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18 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I mean, princess Rhaena was more than dutiful to Aegon the Uncrowned. 

Aenys was afraid to wed the 2 earlier, but they said to him to do something already with her, because one day he might find his daughter with a bastard in her belly (Aegon's).

So even if Rhaena was into girls, that does not exclude men being in her interest.

No, you are mistaken there. There are just rumors/fantasies about what Rhaena did when flying around with Dreamfyre - sort of like there are fantasies of Mushroom's what Rhaenyra and Daemon did when they flew together in 111 AC - about how she was deflowered by this or that guy.

King Aenys was never afraid to marry Aegon to Rhaena - that was always what they wanted, in fact, it seems what the Targaryens prepared the children to do eventually even while the Conqueror was still around - instead, he was concerned that his son Aegon would soon impregnate one of the women who liked to hang out with him if he couldn't act out his sexual desires in the marital bed.

After the Faith started to protest and oppose the planned marriage he got somewhat concerned, but he was still determined to go through with the match.

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I always tought that Rhaenyra finally found a friend in Laena, tho, but there might be more in that. Tho I can't imagine Rhaenyra into this, and Laena was 12 and adventurous when people said about her that he gives a damn about men. That's normal, I think.

Well, again, 'more than fond' isn't how George describes friendship in FaB in other occasions ... nor is it a phrase you usually associate with friendship. When I go on record here stating I'm more than fond of this or that user here then people are likely going to raise their eyebrows behind their screens, no?

Laena's age when Viserys' spurned her certainly could explain some of her disinterest, as I said, but the match that fell through there was so prestigious - she could have become queen! - that even a 12-year-old with little actual interest in men may (or should) have been pissed.

I compared it with Sansa's reaction when her father cancelled her betrothal to Joffrey.

But for the entire thing it is not necessary to assume that Laena wasn't into men. Both she and Rhaenyra could both have been bisexual or at least willing to explore/experiment with their sexuality. Cersei and Taena also have sex despite the fact that neither (or at least Cersei) is very much into women. The same with Dany's 'assisted masturbation'.

This just isn't an issue people should weird out over.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, you are mistaken there. There are just rumors/fantasies about what Rhaena did when flying around with Dreamfyre - sort of like there are fantasies of Mushroom's what Rhaenyra and Daemon did when they flew together in 111 AC - about how she was deflowered by this or that guy.

King Aenys was never afraid to marry Aegon to Rhaena - that was always what they wanted, in fact, it seems what the Targaryens prepared the children to do eventually even while the Conqueror was still around - instead, he was concerned that his son Aegon would soon impregnate one of the women who liked to hang out with him if he couldn't act out his sexual desires in the marital bed.

After the Faith started to protest and oppose the planned marriage he got somewhat concerned, but he was still determined to go through with the match.

Not exactly. Back when Aegon had no dragon, he often flew with Rhaena, altough Rhaena most of the time had a girl companion too.

It's been a while since I read F&B, honestly, but I remember how close Rhaena and Aegon were too, the girl even standing out for him. And I don't know who pointed it out to Aenys that he might have a bastard grandchild if he doesn't marry off his children, but the guy referred to Aegon and Rhaena. It was pointed out when Rhaena was along with Aegon, when people mocked Aegon not having a dragon yet.

Also, one can imagine friendship, kinship and dutifulness will not fit into a relationship. If Rhaena would've been totally uninterested in men, but still would've been close to his brother, you can imagine how dutifulness does not fit into the picture.

And yes, Aenys was aware how people will take Rhaena and Aegon, but many at court weren't, and this is told to us in F&B.

On the other hand, I can agree with you that Rhaenyra and Laena might have had some kind of relation, but not likely, since it is only said that Rhaenyra grow fond of Laena, back when he was married to Daemon (and eventually was pregnant with his child), and Ser Harwin was still a close companion to Rhaenyra.

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I just feel like there's too much conjecture around a simple phrase - more than fond. Which is fine since it is all speculation I guess. 

As for Laena's reaction to being spurned, I don't think you can take one character's reaction to something similar (Sansa) and impose it on another entirely different character and draw conclusions around their supposed sexuality/interest in men. Seems pretty flimsy. 

