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More Dragon Casting Announced

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2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Imagine what will people think when they'll find out that Corlys was supposed to be valyrian looking, and the showrunners made him a black character so they'll be PC enough.

Worth reiterating - again - that this change was certainly made with GRRM's knowledge and assent. In fact, given the nature of the casting, I'm even wondering if Corlys was his suggestion for a character they could change without it being as much of a problem as other characters (i.e. you can't suddenly change the ethnicity of the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns, Tullys or Tyrells), and they already conceived of a way of making that work with regard to the kids. Or if they even bother including that plot point.

GRRM's a fan of historical parallels and repetition, but to a TV audience having a storyline very close to the Lannister/Baratheon one from GoT might feel too repetitive.

It also makes me wonder if they'll even have Mushroom in the show. In the books it works, but to a general TV audience having a second Westeros show with a smart-arse, wisecracking dwarf who's more than he appears, that might also seem redundant.

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3 hours ago, Werthead said:

Worth reiterating - again - that this change was certainly made with GRRM's knowledge and assent. In fact, given the nature of the casting, I'm even wondering if Corlys was his suggestion for a character they could change without it being as much of a problem as other characters (i.e. you can't suddenly change the ethnicity of the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns, Tullys or Tyrells), and they already conceived of a way of making that work with regard to the kids. Or if they even bother including that plot point.

I said the same thing in the other casting thread. To me this seem like something GRRM would pull, he considers the original show to be like a parallel universe of the books, I can see him playing around with it to explore options he can't in the books. 

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Unless they make Corlys the founder of House Velaryon or make House Velaryon historically Black, it doesn't radically change anything long term if Laenor and/or Laena are mixed, or Rhaenyra's eldest are mixed, or Baela and/or Rhaena are mixed, or Addam and/or Alyn are mixed. 

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9 hours ago, Werthead said:

Worth reiterating - again - that this change was certainly made with GRRM's knowledge and assent.

Says who? You?

He's been complaining about innacuracy all the time when GoT was running.

But that's not even what I meant. I meant that the people watching this will not like that Corlys was changed to a black person when he was supposed to be valyrian looking.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Says who? You?

No, said GRRM and one of the writers on House of the Dragon when I spent some time with them during TitanCon 2019 (which was entertaining, though also slightly frustrating as I knew the show would be about the Dance many months before that was confirmed, so had to sit on that info). GRRM noted that he wouldn't be writing scripts and as intimately involved day-to-day as he was at the start of the GoT process, but he would still be paying close attention to the project and approving things.

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It wouldn't surprise me one bit if George had suggested this Corlys change. There are no Velaryons in GoT, and family trees can be changed, assuming the show ever gets to the marriage of Alyn and Baela and Aegon III and Daenaera.

15 hours ago, Werthead said:

It also makes me wonder if they'll even have Mushroom in the show. In the books it works, but to a general TV audience having a second Westeros show with a smart-arse, wisecracking dwarf who's more than he appears, that might also seem redundant.

Honestly, I don't think Mushroom and Eustace are needed in HoD - unless they were to use a radical concept presenting the events in the show as part of a historical reconstruction. Then we could even get some or all of the different versions of the events giving by the different sources.

I don't think they will do that, but it is certainly something they could consider.

Does anybody think such a take on things could be fun or work?

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

No, said GRRM and one of the writers on House of the Dragon when I spent some time with them during TitanCon 2019 (which was entertaining, though also slightly frustrating as I knew the show would be about the Dance many months before that was confirmed, so had to sit on that info). GRRM noted that he wouldn't be writing scripts and as intimately involved day-to-day as he was at the start of the GoT process, but he would still be paying close attention to the project and approving things.

I again didn't refer to this, but I asked how do you know GRRM wanted it, or had to agree on this change? So far, as I know he sold the rights of his books to HBO, means that they can portray his work the way they want, and they can cast whoever they want, and GRRM is even less involved in HotD than he was in GoT. He surely is an advisor there, but I imagine he does not decide anything significant. Also, one can imagine how much better it sounds that the writer is actually part of the team, and they won't end up with this as they did with GoT. But that's just me, of course, but I am still waiting for you to explain me how does this or anything else he said before confirms that he actually wants a different version of his creation, and not the potentially most accurate one.

Also, what I imagine he's playing a big part in is filling those plotholes.

 

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Says who? You?

He's been complaining about innacuracy all the time when GoT was running.

But that's not even what I meant. I meant that the people watching this will not like that Corlys was changed to a black person when he was supposed to be valyrian looking.

