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More Dragon Casting Announced

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Sigella said:

5. Not sure the Summer Isles nobility would carry the same prestige as nobility of Lys or Volantis, or even Qaarth. Jallabhar Xho was royalty but not very well respected.

Xho was a beggar king like Viserys, plus if I remember correctly, he was a prince of an island in the Summer Isles, not the entire nation. He was a royal nobody, I don't his race or the fact he was a Summer Islander hand anything to do it. 

Edited by Sotan

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54 minutes ago, Sotan said:

Xho was a beggar king like Viserys, plus if I remember correctly, he was a prince of an island in the Summer Isles, not the entire nation. He was a royal nobody, I don't his race or the fact he was a Summer Islander hand anything to do it. 

You're right :) I didn't consider the "beggar" aspect in my reasoning.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sigella said:

This isn't so, though. Not one single character fails to notice summer islanders/dothraki/naathi/valyrian/dornish-rhoynish/qaartheen exact shade of pigment.

If valyrian traditions hadn't be necessary for magic they'd be overtly racist in "keeping the blood of the dragon pure". Through the entire story we're told hold highly valyrian looks are valued. Compare with Ibbaneese (I know they're not POC but they are their own race with traits people look down their noses at, which is racist every bit as much as the positive racism Danys recieves for her genetic make up). And note princess Daella getting so freaked out by the appaerance of an summer islander that she run away weeping thinking him a ghost, which doesn't say much for the diversity of Kings Landing.

I'm not saying this is a racist story but only that this story has racism in it, its part of the realism. 

I think you and Lord Varys are both right. On the one hand Westeros is kind of racist, but a different kind of prejudice born of ignorance/superstition of the other, different from our modern form of racism. On the other hand a eWsterosi noble can marry foreign royalty/nobility and that itself isn't the problem, but the spouses do face prejudice (Lara Rogarre and Lady Darklyn) for being different, their children are almost always accepted. Unless the children look different, case in point Baelor Breakspear-the very image of a noble knight, his Dornish coloring was constantly brought up as a negative by his detractors.

The more I think about it, I'm convinced that's the route they are going with this Corlys casting. Why make Corlys black of all the characters if you didn't want to explore this aspect of Westerosi society? Rhaenyra's sons alleged bastardy, Rhaenyra herself as a woman wanting to her rule in her own right and her heir looking not Westerosi- all work to make her and her line unfit for the IT-at least according to the Greens. I could be completely wrong here, but I feel this specific casting choice is pushing me to go there. I guess we'll find out once they cast The Strongs and the Velaryon siblings. 

Edit: If the boys are mixed race and could plausibly be Corlys' grandsons, it explains why Corlys and Rhaenys are all in for Rhaenyra, instead of the unexplained weirdness we got in F&B.

Edited by Sotan

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sotan said:

I think you and Lord Varys are both right. On the one hand Westeros is kind of racist, but a different kind of prejudice born of ignorance/superstition of the other, different from our modern form of racism. On the other hand a eWsterosi noble can marry foreign royalty/nobility and that itself isn't the problem, but the spouses do face prejudice (Lara Rogarre and Lady Darklyn) for being different, their children are almost always accepted. Unless the children look different, case in point Baelor Breakspear-the very image of a noble knight, his Dornish coloring was constantly brought up as a negative by his detractors.

The more I think about it, I'm convinced that's the route they are going with this Corlys casting. Why make Corlys black of all the characters if you didn't want to explore this aspect of Westerosi society? Rhaenyra's sons alleged bastardy, Rhaenyra herself as a woman wanting to her rule in her own right and her heir looking not Westerosi- all work to make her and her line unfit for the IT-at least according to the Greens. I could be completely wrong here, but I feel this specific casting choice is pushing me to go there. I guess we'll find out once they cast The Strongs and the Velaryon siblings. 

Edit: If the boys are mixed race and could plausibly be Corlys' grandsons, it explains why Corlys and Rhaenys are all in for Rhaenyra, instead of the unexplained weirdness we got in F&B.

