, something that can/might be a romantic/sexual relationship or at least indicate that the party who is fond would like the relationship to be more than friendship.

Also, this whole thing about Syrax producing eggs there multiple times can also be read as the dragons mating reflecting a mating on the part of their riders.

Vice versa, we do have George implying that Rhaegar wasn't in love with Elia Martell when he had Barristan Selmy say that Rhaegar was 'fond' of his wife.

But, to be sure - I'm not saying Rhaenyra and Laena must have been in a romantic/sexual relationship - or that the show has to reflect that idea. I just point out that the possibility clearly is on the table.

That Ran doesn't really see it isn't that much of a surprise. He even had problems seeing that the second Daemon Blackfyre was hitting on Dunk back in TMK ;-).

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Lord Varys, I hear you; I just hope they don't go down that road. Rhaenyra's sex life is salacious enough, it would make her a much more well rounded and more interesting character if she had a close platonic friendship with another woman. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If somebody is 'more than fond' of another party in a friendship scenario then a romantic/sexual relationship is on the table. It is not confirmed or anything, nor is there a reason to assume that either woman was only into women.

Even Queen Rhaena had a proper husband in her brother Aegon. She even produced two children, doing her dynastic duty. Rhaenyra definitely preferred the company of men ... but whether Laena Velaryon cared for Daemon Targaryen or men in general is unclear. She definitely didn't care about become the queen of Viserys I ... which is certainly interesting.

If you check the text of FaB the phrase 'more than fond' is used thrice in the book - in the example given above, then to describe Rhaena's feelings for Androw Farman (in the text of TSoD before it became clear she was actually into Elissa) and then to describe the relationship between Daemon and Nettles.

In all three instances the point is to describe something more than a friendship, something that can/might be a romantic/sexual relationship or at least indicate that the party who is fond would like the relationship to be more than friendship.

Also, this whole thing about Syrax producing eggs there multiple times can also be read as the dragons mating reflecting a mating on the part of their riders.

Vice versa, we do have George implying that Rhaegar wasn't in love with Elia Martell when he had Barristan Selmy say that Rhaegar was 'fond' of his wife.

But, to be sure - I'm not saying Rhaenyra and Laena must have been in a romantic/sexual relationship - or that the show has to reflect that idea. I just point out that the possibility clearly is on the table.

That Ran doesn't really see it isn't that much of a surprise. He even had problems seeing that the second Daemon Blackfyre was hitting on Dunk back in TMK ;-).

Why not add then proper salacious rumor, and not create new based on flimsy evidence, hell we can even add her romance with appetizers.

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Thereafter, though he joined his wife for important court events where his presence was expected, Ser Laenor spent most of his days apart from the princess. Septon Eustace says they shared a bed no more than a dozen times. Mushroom concurs, but adds that Qarl Correy oft shared that bed as well; it aroused the princess to watch the men disporting with one another, he tells us, and from time to time the two would include her in their pleasures. Yet Mushroom contradicts himself, for elsewhere in his Testimony he claims that the princess would leave her husband with his lover on such nights, and seek her own solace in the arms of Harwin Strong.

 

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This isn't Dragonriders of Pern. Dragons that are often together will have opportunities to mate. There is no evidence that dragons get randy because their riders are involved, and indeed I rather doubt George would do it specifically  because it's such a famous McCafferey trope.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She definitely didn't care about become the queen of Viserys I ... which is certainly interesting

I'm always took that to mean that she was a tomboy and free spirit (like Arya), and just wasn't bothered by such things...

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1 hour ago, Sotan said:

Lord Varys, I hear you; I just hope they don't go down that road. Rhaenyra's sex life is salacious enough, it would make her a much more well rounded and more interesting character if she had a close platonic friendship with another woman. 

The whole point of Rhaenyra's character is that she has a salacious sex life - she is a spoiled and pampered princess. The Realm's Delight. She fucks whoever she wants, with no regard how that makes her look or her family look. Like a man in her position would do. Like her dear uncle did when he raped deflowered all those maidens back in the day.

