More Dragon Casting Announced

[Crixus]

54 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Why she would make babies with Harwin without any sort of emotional connection , just to do her marital duty - when she could had picked any person of Valyrian origin after seeing the look of first child and hearing the spiteful remarks, which later turned to life threatening issues?

Harwin became her sworn shield in  113-114AC, having three children in 114 AC, 115 AC and 117 AC staying with her until he was sent by Viserys to Harenhall to stop the rumors of bastardry and died in fire of 120 AC - that is quite a record for just " a sperm donor".

 

 

Completely agree. Risking her sons' future and inheritance/throne for a simple sperm donor seems highly unlikely. Hell, this was one of the crucial issues in the entire crisis.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Why she would make babies with Harwin without any sort of emotional connection , just to do her marital duty - when she could had picked any person of Valyrian origin after seeing the look of first child and hearing the spiteful remarks, which later turned to life threatening issues?

Harwin became her sworn shield in  113-114AC, having three children in 114 AC, 115 AC and 117 AC staying with her until he was sent by Viserys to Harenhall to stop the rumors of bastardry and died in fire of 120 AC - that is quite a record for just " a sperm donor".

Because Rhaenyra was a proud woman who didn't care much about what he dear stepmother said? Because she was the blood of the dragon, the beloved and cherished favorite child of her royal father who could do whatever she wanted? Such people do as they please, they do not have to bother thinking about how something might look in the eyes of lesser folks.

And to reiterate something for the thousandth time - we don't know how Harwin Strong looked like. He could have been blond and blue-eyed for all we know. All we know is that the boys didn't look like Laenor ... nobody ever said they looked like Harwin Strong. The oddity is that Laenor and Rhaenyra do not have children looking Valyrian. It is explicitly not that they have children looking exactly like Rhaenyra's sworn shield.

If the boys had been exact carbon copies of Harwin Strong then there wouldn't have been just slanders and rumors.

My point is that aside from Harwin being Rhaenyra's sworn shield we have no indication that they had a close emotional connection. The way to hint at deep feelings is what we get for Joffrey Lonmouth - Laenor weeping like a girl for days and never leaving the man's bedside until his death. And his insistence to name one of his sons after Joffrey. If we had Rhaenyra collapse - like she did after Luke's death, say - when she heard about Harwin we could speculate about love. The same if Rhaenyra had insisted to name one of her sons after Harwin.

Alysanne's many children are living testimony that even incestuous couples of Targaryen/Velaryon ancestry can produce a broad variety of children who look different. One brown-haired child of Rhaenyra's doesn't mean her second or third would have to look the same way ... just as there was no guarantee that Rhaenyra and Daemon would produce children with Valyrian features. Sometimes it happens, and sometimes it doesn't.

We even have reverse cases where quite a few Targaryen children do not resemble their non-Valyrian, dark-haired parent - Baelor Breakspear looks like Myriah, but Aerys I and Maekar have very prominent Valyrian features (and Rhaegel perhaps, too), Duncan Targaryen resembles his mother, but Jaehaerys II and Daeron do not ... and none of the descendants of Jaehaerys II and Shaera do give any trace that they are descended from both Betha Blackwood and Myriah Martell (and Dyanna Dayne, who could also have had non-Valyrian features).

3 minutes ago, Crixus said:

Completely agree. Risking her sons' future and inheritance/throne for a simple sperm donor seems highly unlikely. Hell, this was one of the crucial issues in the entire crisis.

Don't put the cart before the horse. People deal with problems when they present themselves, not when they lay the groundwork for them.

We could just as well complain that there were Green and Black factions at all. Why didn't they work out their differences? Why didn't they get along? Were they stupid? They were family, after all...

[Sotan]

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Why she would make babies with Harwin without any sort of emotional connection , just to do her marital duty - when she could had picked any person of Valyrian origin after seeing the look of first child and hearing the spiteful remarks, which later turned to life threatening issues?

Harwin became her sworn shield in  113-114AC, having three children in 114 AC, 115 AC and 117 AC staying with her until he was sent by Viserys to Harenhall to stop the rumors of bastardry and died in fire of 120 AC - that is quite a record for just " a sperm donor".

I love it when points like these are brought up. The writers have so much to work with, give us answers and really make this story their own. 

[Crixus]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:Don't put the cart before the horse. People deal with problems when they present themselves, not when they lay the groundwork for them.

 

We could just as well complain that there were Green and Black factions at all. Why didn't they work out their differences? Why didn't they get along? Were they stupid? They were family, after all...

Your point would be more valid if there had been 1 child who didn't look 'Valyrian'/like Strong with the brown hair and pug nose. But 3 sons?? The talk would've started after Jace, so again, I don't quite agree. 

[Sotan]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And to reiterate something for the thousandth time - we don't know how Harwin Strong looked like. He could have been blond and blue-eyed for all we know. All we know is that the boys didn't look like Laenor ... nobody ever said they looked like Harwin Strong. The oddity is that Laenor and Rhaenyra do not have children looking Valyrian. It is explicitly not that they have children looking exactly like Rhaenyra's sworn shield.

If the boys had been exact carbon copies of Harwin Strong then there wouldn't have been just slanders and rumors.