It is explained, Rhaenyra's first three children are bastards and Corlys glanced over it for his ambition, though he didn't want for Rhaenyra's children to inherit Driftmark but other "Laenor's bastards" it is also telling they betrothed children of Rhaenyra/"Laenor" and Laena/Daemon  - even though Rhaenyra/Daemon got married which is overkill in terms of alliance - which effectively prevented Lucerys taking Lord Baratheon's daughter and secure alliance.

Quote

Lord Corlys was an ambitious man. During his nine voyages on the Sea Snake he was forever wanting to press onward, to go where none had gone before and see what lay beyond the maps. Though he had accomplished much and more in life, he was seldom satisfied, the men who knew him best would say. In Rhaenys Targaryen, daughter of the Old King’s eldest son and heir, he had found his perfect match, a woman as spirited and beautiful and proud as any in the realm, and a dragonrider as well. His sons and daughters would soar through the skies, Lord Corlys expected, and one day one of them would sit the Iron Throne

 

Edited by Eltharion21

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6 hours ago, Ran said:

Re: Salladhor Saan on the show,

The idea that the writers came up with (per Bryan Cogman) was that he was a Summer Islander by birth who had made Lys his home. This is why his accent, and that of Xaro Xhoan Daxos on the show (who was explicitly said to have had a Summer Isles origin on the show), were so similar. So there was an attempt at an explanation which worked all right (other than the fact that they never bothered making it explicit) given that nothing turned on Salladhor Saan being a native Lyseni or of Valyrian descent. 

Yes, I know that this is what they did in both cases ... I just find it not a very good idea to invent Summer Islanders when there are actual Summer Islanders in the story who are cut. George's Salla and George's Xaro are both distinct and interesting characters who were in no need to be reinvented. Xaro is very elitist Qartheen whose best lines give away that he is a very eloquent slavery apologist - and he is one of the few gay people in the story. And Salla is from a very prominent Lysene family with Valyrian roots ... something he really can no longer be in the show with this changed background. That said - with them it worked much better if they had reinvented another character as a Summer Islander.

Cogman came up with a lot of in-universe explanations for pointless inconsistencies - like Jaime explaining how he backstabbed Aerys while also cutting his throat or having Barristan explain why he didn't sit on the Small Council (both of which could have been avoided if the writers had actually not changed those things) - but that's not something you have to find great.

I think they also *explained* how it is that Talisa Maegyr is a Volantene noblewoman of the Old Blood with black hair and dark eyes ... when the best way to do that would have been to simply turn this character into anybody but a Volantene noblewoman of the Old Blood.

8 hours ago, Sigella said:

2. It is important for the war, its the reason given for originating and escalating feud/war. Aemon calls them Strongs and loses an eye, he gets sour and kills Jace, which causes the Blood and Cheese murder. I’m confident it will matter.

Yes, on the personal level the paternity of the children is an issue. But effectively the children's quarrel could be about anything - things could also escalate over the question who the rightful heir is, say: the mother of the boys, or Aemond's elder brother - the crucial point there is that Aemond loses his eye. That is what deepens the rift between the two factions.

8 hours ago, Sigella said:

3. I’m not so sure. The Red Wedding wasn’t done because Robb broke his marriage-pact but it that was what Frey used to justify it with. Same should be true of legitimacy, in this social structure it is much worse to be a bastard than a woman. Bastards are thought to be morally defective.

There is no proof of bastardy there and nobody wants to crown Rhaenyra's sons at this point. It is about whether she or Aegon should rule, not their respective heirs.

8 hours ago, Sigella said:

4. Not sure here either. They could choose to disregard earlier marriages or let the house-traits-magic resolve it.

Yes, they could do that, but that would necessitate further changes. And I really see no reason to reinvent the Valyrians as a more diverse people. At least not the inbreeding ruling class. Mind you, we can all imagine that foreign nobility from all over the world intermarried with some dragonlord houses for political reasons at times (after all, we do know that a YiTish emperor had a dragonlord wife, so a member of the Imperial family of Yi Ti could have also intermarried with a dragonlord family) and, yes, their incest practices would have then likely preserved the looks the bloodline acquired in that fashion. But the Valyrians as such are those pale-skinned, fair-haired pricks with the weirdo eyes George invented. That's what Valyrians look like ... and not just the elite but most of the native Valyrians as well. Although the city of Valyria must have been very diverse since half the world must have migrated there, visited, established trade contacts, etc.