But again, speculation is fun! 

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It's an arbitrarily sexual interpretation of "more than fond[ness]" that isn't necessitated nor implied anywhere in a text full of Rhaenyra's alleged sexual escapades. I wouldn't be surprised to see HBO take that angle, hell maybe George himself will suggest them to, but based on the text we have, nah, it's not there.

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46 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's an arbitrarily sexual interpretation of "more than fond[ness]" that isn't necessitated nor implied anywhere in a text full of Rhaenyra's alleged sexual escapades. I wouldn't be surprised to see HBO take that angle, hell maybe George himself will suggest them to, but based on the text we have, nah, it's not there.

It isn't an interpretation revolving strictly about sexual stuff. I repeatedly wrote 'romantic/sexual relationship' because the text does indeed not specify whether Rhaenyra being more than fond of Lady Laena ever led to any actions on her part. But it implies that Rhaenyra loved the woman, and love can be the basis for romantic and sexual relationships. After all, we never get a hint that Laena had problems with Rhaenyra wanting to be close to her.

This demand for more salacious rumors about Rhaenyra's sexual escapades to justify this interpretation is completely uncalled for, especially in light of the fact that I already made a case that the author did his best to have Gyldayn and his sources downplay and erase female homosexuality. It is very deliberate that we have no concrete homosexual escapades even for Rhaena Targaryen ... whose sexuality seems to be clear in light of all her favorites. Instead we do have fantasies about her having affairs with various men:

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Princess Rhaena had many a suitor as well, but unlike her brother she gave encouragement to none of them. She preferred to spend her days with her siblings, her dogs and cats, and her newest favorite, Alayne Royce, daughter to the Lord of Runestone…a plump and homely girl, but so cherished that Rhaena sometimes took her flying on the back of Dreamfyre, just as she did her brother Aegon. More often, though, Rhaena took to the skies by herself. After her sixteenth nameday, the princess declared herself a woman grown, “free to fly where I will.”
And fly she did. Dreamfyre was seen as far away as Harrenhal, Tarth, Runestone, Gulltown. It was whispered (though never proved) that on one of these flights Rhaena surrendered the flower of her maidenhead to a lowborn lover. A hedge knight, one story had it; others named him a singer, a blacksmith’s son, a village septon.

It is also very deliberate that Rhaena's brother Jaehaerys I's eulogy for his elder sister focused exclusively on her relationship with her brother-husband Aegon, to the point where claimed that Rhaena died with him, back at Harrenhal ... which is a remarkable claim/theory in context when you think about the blows this woman had to suffer long after her brother basically got himself killed. The narrative would clearly suggest that the death of her mother Alyssa, the betrayal of Elissa, the death of her daughter Aerea, and Androw's murders clearly were much more crucial events in her life ... as was the death of Lord Farman and her forced exile from Fair Isle.

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When she died, King Jaehaerys ordained that she be burned at Harrenhal and her ashes interred there. “My brother Aegon died at the hands of our uncle in the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye,” His Grace said at her funeral pyre. “His wife, my sister Rhaena, was not with him at the battle, but she died that day as well.” With Rhaena’s death, Jaehaerys granted Harrenhal and all its lands and incomes to Ser Bywin Strong, the brother of Ser Lucamore Strong of his Kingsguard and a renowned knight in his own right.

We don't know whether Jaehaerys and Alysanne ever fully understood what their sister was about ... but if they did, they deliberately chose to erase that part about her at the end of her life. And even when they sent her to Harrenhal they weren't really interested in that, considering that Alysanne even asked Rhaena after the death of her third husband whether they should arranged a fourth marriage for her:

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Then Queen Alysanne took her sister’s hand in hers and said, “You are still a young woman. If you like, we could find some kind and gentle lord who would cherish you as we do. You could have other children.” That only served to bring a snarl to Rhaena’s lips. She snatched her hand away from the queen’s and said, “I fed my last husband to my dragon. If you make me take another, I may eat him myself.”

Rhaena's reaction to that speaks for itself.

In a very real sense they seemed to want to turn their elder siblings into the kind of incestuous couple they themselves were - and their children Baelon and Alyssa. A happy loving couple for who the sibling-spouse meant the world. But this wasn't what Aegon the Uncrowned was for his sister Rhaena.