 

George goes on and on about the boys having the Strong look, brown hair and a pug nose. 

[Ran]

If Strong was golden haired and blue-eyed, no one would whisper his name for the father, unless he happened to have a father and/or siblings who matched the "Strong" look and so could concievably pass it on even if he did not have it in particular.

No other name is ever suggested for the father of the children for the obvious reason that there was no one else who seemed fitting.

Note also Septon Eustace, who we are told mentioned the rumor but dismisses it, also reports that Laenor and Harwin were at Rhaenyra's bedside for the birth of Luke.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Crixus said:

Your point would be more valid if there had been 1 child who didn't look 'Valyrian'/like Strong with the brown hair and pug nose. But 3 sons?? The talk would've started after Jace, so again, I don't quite agree. 

The talk started as the non-Valyrian children of Rhaenyra's started to pile up. Alicent's first poisonous remark to Laenor is recorded at the birth of Lucerys.

And again - it is not stated that Harwin Strong (or any Strong for that matter) was brown-haired, brown-eyed, and pug-nosed. That is merely the description of the children who didn't resemble their father Laenor. It is nowhere stated that they looked like Harwin Strong.

The only Strong we have a description of is Lucamore Strong - and he was a blond bull.

In that sense, it is entirely possible that the rumors Alicent spread is just a 'they don't look like their dad' story, pointing to the closest male confidant and friend of Rhaenyra as the likely true father.

Kind of like Stannis jumped to the conclusion that Jaime must be the father of Cersei's children when he really never had any evidence for that that we know of. All he had was that the children didn't look like Robert ... but they could have inherited their golden hair and green eyes solely from their mother. The true father could have been Trant or Blount or any other man at court with access to Queen Cersei.

I mean, it is kind of a wild and mad guess that Jaime would be the father of the children there. Incest is a vile sin, and not something the Lannisters or anyone whose name isn't Targaryen usually does. And he is Cersei twin brother, meaning him having a very close bond to his sweet sister is hardly suspicious or even unusual. Nobody but people with very ugly fantasies about twin sex should actually ever suspect that Cersei and Jaime do have sexual relations.

Unless Stannis himself ever saw them having sex or exchanging kisses that were clearly not brotherly and sisterly ... or he had reports about such things he deemed credible.

2 minutes ago, Sotan said:

George goes on and on about the boys having the Strong look, brown hair and a pug nose. 

The Greens say the boys are Strongs, but they never say they look like Harwin (or Larys or Lyonel). Alicent just decided that Harwin Strong was 'the true father' and her sons aped her in this regard.

If we had an actual description of Harwin Strong it would be different.

And to be sure - it is very hard to imagine this whole thing working if Harwin truly was a carbon copy of the boys. Because then it would be painstakingly obvious for everyone. The entire Realm would gossip about this and it would have had some severe repercussions, never mind how much Viserys I loved his daughter.

It works much better if it is an oddity that the boys don't look like their father (and mother) but not exactly like their mother's bodyguard.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

If Strong was golden haired and blue-eyed, no one would whisper his name for the father, unless he happened to have a father and/or siblings who matched the "Strong" look and so could concievably pass it on even if he did not have it in particular.

No other name is ever suggested for the father of the children for the obvious reason that there was no one else who seemed fitting.

The idea is that the boys looked 'common'. Harwin Strong isn't of Valyrian descent, so he is a conveniently candidate for this whole thing.

It is certainly possible that he looked *somewhat* like the Velaryon boys. But it isn't confirmed. The thing is deliberately left vague by George and Gyldayn, to the point that when Joffrey Velaryon's death is described we still get both Laenor and Harwin mentioned as potential fathers.

If you compare it to the story of the Hull boys I'd say there it is almost confirmed that Corlys was their true father. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence there. But with Laenor's sons it is deliberately less obvious.

Vice versa, both Rhaenyra and Laenor aren't exactly pure-blooded Valyrians - we have no clue who Corlys' mother and grandmother are, and Princess Rhaenys inherited all the Durrandon and Baratheon blood from her mother Jocelyn and whatever is connected to that. Brown hair and brown eyes could have been passed down from that side of the family.

And Rhaenyra is an Arryn on her mother's side - we don't know how Aemma looked, nor how her father Rodrik looked in the hair and eye department. Lord Rodrik Arryn is described in detail in FaB but George really (and perhaps rather deliberately) failed to give us his hair or eye color.

Traditionally, the Arryns are fair-haired Andals - but Rodrik's and Aemma's entire branch seems to die out ... or rather to not continue the lordly branch due to Jeyne Arryn's decision to hand the Vale to her distant cousin Joffrey. Rodrik and all his descendants could have been brown-haired Arryns.

[Crixus]

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The talk started as the non-Valyrian children of Rhaenyra's started to pile up. Alicent's first poisonous remark to Laenor is recorded at the birth of Lucerys.

And again - it is not stated that Harwin Strong (or any Strong for that matter) was brown-haired, brown-eyed, and pug-nosed. That is merely the description of the children who didn't resemble their father Laenor. It is nowhere stated that they looked like Harwin Strong.