8 hours ago, Sigella said:

5. Not sure the Summer Isles nobility would carry the same prestige as nobility of Lys or Volantis, or even Qaarth. Jallabhar Xho was royalty but not very well respected.

That is actually not the case. Xho is as much a dignitary as anybody else at the royal court. And we are talking about Corlys' father - who wasn't a lord in his own right nor were the Velaryons already as famous or wealthy as they were after Corlys - marrying a foreign noblewoman. That is easily imaginable. Even more so since the Velaryons have always been merchant lords and it was custom for them to actually use the ships they owned. They were getting around. Thus the idea that Corlys' grandfather Daemon would marry his heir to a rich Summer Islander isn't far-fetched at all. For one, because it could help deepen already established trade relations ... but also much more: The Summer Isle are one of the high cultures in Martinworld - they know more about the seas of the world than any other nation, definitely much more than the Westerosi, they invented the fastest ships, and they have super bows. It could have helped the Velaryons to open trade relations with peoples they didn't even know existed so far. And we don't know all the nine voyages of Corlys so far. One of them could have been about exploring the unknown south - follow the coast of western Sothoryos as far down as he could ... or just do explore the waters of the Summer Sea south of the Summer Isles. For something like that the knowledge of the Summer Islanders would be key.

If you think about it then the idea that Corlys had a Summer Islander mother could even help explain his success as a explorer since his mother could have taught him some of the shipbuilding techniques of the Summer Isles, allowing him to build both the Ice Wolf and the Sea Snake. With them also preparing a Corlys Velaryon show about the Nine Voyages I'm reasonably confident that connecting Corlys Velaryon to the Summer Islanders is actually not accident.

Finally, if Aegon IV can have a paramour with Summer Islander/Braavosi roots - and if Braavosi nobility has no issue intermarrying with Summer Islander nobility (and Bellegere Otherys is the offspring of such a union) then this should also be true for Westerosi nobility ... especially those involving themselves in trade.

The idea that, say, a Tully ends up with a Summer Islander bride isn't all that likely ... but merchant lords like the Velaryons, Hightowers, Redwynes, Lannisters of Lannisport, even some Ironborn certainly could end up with 'exotic spouses from across the Narrow Sea or farther away. We see that kind of thing happening with Serala of Myr marrying Lord Denys Darklyn or Taena of Myr marrying Orton Merryweather (although the latter happening during Orton's exile).

8 hours ago, Sigella said:

Summer Isles is much more culturally different, being way too cool about free sex to be accepted or respected imo. But then showmakers might just disregard this too.

See above. The sex thing is just one of their traits. The more important traits are actually their skills as shipbuilders and seafarers. And their superior weaponry. Goldenheart bows are second only to dragonbone bows. And those are exceedingly rare, apparently.

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

If valyrian traditions hadn't be necessary for magic they'd be overtly racist in "keeping the blood of the dragon pure". Through the entire story we're told hold highly valyrian looks are valued. Compare with Ibbaneese (I know they're not POC but they are their own race with traits people look down their noses at, which is racist every bit as much as the positive racism Danys recieves for her genetic make up). And note princess Daella getting so freaked out by the appaerance of an summer islander that she run away weeping thinking him a ghost, which doesn't say much for the diversity of Kings Landing.

I'm not saying this is a racist story but only that this story has racism in it, its part of the realism. 

The overall issue there is that in a world like Westeros 'racism' is an elitist thing. Nobility/royalty do not intermingle or intermarry with 'lesser people' ... the Valyrians/Targaryens are just the most extreme followers of that ideology. A Stark or Lannister would never marry the daughter of a peasant to his heir, never mind how great they looked.