But to be sure - if Rhaenyra and Laena were also fuck buddies it doesn't change that they were also friends. Because that's also part of whatever relationship they had. And, again, I'd have no problems with that particular sex thing not making it into the show. Just as I also don't want to see Daemon training Rhaenyra in a ridiculous caricature of Cruel Intentions or Dangerous Liaisons. All I'm saying is that one way to read the source material is that Laena and Rhaenyra were having an affair.

I get it that it might be more interesting that they were just friends - although I daresay that Laena Velaryon is so insignificant a character that the only reason she might make into the show if there are some salacious scenes for her. Aside from that the woman is just an extra with silver-gold ringlets and a really big dragon.

Where the show is going to give us somewhat of a friendship between women seems to be with Rhaenyra and Rhaenys (if the character description we got are accurate) - with the latter being a kind of supporting mother figure for her.

Also, they are certainly free to scrap all the Criston Cole, Harwin Strong and the orgies with Correy and Laenor and whatnot in the show ... and make Rhaenyra a dutiful wife to her husband who only happened to have a female lover in Laena.

How salacious Rhaenyra's sex life in the show will be we don't know. They will have to pick and choose since quite a few stories are mutually exclusive, not to mention that they are free to streamline things or invent their own (sub-)plots.

Rhaenyra as a more hypersexual person combined with her role as a pretty good and protective mother could make her into an interesting character.

54 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Why not add then proper salacious rumor, and not create new based on flimsy evidence, hell we can even add her romance with appetizers.

Because not everything in FaB has to read like a porn written by Mushroom? We also don't have any details about what Black Aly and Sabitha did when sharing a tent. Nor what exactly Queen Rhaena did with all her favorites, Elissa included. Perhaps their relationship remained platonic the entire time? We don't know. But the implictation is that Rhaena was gay ... just as the implication is that Rhaenyra and Laena may have had a thing.

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

This isn't Dragonriders of Pern. Dragons that are often together will have opportunities to mate. There is no evidence that dragons get randy because their riders are involved, and indeed I rather doubt George would do it specifically  because it's such a famous McCafferey trope.

That wasn't the main point. Rather a very weak one in the entire argument... It was a point made from from symbolism, not the cornerstone of the argument.

Although I'd add that George definitely and quite explicitly has the dragons mirror the emotions of their riders. That's spelled out when the Blacks and Greens first form, and we have that with Dreamfyre mirroring Rhaena's anger and fear, we have Vhagar and Caraxes being best buddies when Laena rode Vhagar ... and we have the complete reverse when Aemond claims Vhagar and the two dragons eventually kill each other because of their riders.

9 minutes ago, Xanderen said:

I'm always took that to mean that she was a tomboy and free spirit (like Arya), and just wasn't bothered by such things...

Laena Velaryon wasn't a tomboy. She was a very beautiful and feminine woman, it seems (if her long ringlets are any indication), although one preferring dragonriding to the company of men - King Viserys I and her Braavosi betrothed included. And as I said - on her part the entire Daemon marriage was something she had no hand in. Daemon allegedly fell in love with her - or convinced her dad to give him her hand (or both) - but how she felt about any of that is completely unclear. But chances are pretty good there that she just did her duty, like any good daughter would do.

Granted, the fact that Laena was only twelve years old when Viserys I looked for a new queen may have played a role in her disinterest at that time ... but her being a royal lady of the highest birth it is noteworthy that she apparently didn't bother that the king had spurned her. Her role was to make a good match, and becoming queen was the best match she could hope for. Her not being attracted all that much to men could also help explain that.

We do remember Sansa's reaction when it looked like that her royal match would be cancelled, no? And we do know that her parents were pissed when Viserys I preferred the daughter of his Hand to the blood of the dragon. We should also expect that as young a daughter as Laena would actually feel the same anger as her parents did over this incident. She wouldn't be old enough to form her own informed opinion.

That she still didn't seem to care can thus seen as somewhat significant.

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Again, the author didn't bother to have any source so much as hint at such a relationship, despite having sources talk about all sorts of relationships Rhaenyra is rumored to have had. So I'd say it's not on the table unless the author at some point decides to put it there, which I wouldn't expect him to do unless he goes back and edits books he has already published.

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Again, the author didn't bother to have any source so much as hint at such a relationship, despite having sources talk about all sorts of relationships Rhaenyra is rumored to have had. So I'd say it's not on the table unless the author at some point decides to put it there, which I wouldn't expect him to do unless he goes back and edits books he has already published.