 

Again, I feel like you're either reading too much into stuff, or making assumptions off your own ideas. For instance: just because Alicent's first poisonous remark to Laenor was at Lucerys' birth, doesn't mean the rumours hadn't been floating around before that, encouraged by the Greens. This is the sort of deduction you frequently make in your posts btw - the absence of information = possibility of an event occurring. 

Similarly, the mere fact that the accusation/slander stung to the degree it did (being Strong's get) implies there was plausibility to it. If, as Ran has pointed out, Harwin had been blond/blue-eyed like Lucamore, it would've been entirely too easy to laugh such rumours off. Harwin's appearance hasn't been spelled out (much like a lot of other stuff), but it's fairly logical to assume that the fact that all 3 kids looked similar, that they were rumoured to be Harwin's kids, and that this rumour led to Aemond getting his eye stabbed and subsequent events, points to there being some degree of plausibility to it. 

I mean you can't have it both ways: making assumptions off the absence of information + taking stated facts and spinning them off into areas that are simply not in the text (baldly stated or hinted at). 

[Lord Varys]

38 minutes ago, Crixus said:

Again, I feel like you're either reading too much into stuff, or making assumptions off your own ideas. For instance: just because Alicent's first poisonous remark to Laenor was at Lucerys' birth, doesn't mean the rumours hadn't been floating around before that, encouraged by the Greens. This is the sort of deduction you frequently make in your posts btw - the absence of information = possibility of an event occurring. 

Similarly, the mere fact that the accusation/slander stung to the degree it did (being Strong's get) implies there was plausibility to it. If, as Ran has pointed out, Harwin had been blond/blue-eyed like Lucamore, it would've been entirely too easy to laugh such rumours off. Harwin's appearance hasn't been spelled out (much like a lot of other stuff), but it's fairly logical to assume that the fact that all 3 kids looked similar, that they were rumoured to be Harwin's kids, and that this rumour led to Aemond getting his eye stabbed and subsequent events, points to there being some degree of plausibility to it. 

I mean you can't have it both ways: making assumptions off the absence of information + taking stated facts and spinning them off into areas that are simply not in the text (baldly stated or hinted at). 

Oh, but this is fictional history. We do not assume things are going on that nobody talks about, and if a rumor develops over time then we look at when it is first mentioned. Anything else is writing fan fiction in your own head.

The first recorded instance of the 'Laenor cannot father children' rumor started with the birth of Lucerys.

The first time this rumor was actually publicly discussed was only in 120 AC when Aemond insulted his nephews, and Aegon the Elder admitted to have told his brother about that. And then the king made his ruling on the matter and people kept their tongues or lost them (as the Velaryons later did).

Afterwards nobody repeated that rumor publicly considering the king had decreed he would even cut out royal tongues if they defied him.

My point on the issue of Rhaenyra's children just is that the point of the text as written is that things are not supposed to be decided one side or the other. And part of that is the fact that it is not said Harwin Strong had brown hair, brown eyes, and a pug nose.

Also, it is also clear that this entire thing is political - it is part of the Green agenda in that succession struggle, part of the ammunition they use to try to force Viserys I to change the succession. We have no reason to assume that Alicent and Aegon and Aemond are neutral in this, are just looking at the facts (i.e. the looks of the people they are targeting). They do have an agenda and would do and say almost anything to get what they want. We see this in the account of the first Green Council where they both reiterate their theories about the Velaryon boys as well as Laenor's sons supposedly inheriting their father's sexual preferences.

They certainly could omit or not care about the looks of Harwin or Queen Aemma or Corlys Velaryon's mother.

I'm not saying the boys aren't Harwin's, I just stress the point that we are not supposed to pretend we do know.

[Eltharion21]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea is that the boys looked 'common'. Harwin Strong isn't of Valyrian descent, so he is a conveniently candidate for this whole thing.

It is certainly possible that he looked *somewhat* like the Velaryon boys. But it isn't confirmed. The thing is deliberately left vague by George and Gyldayn, to the point that when Joffrey Velaryon's death is described we still get both Laenor and Harwin mentioned as potential fathers.

If you compare it to the story of the Hull boys I'd say there it is almost confirmed that Corlys was their true father. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence there. But with Laenor's sons it is deliberately less obvious.

Vice versa, both Rhaenyra and Laenor aren't exactly pure-blooded Valyrians - we have no clue who Corlys' mother and grandmother are, and Princess Rhaenys inherited all the Durrandon and Baratheon blood from her mother Jocelyn and whatever is connected to that. Brown hair and brown eyes could have been passed down from that side of the family.

And Rhaenyra is an Arryn on her mother's side - we don't know how Aemma looked, nor how her father Rodrik looked in the hair and eye department. Lord Rodrik Arryn is described in detail in FaB but George really (and perhaps rather deliberately) failed to give us his hair or eye color.

Traditionally, the Arryns are fair-haired Andals - but Rodrik's and Aemma's entire branch seems to die out ... or rather to not continue the lordly branch due to Jeyne Arryn's decision to hand the Vale to her distant cousin Joffrey. Rodrik and all his descendants could have been brown-haired Arryns.

We have enough information from Fire and Blood to make probable assumptions the truth about parentage of Rhaenyra's first three children.