In such a setting foreign royalty/nobility is actually viewed as (roughly) equal to your own, depending their general status. If Corlys' mother was the daughter of a powerful Summer Islander prince(ss) then she would actually be of equal or higher societal rank as Corlys' father who wasn't sovereign prince nor necessarily as wealthy.

The idea that people constitute a people based on looks, common ancestry, etc. is a much more modern idea.

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12 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

It is explained, Rhaenyra's first three children are bastards and Corlys glanced over it for his ambition

That's not the impression I got. For Rhaenys to die for kids who are not her grandchildren and Driftmark to be inherited by bastards? 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/21/2021 at 1:08 PM, Sigella said:

I don't think they will. Recasting actors from GoT (especially main cast) will ruin the fantasy; that this is same Westeros but a hundred years earlier (can't very well have the Imp turned fool or Arya playing Nettles, because the characters are already similar to begin with), it will be more costly than actors who haven't made it big yet and serve to remind the viewer of GoT and invite constant comparisons. I can't imagine anything beyond the odd cameo tbh.

 

OK.

On 4/21/2021 at 1:08 PM, Sigella said:

Imagine them CGI the dude that played Tormund into Mushroom and the let him rant about his member :rofl:

lmao

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no proof of bastardy there and nobody wants to crown Rhaenyra's sons at this point. It is about whether she or Aegon should rule, not their respective heirs.

 

The legitmacy of Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey is one of the reasons that the Greens use to justify rebelling against their lawful queen. It's like "Rhaenyra is a wanton and they will turn the Red Keep into a brothel yadada, but Aegon being super unfaithful is A OK". 

 

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

See above. The sex thing is just one of their traits. The more important traits are actually their skills as shipbuilders and seafarers. And their superior weaponry. Goldenheart bows are second only to dragonbone bows. And those are exceedingly rare, apparently.

 

Apparently Summer Islanders aren't allowed to export goldenheart wood according to WoIaF. So how do Jaime have lances of goldenheart and how does Jalabhar Xho get his hands on a bow for Joffrey?

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4 minutes ago, Sotan said:

That's not the impression I got. For Rhaenys to die for kids who are not her grandchildren and Driftmark to be inherited by bastards? 

She is in the same package with Corlys as the crown was more important than truth, their struggle for claim was generational.

To Jahaerys when he named Baelon for heir when his brother died:

Quote

Some dissented. Rhaenys herself was the first to raise objection. “You would rob my son of his birthright,” she told the king, with a hand upon her swollen belly. Her husband, Corlys Velaryon, was so wroth that he gave up his admiralty and his place on the small council and took his wife back to Driftmark. Lady Jocelyn of House Baratheon, Rhaenys’s mother, was also angered, as was her formidable brother, Boremund, Lord of Storm’s End.

Quote

 The claims of Princess Rhaenys and her daughter, Laena Velaryon, were put forward once again…and even if they were to be passed over on account of their sex, Rhaenys’s son, Laenor, faced no such impediment. Laenor Velaryon was male, and could claim descent from Jaehaerys’s elder son, whilst Baelon’s boys were descended from the younger.

Quote

Reports had reached the court that Corlys Velaryon was massing ships and men on Driftmark to “defend the rights” of his son, Laenor, whilst Daemon Targaryen, a hot-tempered and quarrelsome young man of twenty, had gathered his own band of sworn swords in support of his brother, Viserys. A violent struggle for succession was likely no matter who the Old King named to succeed him. 

Quote

Unsurprisingly, the Sea Snake was bitterly disappointed when Prince Aemon died and King Jaehaerys bypassed Aemon’s daughter, Rhaenys, in favor of his brother, Baelon the Spring Prince. But now, it seemed, the wheel had turned again, and the wrong could be righted. Thus did Lord Corlys and his wife, the Princess Rhaenys, arrive at Harrenhal in high state, using the wealth and influence of House Velaryon to persuade the lords assembled that their son, Laenor, should be recognized as heir to the Iron Throne.

Quote

His Grace thanked the lords for their service and gratefully conferred the style Prince of Dragonstone upon his grandson Viserys. Storm’s End and Driftmark accepted the decision, if grudgingly; the vote had been so overwhelming that even Laenor’s father and mother saw that they could not hope to prevail.