In light of all that it isn't surprising that all we get for Rhaenyra's interest in women is that 'more than fond of' phrase. This fits with the author's general take on the concept of homosexuality in this book. It is not something that's rubbed in people's faces - especially not when women are involved. It would actually be surprising if Mushroom had to offer any concrete anecdotes about lesbian sex ... and as it stands, he has none of those (aside from a general slur about Sabitha Frey which doesn't mention anything concrete).

Just as we in general don't need the author hitting us on the head with something if he wants to send the message. Or else let's just pretend Wyman Manderly likes his pie very much because he is clearly a glutton and prefers the Rat Cook song for artistic reasons.

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41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This demand for more salacious rumors about Rhaenyra's sexual escapades to justify this interpretation is completely uncalled for, especially in light of the fact that I already made a case that the author did his best to have Gyldayn and his sources downplay and erase female homosexuality. It is very deliberate that we have no concrete homosexual escapades even for Rhaena Targaryen ... whose sexuality seems to be clear in light of all her favorites. Instead we do have fantasies about her having affairs with various men:

If maester Glydayn really wanted to erase female homosexuality, he would've done it properly, not saying how fond she was of other women.

On the other hand, we know how religious and devoted to the Faith Jaehaerys and Alysanne were. It's like impossible that they didn't know about Rhaena's 'fond of women'. They likely just wanted to avoid a scandal about all this, but it's interesting, considering how they treated their sinful children (but then again, pretty much let people like Daemon grow into what he became, not that it wasn't Baelon's responsibility too).

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2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

If maester Glydayn really wanted to erase female homosexuality, he would've done it properly, not saying how fond she was of other women.

It isn't erased completely, but put very much in the background. The erasing happens with the official acknowledgment of such things. Gyldayn never says Rhaena ever had any kind of romantic/sexual relationship with a woman. He just mentions she had favorites and that certain people - like the maester of Faircastle - had certain theories.
With Rhaenyra the point of the 'more than fond' quote is that it was (well-)known that her affection for Laena was more than mere friendship.

2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

On the other hand, we know how religious and devoted to the Faith Jaehaerys and Alysanne were. It's like impossible that they didn't know about Rhaena's 'fond of women'. They likely just wanted to avoid a scandal about all this, but it's interesting, considering how they treated their sinful children (but then again, pretty much let people like Daemon grow into what he became, not that it wasn't Baelon's responsibility too).

The point here is that the society there is supposed to be - like the real middle ages - not giving much more thought to female sexual agency. What women do in their beds is irrelevant unless it really interferes with their role in life - i.e. their duty to marry and produce children. It is Elissa defying social conventions that angers her brother, not what she does in the bedchamber.

But it is, of course, also improper to repeat this kind of lesbian stuff openly, apparently. Else Jaehaerys and Alysanne could have been as open about that as, apparently, Corlys and Rhaenys were with Laenor (whom they clearly permitted to entertain his favorites at their own castle when they could have thrown him out), or, even more importantly, Aegon V and Betha with their son Daeron - whom they allowed to dissolve his bethrothal and effectively live with him like they were a married couple. Which is something not even Renly and Loras dare to do.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It isn't erased completely, but put very much in the background. The erasing happens with the official acknowledgment of such things. Gyldayn never says Rhaena ever had any kind of romantic/sexual relationship with a woman. He just mentions she had favorites and that certain people - like the maester of Faircastle - had certain theories.
With Rhaenyra the point of the 'more than fond' quote is that it was (well-)known that her affection for Laena was more than mere friendship.

I mean, it's what one can expect from a medieval historical book. Not openly writing down things, but refering to it often enough so people easily could solve the puzzle. It was the discrete way to do it, and the right way to do it in the 3rd century AC.

Again, if someone wants to wash history clean, he does it properly. Just look at TWOIAF, where Ser Amory or Ser Gregor aren't even mentioned, when the death of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon comes into discussion (suggesting bullshit, but nothing close to what actually happened).