Quote

King Viserys invited Lyonel Strong, Lord of Harrenhal, to join the small council as master of laws. A big man, burly and balding, Lord Strong enjoyed a formidable reputation as a battler. Those who did not know him oft took him for a brute, mistaking his silences and slowness of speech for stupidity. This was far from the truth.

...

Lord Oakheart of Old Oak, and Lord Tarly of Horn Hill paid court to the princess, as did the Hand’s eldest son, Ser Harwin Strong. Breakbones, as he was called, was heir to Harrenhal, and said to be the strongest man in the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Quote

After hours of blood and clangor, however, the last man left standing was a strapping young knight from the riverlands, a broad-shouldered blond bull called Ser Lucamore Strong.

...

In Flea Bottom and along the Street of Silk where whores and panders plied their trade, men and women of low birth and lower morals took a wicked pleasure in the fall of an anointed knight, and made bawdy japes about “Ser Lucamore the Lusty,” but no laughter was heard in the Red Keep.

We see that strapping and lusty epithet are used in describing Jacaerys and Lucerys:

Quote

Jacaerys - Born in the waning days of 114 AC, the boy was a large, strapping lad, with brown hair, brown eyes, and a pug nose.

...

The child was named Lucerys (Luke for short). Septon Eustace tells us that both Ser Laenor and Ser Harwin were at Rhaenyra’s bedside for his birth. Like his brother, Jace, Luke had brown eyes and a healthy head of brown hair, rather than the silver-gilt hair of Targaryen princelings, but he was a large and lusty lad, and King Viserys was delighted with him when the child was presented at court.

...

Joffrey Velaryon was as big and red-faced and healthy as his brothers, but like them he had brown eyes, brown hair, and features that some at court called “common.” 

Interestingly bias present in various sources of the Dance transcribes itself even to Wiki of Ice and Fire , through it's editors:

Quote

After the fall of King's Landing to the blacks, Eustace wrote that the Iron Throne cut Rhaenyra when she sat upon it, although she was still clad in armor.

Incorrect as she might have worn ceremonial armor as she acted as a figurehead and only landed after other Dragonriders secured the city, and Eustace mentions that event repeated itself, there would also be witnesses present to repute his claim if false.

Quote

"The true parentage of Rhaenyra's three eldest children is still unclear. As Rhaenyra had an Arryn mother, and Laenor a Baratheon grandmother, there is a possibility Jace, Luke, and Joff inherited their looks from more distant relatives, instead of their parents."

Which isn't proof as if Arryn genes showed in Rhaenyra's children by "Laenor" they would show later in the line of Aegon III or Viserys II - but we have no mention of strapping, brown eyed, brown haired, pug nosed, lusty and Strong children in Targaryen line.

[Sotan]

8 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Which isn't proof as if Arryn genes showed in Rhaenyra's children by "Laenor" they would show later in the line of Aegon III or Viserys II - but we have no mention of strapping, brown eyed, brown haired, pug nosed, lusty and Strong children in Targaryen line.

Rhaenyra's children with Laenor have both Arryn and Baratheon ancestry. Her children with Daemon and their descendants only had that one Arryn ancestor.  I think. 

[Lord Varys]

41 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

We have enough information from Fire and Blood to make probable assumptions the truth about parentage of Rhaenyra's first three children.

We see that strapping and lusty epithet are used in describing Jacaerys and Lucerys:

Interestingly bias present in various sources of the Dance transcribes itself even to Wiki of Ice and Fire , through it's editors:

Incorrect as she might have worn ceremonial armor as she acted as a figurehead and only landed after other Dragonriders secured the city, and Eustace mentions that event repeated itself, there would also be witnesses present to repute his claim if false.

Which isn't proof as if Arryn genes showed in Rhaenyra's children by "Laenor" they would show later in the line of Aegon III or Viserys II - but we have no mention of strapping, brown eyed, brown haired, pug nosed, lusty and Strong children in Targaryen line.

Oh, I'm very aware about their build and stuff ... but you seem to be overlooking the fact that both lustiness as well as a powerful build are also strong Targaryen traits. Not all Targaryens look that way, mind you, but most do. Maegor the Cruel was a very powerfully built man as was Daemon Blackfyre, Maelys the Monstrous, and, presumably, the Dragonknight; and Aegon II, Aegon IV, and even Viserys I do also count as lusty lads ... as does Daemon who also fits the bill of the powerfully built warrior.

Even men like Aegon the Uncrowned, his brother Viserys, Jaehaerys I, and Aemon & Baelon fit the bill of tall and muscular, very strong men. They may not have been as strong as Harwin Strong ... but Maegor the Cruel, Daemon Blackfyre, and Maelys the Monstrous should be pretty much in that category. There were Targaryens who were among the most powerful men of their generation.

This isn't conclusive.

And as I laid out, many of the non-Valyrian traits in the Targaryen family disappear without a trace or rarely show up again. We have no idea where Alyssa's mismatched eyes come from, but they do not become a trait that pops up all that often among her descendants. Rhaenys' Baratheon hair disappears without a trace, as do the traits of Myriah Martell and Betha Blackwood in (most of) their descendants. None of Maekar's sons resembled their grandmother, only Duncan looked like his mother, etc.