Majority of the viewers don't know what a Valyrian is. Only book readers, and hard core fans will know, or really care tbh. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Does anybody think such a take on things could be fun or work?

It sounds like a narrative nightmare. It worked on the page, but on screen I personally wouldn't like it. 

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

No, said GRRM and one of the writers on House of the Dragon when I spent some time with them during TitanCon 2019 (which was entertaining, though also slightly frustrating as I knew the show would be about the Dance many months before that was confirmed, so had to sit on that info). GRRM noted that he wouldn't be writing scripts and as intimately involved day-to-day as he was at the start of the GoT process, but he would still be paying close attention to the project and approving things.

Holy shit thats crazy! Imagine all this time people were speculating on a show about the conquest and you knew all along! LMAO

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19 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I again didn't refer to this, but I asked how do you know GRRM wanted it, or had to agree on this change? So far, as I know he sold the rights of his books to HBO, means that they can portray his work the way they want, and they can cast whoever they want, and GRRM is even less involved in HotD than he was in GoT. He surely is an advisor there, but I imagine he does not decide anything significant. Also, one can imagine how much better it sounds that the writer is actually part of the team, and they won't end up with this as they did with GoT. But that's just me, of course, but I am still waiting for you to explain me how does this or anything else he said before confirms that he actually wants a different version of his creation, and not the potentially most accurate one.

George is involved in this project in a relatively close way, perhaps not as close as on GoT in 2008-13, but far more closely than in GoT in 2014-19. One of his closest associates and key assistants is writing directly for the show and providing feedback. He and Ryan Condal and Miguel Sapochnik are in regular consultation on the development of the project, which I gather he was not with Benioff and Weiss towards the end of GoT.

George also has key approval authority in areas of the project, like he did on GoT, where he did get involved in casting. On the mothership show he deliberately made a choice to retreat from being involved as closely after the 2013 story conference where B&W made it clear they would be taking the show in a somewhat different direction to what he'd envisaged and also because he needed to focus more on the books. On HotD this issue has not arisen because the story is complete and the material is there for them to adapt, so the butterfly effect, the parallel universe versions of the stories and other issues he had with GoT that led to him scaling back his involvement have not arisen on this project. Maybe if they go four or five seasons, that problem will arise again and he'll step back again to focus on (hopefully by then) ADoS.

If GRRM comes out with a blog post complaining and saying he didn't have anything to do with casting approval or any say in these decisions, that would be another matter, but that runs counter to everything we know about the project and his involvement in it.

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5 minutes ago, Sotan said:

Majority of the viewers don't know what a Valyrian is. Only book readers, and hard core fans will know, or really care tbh. 

I mean, I've seen some IG posts about the casting and how people did react about Corlys being portrayed as black. These people know next to nothing about the books, but the majority doesn't like it.

You can imagine there will be fans of this show, and at some point this whole thing being mentioned in the news. I mean I'm hungarian, and hungarian news are still making a post about a GoT actor getting out to the street during the pandemic. If HotD will be popular, one can imagine this thing popping up in the news and making some trouble. If not, I'll expect the show to end after season 1, because it's not a liw-budget project.

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It's not that hard to sit on things one knows about when they're not yours to share, so to speak. 

I think an earlier remark, about the fact that HBO could very well say, okay, but we do need more diversity in casting... it's all well and good to say GRRM assents, but one never knows what choices he would make if he were the sole person to make decisions. But he's not the sole person on HotD, by any means. There's two show runners, and they're all working for HBO in the end. 

George has different feelings about HotD than he does about ASoIaF, I think, the result of his experiences on GoT and that it's less near-and-dear to him.

 

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1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I mean, I've seen some IG posts about the casting and how people did react about Corlys being portrayed as black. These people know next to nothing about the books, but the majority doesn't like it.

You can imagine there will be fans of this show, and at some point this whole thing being mentioned in the news. I mean I'm hungarian, and hungarian news are still making a post about a GoT actor getting out to the street during the pandemic. If HotD will be popular, one can imagine this thing popping up in the news and making some trouble. If not, I'll expect the show to end after season 1, because it's not a liw-budget project.

I'm in Canada and talked to a few friends who were fans of the show about HOTD, only 1 knew what a Valyrian is supposed to look like, the rest gave me blank looks. I bet most viewers who are not familiar with the lore just go with it. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

If GRRM comes out with a blog post complaining and saying he didn't have anything to do with casting approval or any say in these decisions, that would be another matter, but that runs counter to everything we know about the project and his involvement in it.