The author does hint at such relationship as I laid out. You don't have to like it, but it is there. It isn't a very explicit hint. It is vague, open to interpretation ... but the possibility that Rhaenyra Targaryen was actually in love with Laena Velaryon is on the table.

We don't know for sure ... but we don't know a lot of things for sure in FaB. We have no clue who murdered the Strongs, who (if any) was behind Laenor's murder, whether Rhaena and Androw ever had sex (much less Rhaena and Elissa or Rhaena and any of her favorites), and a lot of other things. But we do have certain clues ... just as we do have one clue in the case of Rhaenyra and Laena. It is enough to realize that the phrase 'more than fond' is used to describe deeper relations/affections that go beyond mere friendship in more than one occasion.

It is not our place to demand more clues than we are given. And I'm not saying that this definitive - no homosexual orientation/relationship in FaB is definitive or confirmed, not even Laenor Velaryon and Joffrey Lonmouth - I'm just saying that a certain clue is there. And it is enough so that Rhaenyra and Laena can be lovers in the show if the writers will it so. It wouldn't constitute a diversion from the source material but fit with a certain interpretation of the text.

And in general - George clearly follows the patriarchal pattern with FaB - and ASoIaF in general - that homosexual relations among women are pretty much irrelevant. Nobody cares about those unless they really interfere with a woman's relationship with her husband. What Cersei does with her bedmaids or Dany with her handmaids doesn't interest anyone in the wider world. It might, if Dany or Cersei were to treat a female companion as their spouse or official paramour (which was the problem with Rhaena Targaryen's favorites - her mother was bothered by the fact that she showed them too much favor).

And with Elissa the problem her brother Franklyn has isn't that she fucks Rhaena (which, if they were in love, she most likely did while they were at Fair Isle) but rather that this behavior interferes with Elissa's role as noblewoman. She has to marry and produce children. She isn't supposed to hang out and waste her life with a woman like those other misfits do. Also, with Rhaena, George made the very deliberate choice to have the rumors surrounding her person revolve around affairs she had with men while she was flying around with her dragon in her youth.

In that sense it is hardly surprising that even Mushroom doesn't focus greatly on the juicy stuff Jeyne Arryn or Sabitha Frey do with their lovers ... but rather on the affairs women have with men. It is actually rather noteworthy that the dwarf apparently invents Jeyne having a lot of sex with many men, including Jace, whereas Eustace is the guy repeating the rumor about Jeyne being a lesbian.

Even a guy like Mushroom is a character with an agenda who may not be inclined to repeat or invent salacious rumors of any kind. Especially not such who

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because not everything in FaB has to read like a porn written by Mushroom? We also don't have any details about what Black Aly and Sabitha did when sharing a tent. Nor what exactly Queen Rhaena did with all her favorites, Elissa included. Perhaps their relationship remained platonic the entire time? We don't know. But the implictation is that Rhaena was gay ... just as the implication is that Rhaenyra and Laena may have had a thing.

Nah it has to feel like porn written by "Lord Varys", at least Mushroom has some credence - actually being there. We already have allegations or evidence of Rhaenyra being with Daemon, Cole, Harwin, Laenor, Quarl - do we need to add Laena - why? To fit  people's threesome fanfiction of dubious quality with Daemon - like some artists produce:

https://www.deviantart.com/chillyravenart/art/Daemon-x-Laena-x-Rhaenyra-858290077

https://naomimakesart.tumblr.com/post/625004137803857920/for-the-love-of-the-queen-daemon-and-laena

I'd rather have nuanced characters with complex motivations and not caricatures, Martin represents good and bad sides in Asoiaf , why can't we have same quality in F&B.

 

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8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Nah it has to feel like porn written by "Lord Varys", at least Mushroom has some credence - actually being there. We already have allegations or evidence of Rhaenyra being with Daemon, Cole, Harwin, Laenor, Quarl - do we need to add Laena - why? To fit  people's threesome fanfiction of dubious quality with Daemon - like some artists produce:

https://www.deviantart.com/chillyravenart/art/Daemon-x-Laena-x-Rhaenyra-858290077

https://naomimakesart.tumblr.com/post/625004137803857920/for-the-love-of-the-queen-daemon-and-laena

I'd rather have nuanced characters with complex motivations and not caricatures, Martin represents good and bad sides in Asoiaf , why can't we have same quality in F&B.