In that sense it wouldn't be particularly weird if Laenor and Rhaenyra produced those brown-haired boys because of their specific set of inherited traits - something that didn't happen with Rhaenyra and Daemon - and even less so when both Daenaera Velaryon and, especially, Larra Rogare with her strong Valyrian lineage strengthened the royal bloodline again.

30 minutes ago, Sotan said:

Rhaenyra's children with Laenor have both Arryn and Baratheon ancestry. Her children with Daemon and their descendants only had that one Arryn ancestor.  I think. 

Laenor Velaryon has comparatively thin Valyrian blood. George even deleted the line about him having the blood of the dragon on both sides of his lineage from FaB. He is a Targaryen through his mother, but Rhaenys had a Baratheon/Velaryon mother, and has thus all the non-Valyrian ancestors that go with that bloodline. Alyssa Velaryon has Velaryon and perhaps even Targaryens among her paternal ancestors, but her mother was a Massey which means her ancestors on that side of the family would be all over the place. Just as the Baratheon bloodline should have very obscure origins if you go beyond Orys Baratheon's unknown mother. And on the Durrandon side there should be basically ancestors from all over the Stormlands and eventually even the Reach and the Riverlands and Dorne, etc.

On his father's side Laenor has Velaryon blood, but as we have discussed repeatedly here in this thread and elsewhere in relation to the casting, we don't know who his parents were, nor who his paternal grandmother was.

There could have been a lot - really a lot! - of brown-haired, brown-eyed women among those people.

And it could have been the same with the Arryns. Their fair hair doesn't seem to be that dominant considering that Jon Arryn's - who was a fair-haired Arryn - son and heir looks exactly like his Tully mother. And the various Arryn branches are heavily intermarried with their bannermen and other nobility, most of which wouldn't be predominantly blond.

[The Dragon Demands]

On 2/24/2021 at 10:58 PM, Sotan said:

You're right that in the medieval world, lesbian activity only becomes an issue when it interferes in the roles women are supposed to play. I remember reading an account of a woman being punished (I can't remember the specific punishment, just that it was horrific), in the middle ages in Europe for having sex with another woman. It wasn't the lesbian act that made it noteworthy or fit for punishment, it was that she used a  wooden dildo, and therefore took on the role of a man. 

 I wrote up the broad points into the "Gender and Sexuality" article on the wiki.

Short version is that due to an all-male clergy, the real Middle Ages didn't even recognize female homosexuality to condemn it. Or they did, but thought of it as on par with masturbation - they were very "phallo-centric". And yes I cited that specific example - using a dildo for penetrative sex between two women was treated worse because it was actual "sex" to them. Horrific punishment?  Well they just did "penance" for a longer term.

There weren't really mass persecutions of homosexuality in the Middle Ages. And this is the key point: they didn't even conceptually recognize "homosexuals" as a distinct category of person. It was an action you could perform, like adultery. Not an exclusive identity. 

Truly the best parallel is adultery; people weren't supposed to do it but many still did, and you didn't talk about it in public, but it wasn't like a gigantic crime.  

HOWEVER, because Westeros has more female clergy, they...broadly...seem to recognize female same-sex relationships as "actual sex", and hold it in an equal light to male same-sex relationships (that is, negatively).  It's "frowned upon". 

[The Dragon Demands]

I just found this amazing clip from early in Matt Smith's career that seems so much like a young Daemon:

he appeared in a deleted flashback scene from "In Bruges" - it's a deleted scene so it doesn't have any sound effects (no walking down stairs noises or punching noises etc) so keep that in mind). Pay attention to just his physicality, his swagger and attitude as this gangster character:

@Ran  That's a Rogue Prince, there.

[Daeron the Daring]

On 2/25/2021 at 11:23 AM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, Gyldayn doesn't lie. He mentions Rhaena's favorites on every turn, just as he mentions that Rhaenyra was more than fond of Laena. But he doesn't make things more explicit, unlike with Laenor where he focuses on the man's grief for Joffrey and his insistence to name one of his sons after his fallen favorite.

But there is a general tendency to erase especially female homosexuality as I lay out in Rhaena's case which extends to her family ... something that is clearly not done in the same manner for Laenor Velaryon (who was allowed to entertain his favorites with his parents and even after his marriage he wasn't forced by his wife or his parents or the king to live with Rhaenyra) and, especially, Egg's son Daeron.

And that is why I think it is wrong to expect more explicit references to whatever went on between Rhaenyra and Laena - which is something a number of people were expecting or demanding since they prefer to not get what's implied by the 'more than fond' phrase.

The point of arguments there was to show that it is not necessary to demand or expect more explicit descriptions or references to accept or assume that there was more going on than friendship there - because that's how it is done with female homosexual relations especially.

As for Rhaenyra's actions after Laena's death:

Here the big mystery isn't Laena but Harwin's death. What exactly was Harwin Strong for Rhaenyra besides her sworn shield and, perhaps, a sperm-donor? Apparently nothing. If we take the 'more than fond' line seriously then Rhaenyra's lover/person of interest during the years up to 120 AC was Laena Velaryon, not Harwin Strong. And it is comfort for Laena's death Rhaenyra gives (and perhaps receives) when she starts to spend time with Daemon after Laena's death. Where is Harwin in all that? Why doesn't he comfort Rhaenyra? Why doesn't he prevent Rhaenyra to start a new affair with another man while he and Laenor are still around?

