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Illyrio and The Tattered Prince's Secret Past


Fire Eater

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"I grew so respectable that a cousin of the Prince of Pentos let me wed his maiden daughter, whilst whispers of a certain eunuch's talents crossed the narrow sea and reached the ears of a certain king."


We all know Illyrio's first wife was the cousin of the Prince of Pentos, but do you think it's possible that he became Prince, because his cousin married Illyrio?

Basically, Illyrio's wife was from the forty families of Pentos, and I'm guessing any father from a prestigious, aristocratic family might have been reluctant to marry his daughter to a former sellsword of humble origins. However, marriages in ASOIAF are often deals brokered between families as forms of business transactions, and it isn't exclusive to Westeros. Illyrio's good-father may have agreed to such a match if his family felt they were getting something valuable in return. I think this was the deal Illyrio had with his wife's family: in exchange for her hand and being welcomed into the forty families, he made their relative Prince of Pentos.

However, there is another person introduced in ADWD that came the Pentos's elite circles. According to the WOIAF: 

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The most recent and famous of these is the notorious sellsword captain called the Tattered Prince. As a youth, he was elected by the magisters of Pentos after a long drought and the execution of the previous prince in the year 262 AC. 

To give you an idea, 262 AC was the same year Aerys was crowned, and almost two decades before Aegon was born. I don't think it would be a stretch to assume that Illyrio married his first wife around that time. GRRM said: 

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As for Illyrio. He was wealthy but not near as powerful as he is today. Only with the help of Varys did he reach a position where the daughter of a magister was willing to marry him.

As Varys once said "secrets are worth more than silvers and sapphires." The Tattered Prince could have been the original candidate for Prince, but he could have been forced to flee after Varys and Illyrio blackmailed him or threatened him. After Tatters left, that allowed Illyrio's good-cousin to assume the crown, and Illyrio got accepted into the elite circle of the forty families. Of course, he later separated from his wife when Varys gave him a better offer with Serra. 

I think it would work thematically in that the Tattered Prince like Daenerys is a prince exiled due to Illyrio and Varys's scheming, and is returning home to take back the crown that Illyrio's family stole from him. The victims of Illyrio's schemes are coming back to haunt him.
 

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Technically Illyrio's first wife could have not been from the forty families since she could have been the prince's cousin on his mother's side - and there is no indication that those forty families only marry among themselves. If that were the case, then Illyrio's first wife would have been prestigious due to her relation to the prince, but not all that highborn herself (sort of like the Estermonts are relations to King Robert but definitely not 'royal' themselves).

Also, the text says that Illyrio married the cousin of the Prince of Pentos - indicating the man was already prince when this happened, not that he eventually made him prince. The implication is that Illyrio's wealth and power allowed him to make himself more respectable by this match - not that he already had enough power to ensure the election of a new prince. That kind of thing would mean he wouldn't really need to become more respectable by marrying the cousin of a prince.

The idea that Varys/Illyrio could have had something to do with the Tattered Prince leaving Pentos was once a pretty good idea ... but since we know that the guy left Pentos around 262 AC that's very difficult to imagine.

Neither Illyrio nor Varys give the impression to be around sixty these days - which they would have to be, and possibly older, if we imagine them as being already powerful power brokers in Pentos in 262 AC.

Varys' first career stretched over a couple of years in Myr, and even if he was in his late teens when arriving in Pentos, it would have taken him and Illyrio another couple of years before they were powerful enough to influence politics on a great scale. Messing with magisters and princes would only come when Illyrio had grown really respectable.

As for marriage customs in Pentos - they are somewhat more egalitarian there. Wealth is nobility in most of the Free Cities, not high birth. So if you get rich enough you can also marry into nobility.

Also, I'm not sure it makes much sense to assume the members of the forty families are particularly keen to become prince. That is only a ceremonial office these days ... and one that can result in you being ritually sacrificed. Mind you, the prince isn't completely powerless, and it might not be that bad to be prince in a time of relative peace and prosperity ... but I don't think anyone would plot and scheme to get himself or a close relation elected prince - unless they wanted to get rid of that person, perhaps. Rather, the scheming behind the scenes would be about doing everything in your power that you or other members of your family are not elected prince.

