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5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The marriage was in 114 AC, and Mushroom found the two in bed at the morning in 113 AC. Tho the betrothal I don't know when exactly was, the marriage surely wasn't done yet. I mean, Ser Harwin came into the picture after what happened with Daemon. We are told that Daemon asked for her hand from Viserys, because noone else would marry her 'this way'. Then she let Ser Harwin into her bed, right after Daemon got banished, and when Rhaenyra wasn't yet betrothed to anyone.

You are confusing things here. Rhaenyra's fling with Daemon happened in 111 AC, after his temporary return from the Stepstones, Rhaenyra's one night with Harwin was the result of her break-up/whatever with Criston Cole, which took place at the same day as Viserys I forcing his daughter to go through with the Laenor marriage. Meaning they were already betrothed and scheduled to marry when the Harwin thing took place. And we have to take that with a grain of salt since the source in Mushroom - whose account on Rhaenyra-Daemon and Cole being 'as chaste as an old septa' is not exactly all that convincing.

And this whole thing had nothing to do with fathering children but was a way to blow off steam. I'm not saying Rhaenyra had nothing going for Harwin ... just that he was clearly her third choice after her dear uncle and Criston Cole. And in the end only Daemon seems to have been viewed by her as the man worthy of her hand. Definitely not KG Cole, and also not Harwin Strong who was the heir to a great lordship. The man had proposed to her earlier as had other great heirs like the Lannister twins.

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And  I am writing down again what I wrote down earlier: It's written down in F&B that Rhaenyra approached Daemon right after Laena's death. And I mean right after.

Yes, and as I said - this kind of thing does happen even if the widower in question isn't just the hot uncle you had a thing for as a girl. It is not uncommon that people comfort each other if they were suffering from a loss and this results in them starting a relationship.

And regardless of the Laena issue - this definitely illustrates the fact that Harwin still being there did not stop Rhaenyra from having sex with Daemon after Laena's death.

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And then there's also the fact that Daemon had no son, but two daughters, one of them married to Rhaenyra's heir, the other one to Laenor's. How would she benefit from marrying Daemon, if Daemon already was on her side (at least trough the betrothals of his daughters)? And why would she let Daemon, a monster, who she know well, if not for love? And also, Daemon would only benefit from this if he'll get direct control over the IT trough her (and we really didn't see that happening during the Dance...he wasn't really more than her closest advisor). Otherwise, his descendants would be quenns and kings anyway.

The children were betrothed to each other ... and the marriages still over a decade or more away. Neither Baela nor Rhaena were ever married to any of Rhaenyra's sons. A lot of things could happen in the meantime ... betrothals can be dissolved, after all. By 120 AC none of Alicent's children were yet married. The Greens could have recruited Daemon to their side by offering him Helaena's hand ... and Rhaenyra could have ended up with Aegon or Aemond as a second husband for this or that reason. If that had happened they would have likely also dissolved those betrothals.

As for political motivations in this - Daemon without Rhaenyra as his wife would just be a landless prince without influence or seat. Rhaenyra without Daemon would be without a strong man at her side. If there was ever going to be a conflict with the Green faction then Rhaenyra having Daemon on her side would make sense for her, no?

Not to mention that the explanation we get for the rushed wedding is Rhaenyra's pregnancy ... although that's a bad theory in light of the fact that Rhaenyra could have passed Aegon the Younger as Laenor's final child. If she got pregnant before his death and while she was still comforting Daemon for Laena, Laenor could have been the father. And perhaps he was. We actually do not know ;-). After all, the man lived at High Tide, too, just as Daemon and Laena did at the time of Laena's death. And while we think about that - who is to say Harwin isn't the father of Aegon III? If Rhaenyra got pregnant before Laenor's death/Harwin's return to Harrenhal and she had sex with him at that time then this would certainly be possible.

But, again, FaB really doesn't elaborate much about the family life there. We don't even get Rhaenyra's - or Aegon the Younger's or Baela/Rhaena's - reaction to Daemon's death at Harrenhal, nor what the children thought about the entire Nettles affair. We don't know if Daemon was still interested in power when the Dance began ... or whether that had changed over the years.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You are confusing things here. Rhaenyra's fling with Daemon happened in 111 AC, after his temporary return from the Stepstones, Rhaenyra's one night with Harwin was the result of her break-up/whatever with Criston Cole, which took place at the same day as Viserys I forcing his daughter to go through with the Laenor marriage. Meaning they were already betrothed and scheduled to marry when the Harwin thing took place. And we have to take that with a grain of salt since the source in Mushroom - whose account on Rhaenyra-Daemon and Cole being 'as chaste as an old septa' is not exactly all that convincing.