All that can indicate that Rhaenyra was actually never in love with Harwin Strong - or if she was, then whatever she felt for him was long cooled down. She doesn't object to him being sent back to Harrenhal, never mentions his name afterwards, never grieves for him.

For Laena-Rhaenyra we have the 'more than fond' line. For Rhaenyra-Harwin we just have Mushroom's contradicting stories and the fact that the guy became her sworn shield. And to be clear - Mushroom's story that Harwin may have deflowered Rhaenyra in the night things between her and Criston Cole ended somehow is pretty believable. That was when she suffered basically two shitty blows - first her father blackmailing her into agreeing to the Laenor match and then whatever happened between her and Cole. That she then decided that her maidenhead wouldn't be plucked by Laenor Velaryon who might be incapable of doing so is hardly a surprise. But this doesn't mean they did have a clandestine sexual relationship after that ... although if they did chances are that this was strictly business, and Harwin's only job was to make babies in Laenor's stead.

There is no indication that Rhaenyra was really in love with this guy.

Sorry but you're just talking bullshit now.

1) You said before that Glydayn was whitewashing history when it comes to lesbians. Now you're telling me he's not. The fact that never ever was directly mentioned that who had affair with who, heterosexual, or homosexual, makes me believe that there was no whitewashing, just simply avoiding writing down such things.

2) It is a pretty illogical statement that Ser Harwin was a sperm bank to Rhaenyra. I mean, I doubt Rhaenyra intentionally slept with him to make bastard children, even if it wasn't love from her side.

3) Someone who really never had a close friend or companion (Rhaenyra) can easily grow fond of someone else. That does not mean they are having an affair. We've seen how Rhaena's life wasn't whitewashed, why would Rhaenyra's be, when we are told about Daemon and Ser Harwin and Ser Criston as rumored lovers/individuals with whom she might have had sex with?

4) By the time this might have happened, Ser Harwin was still with Rhaenyra (I mean he was still 'guarding' her).

5) If she really had an affair with Laena, why it had no consequences on her? Instead she married Daemon only months after. You can say it wasn't love from his side, but Rhaenyra wouldn't have married him if she didn't love him.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Sorry but you're just talking bullshit now.

1) You said before that Glydayn was whitewashing history when it comes to lesbians. Now you're telling me he's not. The fact that never ever was directly mentioned that who had affair with who, heterosexual, or homosexual, makes me believe that there was no whitewashing, just simply avoiding writing down such things.

If you go back then you'll see that I point out that lesbians are ignored/erased more than male homosexuals. This was an answer to the demand that there would (have to) be more explicit stories about lesbian sex if Rhaenyra and Laena had been a thing.

And the point basically is that this isn't the case because we do not have anything explicit about any of the other lesbian/bisexual women in the story.

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

2) It is a pretty illogical statement that Ser Harwin was a sperm bank to Rhaenyra. I mean, I doubt Rhaenyra intentionally slept with him to make bastard children, even if it wasn't love from her side.

What? The entire point of the Harwin thing is that Rhaenyra was looking for a man to father Laenor's children - because she either did not want to sleep with him at all, or, more likely, Laenor flat-out refused to have sex with her or even live with her. We don't know whether their marriage was pretty much impossible from the start (although Rhaenyra clearly opposed the marriage from the start) or whether Criston Cole ruining their wedding feast is what caused this rift.

But the point of the marriage - and Rhaenyra's duty as a princess - was to produce children, so she had to find a father for those children if Laenor wasn't an option.

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

3) Someone who really never had a close friend or companion (Rhaenyra) can easily grow fond of someone else. That does not mean they are having an affair. We've seen how Rhaena's life wasn't whitewashed, why would Rhaenyra's be, when we are told about Daemon and Ser Harwin and Ser Criston as rumored lovers/individuals with whom she might have had sex with?

We actually do have a strong hint that Laena and Rhaenyra may have had an affair with that 'more than fond' phrase. As I showed, this phrase is used thrice in FaB, and in both other instances it refers to something that isn't just a platonic friendship.

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

4) By the time this might have happened, Ser Harwin was still with Rhaenyra (I mean he was still 'guarding' her).

Yes, but we have no indication that there was ever a romance or love going on between them - even if Harwin was the father of the children, he may have just been convenient for that job, being around Rhaenyra all the time, anyway. There is no indication she ever had deeper feelings for that man. Nobody ever says Rhaenyra 'was more than fond' of Harwin Strong.

And the fact that Rhaenyra seems to have turned to Laena for a close companion in the years leading up to 120 AC as well as the fact that Rhaenyra turned to Daemon after the death of Laena also indicates that she didn't care much about Harwin - she never grieved for either him or Laenor.

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

5) If she really had an affair with Laena, why it had no consequences on her? Instead she married Daemon only months after. You can say it wasn't love from his side, but Rhaenyra wouldn't have married him if she didn't love him.

No, Rhaenyra had as many political reasons to marry Daemon as he had to marry her. As I said, this marriage bound both of the Targaryen-Velaryon branches tightly together - with Laenor's widow becoming the new mother of Laena's daughters while Laena's widower became the new father or Laenor's sons -, it ensured Rhaenyra was not forced to remarry outside the family, a man who might not be supporting her succeeding to the Iron Throne.