Guys, you are arguing against George there, not me. You have your issues with the interpretation of 'growing more than fond' of a person and the implications going with that phrase with him, not me.

I don't really care about your salacious fantasies ... and even less about your prude fantasies ;-). The idea that Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Laena had threesomes is something that isn't in the text and is nothing that I ever suggested. It isn't implied and it is also nothing we have to assume even if we follow the breadcrumbs of the author and assume Laena and Rhaenyra may have had sexual relations ... because the book also implies that Laena wasn't in love with Daemon and that Daemon only married Laena Velaryon for her claim and lineage (to stop his own descent), so it might be that these two had as healthy and loving a marriage as Rhaenyra and Laenor. And if Laena was in general not that much into men this certainly wouldn't appear as something she and Rhaenyra might do while Daemon deflowered another of his maidens.

This whole thing isn't even a new idea. It was there right for the taking since we got TRP. If you overlooked it or never caught on what this deliberate phrasing implies then that's also not my fault. I'm not exactly alone with this interpretation.

And to be perfectly clear: This is also not a Mushroom-based anecdote (many of which are clearly just rubbish and are included in the book to be fun), but something Gyldayn just tells us matter-of-factly. It was apparently common knowledge that Rhaenyra grew more than fond of the Lady Laena. And that alone does imply either a romantic/sexual relationship between the two or that Rhaenyra was at least interested in pursuing something like that. That she was successful in this may be demonstrated by the fact that she and Laena grew as close as they did. Or not. It isn't made explicit.

But to get back to another topic - it is in the context of Rhaenyra growing more than fond of and very close to Laena Velaryon that her decision to betroth her two elder sons to Laena's twins is made. This is clearly not some weird way to placate Corlys Velaryon's imagined obsession with his own bloodline, but rather a consequence of whatever close relationship developed between Laena and Rhaenyra.

We do know in what context those betrothals were made ... and we do have no reason to assume that the parentage of Laenor's sons played a role there, nor whatever Corlys wanted for his bloodline.

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On 2/21/2021 at 10:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

They could, but I don't see a great need for that. Acting is acting, not portrayal of something an actor *happens to be* in the real world. I know that it has become popular among queers to lobby for that, but, honestly, it would be better if queer actors became more visible in public life in general, not just by way of playing a specific set of roles.

In a certain sense that's like saying only people being part of a specific group can play members of that group - be it ethnicity, nationality, religion, etc.

It's generally much more of an issue for trans and disabled characters, and from what I understand it's actually more about giving career opportunities to people from those backgrounds than it is about the portrayal of a character. 

It isn't really an issue anymore for sexuality because gay men especially are actually quite well represented in the industry and many have famously played heterosexual characters. 

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20 hours ago, Tha Shiznit said:

Well for the people who don't like the casting choices, it's worth reiterating that HBO still has to agree to the filmed pilot to pick up the series. And if they don't like how the pilot went they could always ask for a reshoot with a new casting involved.

As Ran said, no. HBO has ordered a full 10-episode first season which starts shooting in the next couple of weeks. It never had to go through the pilot process.

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On 2/22/2021 at 7:50 PM, Lord Varys said:

Even Queen Rhaena had a proper husband in her brother Aegon. She even produced two children, doing her dynastic duty. Rhaenyra definitely preferred the company of men ... but whether Laena Velaryon cared for Daemon Targaryen or men in general is unclear. She definitely didn't care about become the queen of Viserys I ... which is certainly interesting.

I mean, princess Rhaena was more than dutiful to Aegon the Uncrowned. 

Aenys was afraid to wed the 2 earlier, but they said to him to do something already with her, because one day he might find his daughter with a bastard in her belly (Aegon's).

So even if Rhaena was into girls, that does not exclude men being in her interest.

I always tought that Rhaenyra finally found a friend in Laena, tho, but there might be more in that. Tho I can't imagine Rhaenyra into this, and Laena was 12 and adventurous when people said about her that he gives a damn about men. That's normal, I think.

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