If there is a relation between Tatters and Illyrio then there might be a chance that the Tattered Prince is Illyrio's father or uncle or another close relation. He is old enough for that, and if the guy went into exile when Illyrio was just a toddler then this could also explain why he grew up as a poor bravo. Tatters decision to run definitely could have resulted in the downfall and ruin of his entire family ... after all, if it was easy for elected princes to run away then one would imagine this were to happen more often. But apparently it doesn't ... which could possibly indicate that there are dire consequences for the family of any elected prince who refuses to do his duty.

As for the fate of Illyrio's first wife - it is implied that she died. And Serra definitely was not an improvement, being a former Lysene whore. Even if she had some Targaryen blood and stuff - the fact that she was a whore would have destroyed all that.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, the text says that Illyrio married the cousin of the Prince of Pentos - indicating the man was already prince when this happened, not that he eventually made him prince

It isn't specified when her cousin became Prince of Pentos. Even if he married her after her cousin became the Prince, his statement would still be correct given she still was a cousin of the Prince of Pentos at some point.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, I'm not sure it makes much sense to assume the members of the forty families are particularly keen to become prince. That is only a ceremonial office these days ... and one that can result in you being ritually sacrificed. Mind you, the prince isn't completely powerless, and it might not be that bad to be prince in a time of relative peace and prosperity ... but I don't think anyone would plot and scheme to get himself or a close relation elected prince - unless they wanted to get rid of that person, perhaps. Rather, the scheming behind the scenes would be about doing everything in your power that you or other members of your family are not elected prince.

The Prince of Pentos is the head of state, which brings a lot of influence, power and prestige to whoever is the Prince as well as his family. It also comes with the perks of deflowering two maidens every year, going around in a rich palanquin, presiding over feasts and balls and a palace. It also considered an honor. Some have refused according to WOIAF, but at the same time there are definitely people who would want it in spite of the risk just for the benefits. The scheming behind the scenes to keep your relatives from getting the title makes little sense given if no one actually wants it, then why keep the position at all, as opposed to just simply having a council of magisters without a prince run the city like many other Free Cities? 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

As for the fate of Illyrio's first wife - it is implied that she died. And Serra definitely was not an improvement, being a former Lysene whore. Even if she had some Targaryen blood and stuff - the fact that she was a whore would have destroyed all that.

It isn't indicated anywhere that she died. It's possible, but we'll have to wait for details. 

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On 2/14/2021 at 3:08 AM, Fire Eater said:

It isn't specified when her cousin became Prince of Pentos. Even if he married her after her cousin became the Prince, his statement would still be correct given she still was a cousin of the Prince of Pentos at some point.

The context in question indicates that Illyrio finally had established himself with the elite of Pentos with this marriage:

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I grew so respectable that a cousin of the Prince of Pentos let me wed his maiden daughter, whilst whispers of a certain eunuch's talents crossed the narrow sea and reached the ears of a certain king.

This implies that the cousin of the man in question who wed his daughter to Illyrio was already Prince of Pentos at that time. And it also implies that this happened at the end of Varys/Illyrio's partnership in Pentos when Varys was about to move on to KL and enter into the service of Aerys II. There is no indication that this could have happened as early as 262 AC or around that time.

Rather we would date that to the late 270s, around the time of Duskendale or shortly thereafter.

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The Prince of Pentos is the head of state, which brings a lot of influence, power and prestige to whoever is the Prince as well as his family. It also comes with the perks of deflowering two maidens every year, going around in a rich palanquin, presiding over feasts and balls and a palace. It also considered an honor. Some have refused according to WOIAF, but at the same time there are definitely people who would want it in spite of the risk just for the benefits. The scheming behind the scenes to keep your relatives from getting the title makes little sense given if no one actually wants it, then why keep the position at all, as opposed to just simply having a council of magisters without a prince run the city like many other Free Cities? 

The Prince is the nominal head of state. He doesn't run the government. The magisters do that. And they also decide if and when the Prince is to be sacrificed.

And considering the men eligible to be elected to this office are rich noblemen from those forty families chances are not that high that they need all the honors that come with the office to live a good life.

Also, the very fact that the Prince is effectively a sacrificial lamb when push comes to shove indicates that the real power in Pentos doesn't lie in the hands of the Prince nor the families from whose ranks the Prince is elected - because those people would have little to no interest to set up a system where the Prince might end up with a cut throat if something he cannot control goes awry. You don't just get sacrificed when a war goes bad - something you can control to a point - but also when there are crop failures and such things.