But, of course, while chances are pretty high that Daemon Targaryen *never* loved his niece and always just viewed her as a means to get closer to the throne - the same way he may have viewed Laena - Rhaenyra Targaryen was very much infatuated with her uncle in her youth. But chances are that those original feelings had somewhat changed by the time of their marriage in 120 AC. Perhaps she still had the hots for him? Perhaps she just viewed him as the only proper consort to sit beside her when she took the Iron Throne? We don't know.

[Daeron the Daring]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If you go back then you'll see that I point out that lesbians are ignored/erased more than male homosexuals. This was an answer to the demand that there would (have to) be more explicit stories about lesbian sex if Rhaenyra and Laena had been a thing.

And the point basically is that this isn't the case because we do not have anything explicit about any of the other lesbian/bisexual women in the story.

What? The entire point of the Harwin thing is that Rhaenyra was looking for a man to father Laenor's children - because she either did not want to sleep with him at all, or, more likely, Laenor flat-out refused to have sex with her or even live with her. We don't know whether their marriage was pretty much impossible from the start (although Rhaenyra clearly opposed the marriage from the start) or whether Criston Cole ruining their wedding feast is what caused this rift.

But the point of the marriage - and Rhaenyra's duty as a princess - was to produce children, so she had to find a father for those children if Laenor wasn't an option.

We actually do have a strong hint that Laena and Rhaenyra may have had an affair with that 'more than fond' phrase. As I showed, this phrase is used thrice in FaB, and in both other instances it refers to something that isn't just a platonic friendship.

Yes, but we have no indication that there was ever a romance or love going on between them - even if Harwin was the father of the children, he may have just been convenient for that job, being around Rhaenyra all the time, anyway. There is no indication she ever had deeper feelings for that man. Nobody ever says Rhaenyra 'was more than fond' of Harwin Strong.

And the fact that Rhaenyra seems to have turned to Laena for a close companion in the years leading up to 120 AC as well as the fact that Rhaenyra turned to Daemon after the death of Laena also indicates that she didn't care much about Harwin - she never grieved for either him or Laenor.

No, Rhaenyra had as many political reasons to marry Daemon as he had to marry her. As I said, this marriage bound both of the Targaryen-Velaryon branches tightly together - with Laenor's widow becoming the new mother of Laena's daughters while Laena's widower became the new father or Laenor's sons -, it ensured Rhaenyra was not forced to remarry outside the family, a man who might not be supporting her succeeding to the Iron Throne.

But, of course, while chances are pretty high that Daemon Targaryen *never* loved his niece and always just viewed her as a means to get closer to the throne - the same way he may have viewed Laena - Rhaenyra Targaryen was very much infatuated with her uncle in her youth. But chances are that those original feelings had somewhat changed by the time of their marriage in 120 AC. Perhaps she still had the hots for him? Perhaps she just viewed him as the only proper consort to sit beside her when she took the Iron Throne? We don't know.

I meant that not a single time was written down that "x secretly fucked y" or "x regularly cheated on her husband with y". Homosexual, or heterosexual relationship, this was never written down. Why should it be in a historybook?

Instead, we've got many suggestions. If the thing you suggest with Rhaenyra and Laena would be a thing, it would've lasted for 3 years, and you're telling me that all our proff for a few years long relationship is that "she grow fond of her"? That's nothing, honestly.

And then there's Harwin. It's a simply dumb suggestion that she had him as a sperm bank, because (if the two ever had sex) they did it even before Rhaenyra's marriage or betrothal to Laenor. He was rather a sexdoll for her than a lover, or the person that simply gives him pleasure in those 'hard times', true, but no way a sperm bank intentionally kept for making children, back when she didn't even know Laenor will be her husband.

Also, her children were 6,5 and 3 years old when Laena died. That means that his thing was likely pretty recent with Ser Harwin, call it anything, when she grow so fond of her. The fact that this growing fond of her was used before too gives me nothing that proves such a thing, considering what I pointed out.

Then again, it is said that Rhaenyra was right there in the moment for Daemon when he lose Laena. That sounds to me like something someone who's in love with him would do. But you might even say that she was trying to benefit from the situation. Given the things we know, I don't think so. 

But no matter how it happened, how do you explain that Rhaenyra started planning (be it love, or hunger of power) right after the death of someone who meant to her somewhat more than a friend?

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I meant that not a single time was written down that "x secretly fucked y" or "x regularly cheated on her husband with y". Homosexual, or heterosexual relationship, this was never written down. Why should it be in a historybook?

Of course not, but if you check the use of 'more than fond' in FaB then the hint that Rhaenyra was in love with Laena is actually more explicit that the idea that Rhaena was a lesbian who actually had a number of affairs and sexual relationships with her favorites.

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Instead, we've got many suggestions. If the thing you suggest with Rhaenyra and Laena would be a thing, it would've lasted for 3 years, and you're telling me that all our proff for a few years long relationship is that "she grow fond of her"? That's nothing, honestly.