After all that bother and striving for the crown,  I doubt either Corlys and Rhaenys would acknowledge: "yes our son is homosexual and those are not his kids but bastards", which would damage their public image and legacy indefinetly.

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1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:
The legitmacy of Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey is one of the reasons that the Greens use to justify rebelling against their lawful queen. It's like "Rhaenyra is a wanton and they will turn the Red Keep into a brothel yadada, but Aegon being super unfaithful is A OK". 

It is one thing they mention, but only in the Green Council. Nobody indicates he declared for Aegon II because of the question of Rhaenyra's sons ... nor did anyone leave the Black camp because of them.

It is a secondary or tertiary thing after their main reason that a woman should not rule at all as per the Great Council and especially not come before a trueborn son.

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:
Apparently Summer Islanders aren't allowed to export goldenheart wood according to WoIaF. So how do Jaime have lances of goldenheart and how does Jalabhar Xho get his hands on a bow for Joffrey?

Obviously because goldenheart is still exported in smaller quantities ... and people with connections to Summer Islanders get it. The Golden Company also has a hundred archers with goldenheart bows due to the fact that the commander of the archers is a Summer Islander.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Obviously because goldenheart is still exported in smaller quantities ... and people with connections to Summer Islanders get it. The Golden Company also has a hundred archers with goldenheart bows due to the fact that the commander of the archers is a Summer Islander.

But export is still banned. 

 

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is one thing they mention, but only in the Green Council. Nobody indicates he declared for Aegon II because of the question of Rhaenyra's sons ... nor did anyone leave the Black camp because of them.

 

True...

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I have to say that I think there's a good chance that Mushroom won't even be on the show, possibly for concerns they'd look like they were repeating themselves (for all that Mushroom and Tyrion are radically different characters).

If they were to have Mushroom on the show, Jordan Prentice from In Bruges (whom I believe was an alternate choice for Tyrion if Dinklage passed) would be a reasonable choice.

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34 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I have to say that I think there's a good chance that Mushroom won't even be on the show, possibly for concerns they'd look like they were repeating themselves (for all that Mushroom and Tyrion are radically different characters).

If they were to have Mushroom on the show, Jordan Prentice from In Bruges (whom I believe was an alternate choice for Tyrion if Dinklage passed) would be a reasonable choice.

Mushroom would only make sense if they were going with conflicting historical sources. If they were to drop that concept - which is likely - then there would be really no point for him.

And the risk of repeating concepts is very high, anyway. A faithful adaptation of Rhaenyra would turn her pretty much into the same nutcase woman Daenerys was in the show, if they went with the plot about the parentage of her children it would be a clichéd repetition of the Cersei plot in the main series ... right down to the name Joffrey.

They do have to take care to not make this show into GoT 2.0. Especially since the outline is effectively more of the same, anyway. The Dance of the Dragons is the War of the Five Kings with less complexity and more dragons. That's it.

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34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Mushroom would only make sense if they were going with conflicting historical sources. If they were to drop that concept - which is likely - then there would be really no point for him.

And the risk of repeating concepts is very high, anyway. A faithful adaptation of Rhaenyra would turn her pretty much into the same nutcase woman Daenerys was in the show, if they went with the plot about the parentage of her children it would be a clichéd repetition of the Cersei plot in the main series ... right down to the name Joffrey.

They do have to take care to not make this show into GoT 2.0. Especially since the outline is effectively more of the same, anyway. The Dance of the Dragons is the War of the Five Kings with less complexity and more dragons. That's it.

Besides coming up with the disastrous dragonseed should be riders idea, what does Mushroom actually do?

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Sotan said:

Besides coming up with the disastrous dragonseed should be riders idea, what does Mushroom actually do?

And that's something he allegedly did - it's not all that likely, anyway, since the possibility to search for riders for the riderless dragons first comes up during the first Black Council. They don't follow up on that immediately, but it is not that difficult to come up with the idea to offer rewards to people who master the riderless dragons.

I guess there is a chance they could use him for comic relief and stuff ... but it would most likely be mostly distasteful jokes.