The problem is, again that we don't know in which part George is involved, or he decided Corlys to be black, or that it wasn't an instruction from above to make significant characters black. He is not in the seat of the showrunners, he's an advisor, and has no right to veto any instruction that comes from above. He does not decide such things, and that's it.

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4 minutes ago, Sotan said:

I'm in Canada and talked to a few friends who were fans of the show about HOTD, only 1 knew what a Valyrian is supposed to look like, the rest gave me blank looks. I bet most viewers who are not familiar with the lore just go with it. 

 

 

Yes, but this show will eventually focus on hoe a Valyrian is supposed to look like (tho a valyrian isn't supposed to have the valyrian traits, it's not even about how a Valyrian is supposed to look like, but how Corlys is supposed to look like).

And don't forget that many hardcore fans didn't even knew Daenerys' real name isn't khaalesi and many tought for a long time and still think that the Targaryens are the only one with silver hair (I mean, watching the show I tought the same, unless I read the books and got into the lore). The valyrians aren't even established as a race in GoT, man.

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6 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The problem is, again that we don't know in which part George is involved, or he decided Corlys to be black, or that it wasn't an instruction from above to make significant characters black. He is not in the seat of the showrunners, he's an advisor, and has no right to veto any instruction that comes from above. He does not decide such things, and that's it.

He's an executive producer, HBO required his permission to make the show and they needed to make a new deal with him to do it. Suggesting that he has no power and is just an advisor is grossly misrepresenting the situation.

He's choosing not to be as involved as he was on early GoT, but he's still more involved than he was at the end, and still has a say in production choices (if you think he'd do an "here's the rights, thanks for my cheque, do what you want with it," approach, you don't know George very well).

I suspect he'll make a blog post in the future more on the subject of HotD and we'll get more of his thoughts at that point.

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2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Yes, but this show will eventually focus on hoe a Valyrian is supposed to look like (tho a valyrian isn't supposed to have the valyrian traits, it's not even about how a Valyrian is supposed to look like, but how Corlys is supposed to look like).

And don't forget that many hardcore fans didn't even knew Daenerys' real name isn't khaalesi and many tought for a long time and still think that the Targaryens are the only one with silver hair (I mean, watching the show I tought the same, unless I read the books and got into the lore). The valyrians aren't even established as a race in GoT, man.

Which makes my point. Most of the audience won't know, or care for the most part. HOTD won't just be explaining what a Valyrian is (in the show universe), but defining for audience who they are and what they're about.  

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2 minutes ago, Werthead said:

He's choosing not to be as involved as he was on early GoT, but he's still more involved than he was at the end, and still has a say in production choices (if you think he'd do an "here's the rights, thanks for my cheque, do what you want with it," approach, you don't know George very well).

I was surprised to hear his involvement at all considering what went down with GOT, then I read HOTD was the show GRRM and Condal pitched to HBO. So George is in this. 

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1 minute ago, Sotan said:

Which makes my point. Most of the audience won't know, or care for the most part. HOTD won't just be explaining what a Valyrian is (in the show universe), but defining for audience who they are and what they're about.  

But that won't be the case in HoTD. I mean, in GoT there were like 2 dialogs about the Doom, about the Conquest and how Daenerys is the last Targaryen (which most people interpreted as being the last Valyrian too).

This time people will learn about entire cities filled with valyrian-looking people, and another significant valyrian house, the Velaryons. Are you trying to tell me that it is the right way to portray the second valyrian house the fans will get to know as black people? I'm sure it's not. And I'm sure the showrunners know how D&D fucked GoT up, and they don't want to get into the same trap.

Corlys being black is just simply the result of 2020, and how Hollywood got influenced by that dark year. 

If someone would post out that he wants to see white people as enslaved africans in America people would call him mad. Or that he wants a white man to play Black Panther, or a chief of an african tribe. It's just about respecting cultural differences to me. I don't want to see only white people in the cinema, and I don't want to see white people playing such roles I mentioned above, as I don't want black people to play characters that are essentially white. 

I think IGN Hungary (simply the hungarian version of IGN) answered this question pretty well, pointing out that it ruins the experience for many people. This surely does it to me. Of course this doesn't ruin it to most people by now, but as I said, once this thing will be widely known, and 7-8 out of 10 people doesn't like the direction HBO is taking with HotD and Corlys' casting, and these people hsven't read the books, but know a little bit about the lore.

And as you pointed out, it'll be about getting to know the valyrians. How will they get to know them, once they're not portrayed as one? And don't get me wrong, it's not the visual traits that make you valyrian, but that's not how someone watching it will interpret the whole thing.

 

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