Sorry, I was wrong about when things with Daemon happened. Either way, their first night (if ever happened) happened before the marriage. Not so long before, but still. That does make Ser Harwin her toy in her weak moment, pretty much, but not her sperm donor.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, and as I said - this kind of thing does happen even if the widower in question isn't just the hot uncle you had a thing for as a girl. It is not uncommon that people comfort each other if they were suffering from a loss and this results in them starting a relationship.

And regardless of the Laena issue - this definitely illustrates the fact that Harwin still being there did not stop Rhaenyra from having sex with Daemon after Laena's death.

My guess is that Rhaenyra always had a thing a thing on Daemon. We can't really say she loved Ser Criston or Ser Harwin, yet she chose to sleep with Ser Harwin regularly. 

What I'm just tryna say is that if she would've grown fond of Laena that eay, she wouldn't have approached him immediately after her death. I mean, it's still an amoral thing.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Greens could have recruited Daemon to their side by offering him Helaena's hand .

Except Daemon hated on Viserys' son for the fact that they pushed him even further away. 

At last, we surely don't know what Daemon aimed for in his later life, but Viserys tought that the betrothals of his daughters still didn't calm him.

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1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Sorry, I was wrong about when things with Daemon happened. Either way, their first night (if ever happened) happened before the marriage. Not so long before, but still. That does make Ser Harwin her toy in her weak moment, pretty much, but not her sperm donor.

Yes, of course, I never said it didn't happen before the marriage, I just corrected your claim that it happened before marriage and betrothal.

The idea if we go with Harwin as father of the children would be that Rhaenyra offered Harwin the role of her protector and secret paramour when they had that first night. She seems to have had something like that in mind for Criston Cole and when he rejected her she went to the next best man.

But in light of the fact that she seems to have been in love with Criston at that time chances are very low that her relationship with Harwin was rooted in love ... more like attraction and convenience. Because we can also be reasonably certain that Rhaenyra loathing Laenor to the degree she did made it very unlikely from the start she was willing to have a proper marriage with him ... even if he had been determined to do his part (which he apparently wasn't).

Again, the idea is that this general impression people seem to have - that Harwin was an important person in Rhaenyra's life - is clearly not very well-founded by the text. Unlike the entire Laena thing.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

What I'm just tryna say is that if she would've grown fond of Laena that eay, she wouldn't have approached him immediately after her death. I mean, it's still an amoral thing.

Of course, but so what? It was also vastly improper for both Daemon and Rhaenyra to marry as quickly after the deaths of their respective spouses, yet they did that, too. And we do not have to imagine this whole thing as something that was planned. Rhaenyra was there when Laena died, she and Daemon exchance memories of her, they start to drink, start to remember their own past, and then it happens. With their history that it isn't surprising at all.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Except Daemon hated on Viserys' son for the fact that they pushed him even further away. 

Of course, but this entire story has a lot of queer bedfellows, no? It starts with Corlys and Daemon preparing to start a succession war in 101 AC before the Great Council. And then later they team up because neither has the prominent place as the court of Viserys I they wanted ... and Daemon eventually even marries Corlys' daughter - a woman whose claim he was fighting against in 101 AC. In the 110s Laena Velaryon suddenly looked attractive to him.

And it is actually somewhat similar with Rhaenyra. Originally in 103-105 AC Daemon viewed Rhaenyra as his own rival. He wanted to be his brother's heir, he wanted to be king one day. He did not want to be the prince/king consort at Rhaenyra's side. But when Rhaenyra was installed as the Heir Apparent Daemon quickly changed his approach, realizing his way to the Iron Throne now went through Rhaenyra, by seducing and marrying her.

It is completely within the mindset of this man to forget the issues he had with Otto and Alicent and join their team if they would have him. Daemon Targaryen only becomes a Black in 120 AC when he marries Rhaenyra. Prior to that he wasn't part of either party, only sort of tangentially connected to Rhaenyra via Laena and Laenor.

If we assume for a moment that Daemon doesn't marry Rhaenyra in 120 AC then a lot of things could have happened. If he had married Helaena he could have offered Baela and Rhaena to Aegon the Elder and Aemond, respectively.

We also see those shifting alliances on the other side - originally Otto Hightower makes Rhaenyra the Heir Apparent and then later he does anything in his power to stop her. And Viserys I was also easy to persuade most of the time. He banished Daemon multiple times but always allowed him to return ... just as he dismissed Otto once only to recall him later.

So we can also imagine that with Rhaenyra widowed Otto and Alicent would push the king again for the match they had suggested back in 113 AC - Rhaenyra marrying her half-brother Aegon the Elder.

In light of everything that had gone wrong in 120 AC this could have been something Viserys I may have even accepted or considered a good idea now to bind this family closer together that clearly started to fray.

What basically finally forms the two factions as we know them is Daemon marrying Rhaenyra in 120 AC and Aegon marrying Helaena a couple of years later.

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