Edited by Lord Varys

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And that's something he allegedly did - it's not all that likely, anyway, since the possibility to search for riders for the riderless dragons first comes up during the first Black Council. They don't follow up on that immediately, but it is not that difficult to come up with the idea to offer rewards to people who master the riderless dragons.

I guess there is a chance they could use him for comic relief and stuff ... but it would most likely be mostly distasteful jokes.

I'm not completely dismissing his character, his takes on events started to become annoying as the story unfolded. They could write him as a bawdy fool in public, but an intelligent political schemer in private. That would be funny actually, unlike Tyrion, Mushroom leans into the dwarf stereotype because it protects him, while Tyrion was always fighting against it because of his pride and status as a Lannister. Mushroom could showcase what life is like for a non noble dwarf. I've convinced myself he should be part of the cast. LMAO. 

Edited by Sotan

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sotan said:

Besides coming up with the disastrous dragonseed should be riders idea, what does Mushroom actually do?

"My faithful Mushroom. Would that all men were as true as you. I should take you for my Hand". He served as Hand of the King , :) . 

17 minutes ago, Sotan said:

I'm not completely dismissing his character, his takes on events started to become annoying as the story unfolded. They could write him as a bawdy fool in public, but an intelligent political schemer in private. That would be funny actually, unlike Tyrion, Mushroom leans into the dwarf stereotype because it protects him, while Tyrion was always fighting against it because of his pride and status as a Lannister. Mushroom could showcase what life is like for a non noble dwarf. I've convinced myself he should be part of the cast. LMAO. 

I think his comments provided good comic relief in a ghastly business. Though, to be honest, somehow the chapters about the reign of King Jaehaerys I Targaryen were more interesting than the Dance chapters. Very odd. 

 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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8 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The idea that Westeros isn't racist because it is obsessed with class is ridiculous. Westeros is clearly both.

The idea is that we do have a more primitive racism - one where a different class effectively does constitute a different race.

The justification for this is that noble/royal/magical blood is better than 'common blood' and you do not only avoid marrying commoners because they have no money but because they fundamentally *different* from you as nobility/royalty on a *biological* level. In the sense that they birth sets them completely apart from the rabble, basically.

Historically, this is one of the roots of racism since aristocratic exceptionalism was just transferred from royalty and nobility to the people(s) they ruled when they got more and more say in how things were done.

One crucial point of (institutionalized) racism is 'to preserve the purity of a bloodline/people' - and that is exactly what (arranged) aristocratic marriages do. It is also rather obvious that one reason why the Targaryens are disliked by a considerable portion of the fandom is that their marriage policies hammer home the fact that they are 'better' than the other nobles, being basically racist in their interactions with the high nobility and so forth (a very good example for this would be the manner in which Aerys II rejected the Rhaegar-Cersei match).

But the nobility does this only in less exclusive manner - by marrying outside the family but only within the noble gene pool. And while Cersei is basically dismissed by Aerys II in a racist manner, Kevan dismissed a Westerling girl in the same manner - because they were effectively 'tainted' by their Spicer marriage.

In Westeros the deciding factor what are suitable marriages are not skin color or eye color or hair color ... but your nobility by virtue of birth. That is the most important criterion. Wealth and fame, etc. also figure into it but they are secondary criteria.

The idea that the noble class of Westeros would look down on a fellow noble because he married a highborn foreigner of equal rank is just not very likely.

If this was the case we would have more modern racist concepts and clear race-based conflicts (Andals vs. First Men, say), not to mention that it would most likely have been impossible for a foreign dynasty like the Targaryens to conquer and unite that continent - that only works when you don't have a big problem that your king/ruler is a foreigner.

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I agree Lord Varys, Westeros does have a primitive form of racism, not our modern day version of it, and manifests itself differently as you laid out. Its a complex issue in universe, but the example of Baelor Breakspear leads me to believe that if Rhaenyra's sons are visibly non-white, it will be something that the Greens can possibly exploit. We'll have some idea the once Velaryon siblings and The Strongs specifically are cast. 

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