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It isn't indicated anywhere that she died. It's possible, but we'll have to wait for details. 

The indication is that the first wife was already gone when Illyrio chanced on Serra. He claims he didn't plan to marry Serra, she was just supposed to be a bedwarmer. But then he fell in love with her and chose to marry her:

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"A maiden? I know the way of that." Illyrio thrust his right hand up his left sleeve and drew out a silver locket. Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver. "Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her. Me, whose first wife had been a cousin of the Prince of Pentos. The palace gates were closed to me thereafter, but I did not care. The price was small enough, for Serra."

In addition, there is no indication that divorce is a thing in Pentos. But even if it was - there is no indication that Illyrio divorced his first wife. Instead, it seems the woman was already dead and the issue with the Prince was that he felt humiliated by the fact that the widower of his cousin chose to replace said cousin with a whore for a wife. And that the Prince did not tolerate.

This also fits with the timeline very well. If Illyrio only married his first wife in the late 270s then it makes also sense that the very Prince who had been the cousin of his first wife was still around by the time he married Serra - which, if she had something to do with the Aegon plan and stuff, would have been in the early 280s.

Whereas if the first marriage took place in the early 260s chances would be pretty good that the Prince in the 280s when the Aegon plan was made would have been a different Prince - and such a different Prince wouldn't have cared all that much who Illyrio Mopatis took as a second wife. Unlike the Prince who was actually related to Illyrio's first wife.

The chance that Illyrio could have survived it socially to actually divorce the cousin of his Prince is also a pretty big stretch.

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I don't know about a relationship between the Tattered Prince and Illyrio, mainly because the dates don't really seem to align. To me, the only reason to link Illyrio and the Tattered Prince is because Illyrio is the only character of importance that we know in Pentos. 

What the Tattered Prince is proposing is a war of conquest for Pentos, where he's the conqueror. And that has nothing to do with Illyrio. And if he's successful, then it means he will likely install himself as king and perhaps do away with the current power structure. It's hard to imagine that he will conquer Pentos just to give Illyrio the middle finger before he takes his head off.

I'm sure Illyrio has pulled a lot of shit in his lifetime, I have some very serious doubts that he and Tatters have anything to do with each other.

I wonder what the Tattered Prince's real name is. 

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Would it not be more likely that Illyrio is in opposition to the Tattered Prince? As in, by trying to take Pentos, he is in a way taking power away from people who are/were related to his wife?

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"She will, or she will not." Illyrio bit the egg in half. "I told you, my little friend, not all that a man does is done for gain. Believe as you wish, but even fat old fools like me have friends, and debts of affection to repay."

Liar, thought Tyrion. There is something in this venture worth more to you than coin or castles. "You meet so few men who value friendship over gold these days."

Illyrio would have, among others, friends and debts of affection to some related to his first wife, in Pentos. The Prince of Pentos could be an enemy.

Just throwing out this supposition as I feel it could go either way.

That being said, Illyrio's influence has diminished since he married his second wife, so it may be that through the Tattered Prince he could reclaim influence. He may have originally hoped to use Daenerys' arrival in Pentos where she would be joined by the GC to put him in power in Pentos, but since she left for Slaver's Bay he needs someone else. This feels like GRRM had to take a course-shift when he changed the plot line at some point, and made the Tattered Prince for that end as he still wants an Illyrio in charge of Pentos once Daenerys is in Westeros.

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16 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't know about a relationship between the Tattered Prince and Illyrio, mainly because the dates don't really seem to align. To me, the only reason to link Illyrio and the Tattered Prince is because Illyrio is the only character of importance that we know in Pentos. 

What the Tattered Prince is proposing is a war of conquest for Pentos, where he's the conqueror. And that has nothing to do with Illyrio. And if he's successful, then it means he will likely install himself as king and perhaps do away with the current power structure. It's hard to imagine that he will conquer Pentos just to give Illyrio the middle finger before he takes his head off.

I'm sure Illyrio has pulled a lot of shit in his lifetime, I have some very serious doubts that he and Tatters have anything to do with each other.

I wonder what the Tattered Prince's real name is. 

I'm pretty sure the entire point of Tatters is to have a character who can give the gang in Meereen more information about Illyrio and Varys. That is why this man is a Pentoshi nobleman and not from some other place.