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But it is, of course, also improper to repeat this kind of lesbian stuff openly, apparently. Else Jaehaerys and Alysanne could have been as open about that as, apparently,

Again, Jaehaerys and Alysanne being open to homosexuality is just a big contradiction to all we know about them. I mean, homosexuality is adultery either way, and we've seen how they treat that. And we didn't even count in the homosexual part. They were pretty devoted and dogmatic. I'm sticking to my idea that they simply avoided such a scandal.

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23 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I mean, it's what one can expect from a medieval historical book. Not openly writing down things, but refering to it often enough so people easily could solve the puzzle. It was the discrete way to do it, and the right way to do it in the 3rd century AC.

The people we talk about here are the blood of the dragon. They thought themselves above the laws of gods and men, had their own superman doctrine, married their siblings and took, ocassionally, multiple wives. They could also have celebrated their homosexuality if they wanted to.

But the point is that lesbian stuff is even more hushed than male homosexuality. There is a clear difference between Laenor's story and Rhaena's. Laenor was clearly supported in his lifestyle by his parents (and his preferences are discussed in a more open manner not just by Mushroom but also by the Grand Maester). This is not the case for Rhaena. She wasn't supported by her family like Laenor was. Not by her mother, who did her best to separate her from her favorites, not by her father who forced her to marry her brother, not by her uncle (for obvious reasons), and not by her younger siblings, who ignored who and what she was, basically.

23 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Again, Jaehaerys and Alysanne being open to homosexuality is just a big contradiction to all we know about them. I mean, homosexuality is adultery either way, and we've seen how they treat that. And we didn't even count in the homosexual part. They were pretty devoted and dogmatic. I'm sticking to my idea that they simply avoided such a scandal.

It would be interesting to know what they thought about homosexuality. But that they didn't even acknowledge or indicate that they may have had a lesbian sister is quite telling. Rhaena fucking women would be much, much less of scandal than Targaryen incest. Nobody would go to war over this, nor is it is abhorred by the Westerosi the way incest is ... after all, there would be many homosexuals in Westeros compared to the number of people who marry their siblings.

But we have no clue whether Gyldayn invented Jaehaerys' eulogy or Alysanne's suggestion about a fourth marriage - my point just is that the history as written tries to keep lesbian stuff out of the narrative, even if (or despite of the fact) that such things happened and there may have been more concrete sources. This is intentional.

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Maybe Westeros has a medieval understanding of sex, for sex to occur you need a penis. Outside of that, Lesbian sexual activity wasn't considered 'sex' per se. I am not familiar with the Faith of the Seven's position on male homosexual sex though, that would go a long way to understanding what the societal response would be. 

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1 hour ago, Sotan said:

Maybe Westeros has a medieval understanding of sex, for sex to occur you need a penis. Outside of that, Lesbian sexual activity wasn't considered 'sex' per se. I am not familiar with the Faith of the Seven's position on male homosexual sex though, that would go a long way to understanding what the societal response would be. 

There is some vague talk about women lying with women being a sin in the Dornish section in TWoIaF, but the way noblewomen are raised it is pretty clear nobody takes any precaution to prevent girls from exploring their sexuality with each other. And neither Dany nor Cersei consider what they do sinful (although in Cersei's case that's not much).

But, yes, in a medieval setting it is completely irrelevant what women do clandestinely with each other ... unless it goes contrary to their roles in life. Women refusing to marry are a problem ... women having sex or relationships with other women while also marrying and producing children is no problem.

In that sense the Rhaenyra/Laena case here would be no problem at all. They were both giving children to their husbands, so there would be no problem.

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20 hours ago, Werthead said:

As Ran said, no. HBO has ordered a full 10-episode first season which starts shooting in the next couple of weeks. It never had to go through the pilot process.

I see, I guess they have a great deal of confidence in the series. Although isn't ongoing filming against covid-19 protocols, I believe many cinema and television productions are on hold - Like Matt Reeves The Batman, Avatar 2 & 3, Mission: Impossible 7, Fear of the Walking Dead, and The Walking Dead, etc. 

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is some vague talk about women lying with women being a sin in the Dornish section in TWoIaF, but the way noblewomen are raised it is pretty clear nobody takes any precaution to prevent girls from exploring their sexuality with each other. And neither Dany nor Cersei consider what they do sinful (although in Cersei's case that's not much).