That is in part due to the very condensed and superficial account we get on the reign of Viserys I. We do know a lot more about the inner workings of the marriage of Jaehaerys and Alysanne and Baelon and Alyssa and even Alyssa and Rogar than we do know about the inner workings of the marriages and affairs of Rhaenyra.

I mean, thanks to the way things are written we don't even know what Daemon and Rhaenyra were to each other at the beginning of the Dance, nor how they got along with each other's children. There is less detail to that era/people than there is to most characters from the Regency era or the Jaehaerys material.

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And then there's Harwin. It's a simply dumb suggestion that she had him as a sperm bank, because (if the two ever had sex) they did it even before Rhaenyra's marriage or betrothal to Laenor. He was rather a sexdoll for her than a lover, or the person that simply gives him pleasure in those 'hard times', true, but no way a sperm bank intentionally kept for making children, back when she didn't even know Laenor will be her husband.

Actually, the one good anecdote about Rhaenyra-Harwin from Mushroom - the claim that he found them abed together the night after the king forced Rhaenyra into the Laenor marriage - has this happened shortly before her marriage, i.e. definitely after her betrothal was already made.

Anything detailed afterwards is contradictory.

But that one thing would have been Rhaenyra blowing off steam after things with Criston ended.

Chances are pretty good that Harwin was the kind of man Rhaenyra liked - powerfully built, strong, manly (Daemon and Criston Cole fit the same profile, after all) - meaning she may have been attracted to him. But the idea that she was deeply devoted to him is pretty much without basis.

The one man Rhaenyra wanted to marry back in the day was her uncle Daemon - Cole was most likely rejected by her and Harwin Strong - who asked for her hand - had to content himself being a secret paramour (if anything happened) because Rhaenyra loved the Iron Throne more than any man.

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Then again, it is said that Rhaenyra was right there in the moment for Daemon when he lose Laena. That sounds to me like something someone who's in love with him would do. But you might even say that she was trying to benefit from the situation. Given the things we know, I don't think so.

Daemon may have been the one wanting to profit from the situation. He was never in love with Rhaenyra as far as we know ... and people speculate that he may have arranged Laenor's murder.

But it is also perfectly in line with Rhaenyra's character since it is basically also what she seems to have done when she broke up with Criston Cole. She immediately jumped to Harwin (at least for one night). In that sense - the idea that Laena's death could have resulted in her jumping right into another sexual relationship sounds exactly like something she would do.

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

But no matter how it happened, how do you explain that Rhaenyra started planning (be it love, or hunger of power) right after the death of someone who meant to her somewhat more than a friend?

That is particularly unrealistic to assume. If we presuppose that Rhaenyra was in love with Laena and they had a very close relationship then chances are not that bad that a dying Laena wanted to take care of Laena's family, possibly even Daemon. It isn't exactly a rare thing that a man or woman take care and even marry a widowed in-law. They can bond over shared grief and bare economic or political necessities.

And in Daemon and Rhaenyra's case you have both the Laena factor as well as Rhaenyra's past infatuation with her uncle and Daemon apparently deflowering her in 111 AC. These two do have a connection.

But even if you ignore all that then these two binding their families closer together is a pretty smart move in any case. Much better than if either remained alone or married somebody from outside the family.

[Daeron the Daring]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, the one good anecdote about Rhaenyra-Harwin from Mushroom - the claim that he found them abed together the night after the king forced Rhaenyra into the Laenor marriage - has this happened shortly before her marriage, i.e. definitely after her betrothal was already made.

The marriage was in 114 AC, and Mushroom found the two in bed at the morning in 113 AC. Tho the betrothal I don't know when exactly was, the marriage surely wasn't done yet. I mean, Ser Harwin came into the picture after what happened with Daemon. We are told that Daemon asked for her hand from Viserys, because noone else would marry her 'this way'. Then she let Ser Harwin into her bed, right after Daemon got banished, and when Rhaenyra wasn't yet betrothed to anyone.

The question of Rhaenyra's future husband came up later, and Viserys finally chose to propose her to Corlys (I mean Laenor).

So no, it's not contradictory what comes afterwards. Their first night 100% happened before her marriage (makes no sense to make children before getting married), and as fair as I see, before the betrothal too. Also, Rhaenyra at that point was in a mentally pretty damaged phase of her life (bc of Daemon, Ser Criston, and whatever else happened back then).

On the other hand, you just don't keep a sperm bank for 6 years. This whole 'she had him only for his seed' is bullshit, hope you'll see it now. You're also complaining how it surely wasn't love form Rhaenyra's side, and I totally agree with you, just as before (I tought it's clear from what I replied).

And  I am writing down again what I wrote down earlier: It's written down in F&B that Rhaenyra approached Daemon right after Laena's death. And I mean right after.

And then there's also the fact that Daemon had no son, but two daughters, one of them married to Rhaenyra's heir, the other one to Laenor's. How would she benefit from marrying Daemon, if Daemon already was on her side (at least trough the betrothals of his daughters)? And why would she let Daemon, a monster, who she know well, if not for love? And also, Daemon would only benefit from this if he'll get direct control over the IT trough her (and we really didn't see that happening during the Dance...he wasn't really more than her closest advisor). Otherwise, his descendants would be quenns and kings anyway.