That said - he doesn't have to have a direct connection to Illyrio, personally. It is enough for him to keep informed about the things that go on in his home city, for him to have friends and family and informants there ... which is something that's not unlikely at all.

Due to the dates the only real connection I could see is Tatters being either Illyrio's father or another family member of his ... or perhaps somebody somewhat associated with his family. But the idea that Varys/Illyrio could have been involved directly with Tatters' exile just doesn't fly.

If Tatters and Illyrio were family then, perhaps, Tatters may have tried to call on Illyrio's help in the past to return to Pentos ... and Illyrio may have refused him. If that were the case then there could be personal animosity between them. But if that's not the case then Tatters only interest with Daenerys might be to use whatever he knows about Varys/Illyrio to convince her to help him conquer Pentos because he can do that only with the support of her army. And he thinks she might help him there if she knew to what degree the fat man and the eunuch played her and her family in the past.

11 hours ago, Egged said:

Would it not be more likely that Illyrio is in opposition to the Tattered Prince? As in, by trying to take Pentos, he is in a way taking power away from people who are/were related to his wife?

Illyrio would have, among others, friends and debts of affection to some related to his first wife, in Pentos. The Prince of Pentos could be an enemy.

Just throwing out this supposition as I feel it could go either way.

That being said, Illyrio's influence has diminished since he married his second wife, so it may be that through the Tattered Prince he could reclaim influence. He may have originally hoped to use Daenerys' arrival in Pentos where she would be joined by the GC to put him in power in Pentos, but since she left for Slaver's Bay he needs someone else. This feels like GRRM had to take a course-shift when he changed the plot line at some point, and made the Tattered Prince for that end as he still wants an Illyrio in charge of Pentos once Daenerys is in Westeros.

Just to be clear - Illyrio is in no way in charge of Pentos. He is one rich magister there among many, and one whose overall policies seem to focus very much on Westeros and controlling the Iron Throne, not dominating/controlling Pentoshi politics.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm pretty sure the entire point of Tatters is to have a character who can give the gang in Meereen more information about Illyrio and Varys. That is why this man is a Pentoshi nobleman and not from some other place.

That said - he doesn't have to have a direct connection to Illyrio, personally. It is enough for him to keep informed about the things that go on in his home city, for him to have friends and family and informants there ... which is something that's not unlikely at all.

Due to the dates the only real connection I could see is Tatters being either Illyrio's father or another family member or his ... or perhaps somebody somewhat associated with his family. But the idea that Varys/Illyrio could have been involved directly with Tatters' exile just doesn't fly.

If Tatters and Illyrio were family then, perhaps, Tatters may have tried to call on Illyrio's help in the past to return to Pentos ... and Illyrio may have refused him. If that were the case then there could be personal animosity between them. But if that's not the case then Tatters only interest with Daenerys might be to use whatever he knows about Varys/Illyrio to convince her to help him conquer Pentos because he can do that only with the support of her army. And he thinks she might help him there if she knew to what degree the fat man and the eunuch played her and her family in the past.

Just to be clear - Illyrio is in now way in charge of Pentos. He is one rich magister there among many, and one whose overall policies seem to focus very much on Westeros and controlling the Iron Throne, not dominating/controlling Pentoshi politics.

Yeah I should say he might want to retake a position of influence. But really if he had Daenerys over she could have put him in charge.

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On 2/14/2021 at 4:25 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I wonder what the Tattered Prince's real name is. 

Maybe it's Duncan Stark, son of the Wandering Wolf Rodrik Stark and Arya Flint from mountain clans (she's a highlander). 

Spoiler

 There's a lot of Stark-related symbolism around Tatters, mainly it's overabundance of grey color - his horse, his canvas castle, his hair and mail.

Windblown's banner is white and blue - possibly snow and blue winter roses of Winterfell.

And there's a mutual animosity between Tatters and Bloodbeard, the leader of the Company of the Cat. Seems that Bloodbeard is a descendant of Raymun Redbeard, a King-Beyond-the-Wall, ancestor of Gerrick Kingsblood. Bloodbeard and Gerrick have similar looks - "Gerrick is tall with long legs, broad shoulders, long red hair and a red beard.[2]", Bloodbeard - "a huge man with a great bush of a beard with fiery red whiskers and long braids."