But, yes, in a medieval setting it is completely irrelevant what women do clandestinely with each other ... unless it goes contrary to their roles in life. Women refusing to marry are a problem ... women having sex or relationships with other women while also marrying and producing children is no problem.

In that sense the Rhaenyra/Laena case here would be no problem at all. They were both giving children to their husbands, so there would be no problem.

You're right that in the medieval world, lesbian activity only becomes an issue when it interferes in the roles women are supposed to play. I remember reading an account of a woman being punished (I can't remember the specific punishment, just that it was horrific), in the middle ages in Europe for having sex with another woman. It wasn't the lesbian act that made it noteworthy or fit for punishment, it was that she used a  wooden dildo, and therefore took on the role of a man. 

Like I said earlier, I hope they don't go that route with Rhaenyra/Laena. Rhaenyra has enough affairs to keep her busy; a close platonic relationship with another woman whose eventual death devastates her would be far more compelling imo than making Laena just another lover. 

What is Westeros's and specifically the faith's position on male homosexuality? Does anyone know?

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6 hours ago, Tha Shiznit said:

I see, I guess they have a great deal of confidence in the series. Although isn't ongoing filming against covid-19 protocols, I believe many cinema and television productions are on hold - Like Matt Reeves The Batman, Avatar 2 & 3, Mission: Impossible 7, Fear of the Walking Dead, and The Walking Dead, etc. 

The industry has gotten better at having proper Covid protocols, some studios better than others. Netflix has been the best so far, their protocols are insane and they have been releasing a new movie/show every week and will continue to do for the rest of the year. Many studios are copying their model. Plus with vaccination rates going up and it having a marked effect on new covid cases globally, things should be much better in April when filming starts. 

Does anyone know if filming will be in the UK? I believe the UK has already vaccinated close to 18M people and leads the world in doses administered per 100,000 people. If filming is in the UK, with covid protocols and vaccination rates continuing to climb, they should be good to go. 

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The people we talk about here are the blood of the dragon. They thought themselves above the laws of gods and men, had their own superman doctrine, married their siblings and took, ocassionally, multiple wives. They could also have celebrated their homosexuality if they wanted to.

You're now talking like you don't know where this exceptionalist and elitist ideals ended.

I was also refering to Jaehaerys in the case of Rhaena. He was over her every way. How couldn't the king tell his sister what to do? Especially if the things she does contradicts what you believe in. It's because it was easier than hating on each other until one of them dies. Simple. In any case, Rhaena wasn't more exceptional than King Jaehaerys.

Also. You are refering to how female homosexuality was whitewashed, while it's not the case. We are given so many hints about Rhaena, that we can't miss she was into women too. You're saying that involving the parts when Rhaena is portrayed having interest in men too is to counter what he wrote about her sexual orientation. But again, if Glygayn wants to wash out Rhaena's sexuality, he would've done it properly. Nobody would've given a damn about it 200+ years later.

Also, I don't know who pointed it out, but if Rhaenyra was so fond of Laena that way, why did he marry Daemon just months after her death? It's understandable if it was a close friendship. And note that Rhaenyra wouldn't have married him if she didn't love him. 

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3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You're now talking like you don't know where this exceptionalist and elitist ideals ended.

I was also refering to Jaehaerys in the case of Rhaena. He was over her every way. How couldn't the king tell his sister what to do? Especially if the things she does contradicts what you believe in. It's because it was easier than hating on each other until one of them dies. Simple. In any case, Rhaena wasn't more exceptional than King Jaehaerys.

Also. You are refering to how female homosexuality was whitewashed, while it's not the case. We are given so many hints about Rhaena, that we can't miss she was into women too. You're saying that involving the parts when Rhaena is portrayed having interest in men too is to counter what he wrote about her sexual orientation. But again, if Glygayn wants to wash out Rhaena's sexuality, he would've done it properly. Nobody would've given a damn about it 200+ years later.

Also, I don't know who pointed it out, but if Rhaenyra was so fond of Laena that way, why did he marry Daemon just months after her death? It's understandable if it was a close friendship. And note that Rhaenyra wouldn't have married him if she didn't love him. 

Oh, Gyldayn doesn't lie. He mentions Rhaena's favorites on every turn, just as he mentions that Rhaenyra was more than fond of Laena. But he doesn't make things more explicit, unlike with Laenor where he focuses on the man's grief for Joffrey and his insistence to name one of his sons after his fallen favorite.

But there is a general tendency to erase especially female homosexuality as I lay out in Rhaena's case which extends to her family ... something that is clearly not done in the same manner for Laenor Velaryon (who was allowed to entertain his favorites with his parents and even after his marriage he wasn't forced by his wife or his parents or the king to live with Rhaenyra) and, especially, Egg's son Daeron.

And that is why I think it is wrong to expect more explicit references to whatever went on between Rhaenyra and Laena - which is something a number of people were expecting or demanding since they prefer to not get what's implied by the 'more than fond' phrase.

The point of arguments there was to show that it is not necessary to demand or expect more explicit descriptions or references to accept or assume that there was more going on than friendship there - because that's how it is done with female homosexual relations especially.

As for Rhaenyra's actions after Laena's death:

Here the big mystery isn't Laena but Harwin's death. What exactly was Harwin Strong for Rhaenyra besides her sworn shield and, perhaps, a sperm-donor? Apparently nothing. If we take the 'more than fond' line seriously then Rhaenyra's lover/person of interest during the years up to 120 AC was Laena Velaryon, not Harwin Strong. And it is comfort for Laena's death Rhaenyra gives (and perhaps receives) when she starts to spend time with Daemon after Laena's death. Where is Harwin in all that? Why doesn't he comfort Rhaenyra? Why doesn't he prevent Rhaenyra to start a new affair with another man while he and Laenor are still around?

All that can indicate that Rhaenyra was actually never in love with Harwin Strong - or if she was, then whatever she felt for him was long cooled down. She doesn't object to him being sent back to Harrenhal, never mentions his name afterwards, never grieves for him.

For Laena-Rhaenyra we have the 'more than fond' line. For Rhaenyra-Harwin we just have Mushroom's contradicting stories and the fact that the guy became her sworn shield. And to be clear - Mushroom's story that Harwin may have deflowered Rhaenyra in the night things between her and Criston Cole ended somehow is pretty believable. That was when she suffered basically two shitty blows - first her father blackmailing her into agreeing to the Laenor match and then whatever happened between her and Cole. That she then decided that her maidenhead wouldn't be plucked by Laenor Velaryon who might be incapable of doing so is hardly a surprise. But this doesn't mean they did have a clandestine sexual relationship after that ... although if they did chances are that this was strictly business, and Harwin's only job was to make babies in Laenor's stead.

There is no indication that Rhaenyra was really in love with this guy.

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8 hours ago, Sotan said:

Like I said earlier, I hope they don't go that route with Rhaenyra/Laena. Rhaenyra has enough affairs to keep her busy; a close platonic relationship with another woman whose eventual death devastates her would be far more compelling imo than making Laena just another lover. 

Well, if we follow the chronology then Laena would either replace Harwin as Rhaenyra's lover or be the person she falls in love with during her marriage to Laenor (who she clearly never loved). It wouldn't be that crowded in her bedchamber at that particular time.

Overall, Rhaenyra is more serial monogamist than a person who has multiple affairs at the same time. Her first love was clearly her uncle Daemon, and Eustace's version of the events of 111 AC are much more consistent with everything else than Mushroom (who is the one who has her making out with Daemon to acquire the skills to seduce Criston), her second Criston Cole, her third (if it is true) Harwin Strong. Laena could be her fourth.

She returned to Daemon in 120 AC but whether that was a marriage made from love or convenience and/or political necessity is completely unclear. Just because they may have had grief sex which got Rhaenyra pregnant with Aegon doesn't mean they were much in love. And for political reasons it was, apparently, necessary for both Rhaenyra and Daemon to bind her family and the Velaryons together, something that was also done by this marriage.

This is also something people seem to be overlooking when thinking about the Velaryon bloodline issue: After Laena and Laenor are dead, Laenor's widow marries Laena's widower, binding those two families together in a way stronger than they were bound together by those promises that Jace and Luke would marry Laena's girls. Corlys' granddaughters have now a new mother in Rhaenyra, the future queen. They become an even closer family than they were before.

Daemon later shows Rhaenyra how much he desires her (not at all) when he spends his time with aging harlots and ugly bastards, and Rhaenyra herself feels she needs Daemon but never stresses the fact that she loves him all that much.

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What is Westeros's and specifically the faith's position on male homosexuality? Does anyone know?

It is apparently somewhat sinful, but it seems that the basis for that is not that it is deeply unnatural behavior but rather falls in the category of standard fornication. The Faith's view seems to be that sexuality should only happen in marriage, and since men cannot marry men they should not have sex with each other.

Incest and polygamy are clearly much more monstrous sins considering that those have caused a religious uprising.

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At the same time, incest became institutionalised (and even polygamy with Aegon 1 and Maekar) in a way that homosexuality never did. One has to wonder what the Faith's position would be - and the reaction of the common people - if 2 men in power openly declared their love for each other (e.g. Renly and Loras; perhaps by Renly marrying Margaery to father kids but otherwise making it explicit that Loras was the one he loved).

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, Gyldayn doesn't lie. He mentions Rhaena's favorites on every turn, just as he mentions that Rhaenyra was more than fond of Laena. But he doesn't make things more explicit, unlike with Laenor where he focuses on the man's grief for Joffrey and his insistence to name one of his sons after his fallen favorite.

But there is a general tendency to erase especially female homosexuality as I lay out in Rhaena's case which extends to her family ... something that is clearly not done in the same manner for Laenor Velaryon (who was allowed to entertain his favorites with his parents and even after his marriage he wasn't forced by his wife or his parents or the king to live with Rhaenyra) and, especially, Egg's son Daeron.

And that is why I think it is wrong to expect more explicit references to whatever went on between Rhaenyra and Laena - which is something a number of people were expecting or demanding since they prefer to not get what's implied by the 'more than fond' phrase.

The point of arguments there was to show that it is not necessary to demand or expect more explicit descriptions or references to accept or assume that there was more going on than friendship there - because that's how it is done with female homosexual relations especially.

As for Rhaenyra's actions after Laena's death:

Here the big mystery isn't Laena but Harwin's death. What exactly was Harwin Strong for Rhaenyra besides her sworn shield and, perhaps, a sperm-donor? Apparently nothing. If we take the 'more than fond' line seriously then Rhaenyra's lover/person of interest during the years up to 120 AC was Laena Velaryon, not Harwin Strong. And it is comfort for Laena's death Rhaenyra gives (and perhaps receives) when she starts to spend time with Daemon after Laena's death. Where is Harwin in all that? Why doesn't he comfort Rhaenyra? Why doesn't he prevent Rhaenyra to start a new affair with another man while he and Laenor are still around?

All that can indicate that Rhaenyra was actually never in love with Harwin Strong - or if she was, then whatever she felt for him was long cooled down. She doesn't object to him being sent back to Harrenhal, never mentions his name afterwards, never grieves for him.

For Laena-Rhaenyra we have the 'more than fond' line. For Rhaenyra-Harwin we just have Mushroom's contradicting stories and the fact that the guy became her sworn shield. And to be clear - Mushroom's story that Harwin may have deflowered Rhaenyra in the night things between her and Criston Cole ended somehow is pretty believable. That was when she suffered basically two shitty blows - first her father blackmailing her into agreeing to the Laenor match and then whatever happened between her and Cole. That she then decided that her maidenhead wouldn't be plucked by Laenor Velaryon who might be incapable of doing so is hardly a surprise. But this doesn't mean they did have a clandestine sexual relationship after that ... although if they did chances are that this was strictly business, and Harwin's only job was to make babies in Laenor's stead.

There is no indication that Rhaenyra was really in love with this guy.

Why she would make babies with Harwin without any sort of emotional connection , just to do her marital duty - when she could had picked any person of Valyrian origin after seeing the look of first child and hearing the spiteful remarks, which later turned to life threatening issues?

Harwin became her sworn shield in  113-114AC, having three children in 114 AC, 115 AC and 117 AC staying with her until he was sent by Viserys to Harenhall to stop the rumors of bastardry and died in fire of 120 AC - that is quite a record for just " a sperm donor".

 

 

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