If Tatters is a Stark, then he is a "direwolf", or a dog, and Bloodbeard is a cat (because he is a leader of the Company of the Cat, it's his company so he is the Cat), thus their animosity is a reference to "fighting like cats and dogs". Also Starks and Wildlings are natural enemies.

Tatters' name, if it's Duncan, could be a homage/tribute to Adrian Paul/Duncan MacLeod from TV-show Highlander.

https://uinterview.com/videos/adrian-paul-on-the-sword-experience-highlander-game-of-thrones-fight-scenes/

Adrian Paul narrated several of GRRM's audio-books: Wild Cards IV, Wild Cards V, Wild Cards VII. And both of them in 2007 narrated audio-book Dreamsongs (first published in 2003):

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49467588-dreamsongs

In ASOIAF so far there are four (five) known Duncans - Duncan the Tall (first mentioned in ACOK, chapter 32&52 / Sansa III&IV, published in 1998), Duncan the Small (first mentioned in ASOS, chapter 67, Jaime VIII, published in 2000), Duncan Liddle (Night's Watch) and Duncan Strong (Golden Company), both appeared in ADWD, published in 2011. (And Duncan Tuttle, castellan of Ironrath. House Tuttle appears only in Game of Thrones - A Telltale Games Series.)

GRRM in his writing frequently uses trinities. So there should be three significant Duncans, and three insignificant Duncans. Two significant are Duncan the Tall and Duncan the Small, while two insignificant are Duncan Liddle and Duncan Strong. And there's one more insignificant Duncan, who doesn't exist in the books, who is a character from the game; and one significant Duncan, whose name wasn't revealed yet in the books. So for now he doesn't exist yet, at least not as Duncan, only as Tatters.

Tatters appeared in ADWD, which was published in 2011.

A Game of Thrones was published in 1996, but even though Rodrik Stark was mentioned there by Bran (AGOT, Bran VII - "There's Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts."), it wasn't revealed until publication of "The World of Ice and Fire" (in 2014) that Rodrik's wife was a Flint (highlander), or that his sister was Alysanne (which is possibly Old Nan's real name). Edit: Rodrik Stark, mentioned in AGOT, was not Rodrik Stark who was the Wandering Wolf. Thus this other Rodrik appeared only after the World's book publication (2014).

The Highlander TV-series was filmed in 1992-1998. In 1987-1990 George Martin was working on "Beauty and the Beast" TV-series. Could be that that's when GRRM met Adrian Paul, when they both were involved in that industry.

GRRM added various tributes and homages into his series:

https://iceandfire.fandom.com/wiki/Tributes_and_homages

So, what I'm saying, is that, based on the timing of when various Duncans appeared in GRRM's books, and that the "Highlander" was already filmed at that time, and GRRM was also involved in a TV-series-making industry at that point in time (prior he released AGOT), and the fact that Adrian Paul and GRRM know each other (Adrian narrated GRRM's audio-books, and have read the first script of GOT-TV-show, when the casting was only starting, and people in general didn't knew about that show), could be that all Duncans in GRRM's books are homages to Adrian Paul/the Highlander/Duncan MacLeod.

And in-Universe Rodrik Stark named his son Duncan, because he and Duncan the Tall were friends. GRRM confirmed that Brienne is Duncan the Tall's descendant. Hodor is Old Nan's great grandson. In one of Bran's tree-visions he saw a knight, as tall as Hodor, kissing with a brown-haired girl. I think that that knight was Dunk and the girl was Old Nan, whose real name is Alysanne Stark. That knight was compared to Hodor, because Hodor, same as Brienne, is also Dunk's descendant, thru Old Nan/Alysanne. Alysanne was Rodrik's older sister. So could be that the sister was in a romantical relationship with Dunk, and her younger brother was Dunk's friend. Egg named one of his children as a homage to his friend, Duncan the Tall, could be that Rodrik Stark also named his son as a homage to his friend, Dunk. Makes sense, doesn't it? ;)

~~~

Tatters is in his early 60s, and Illyrio is around 40, same as Varys. Thus, when Tatters had to escape from Pentos, Illyrio at that time was still a baby, or wasn't even born yet. Thus, whatever is Tatters' motives to get Pentos, it's unlikely that they are in any way connected to Illyrio. Unless Illyrio is Tatters' son, and his mother was abandoned by Tatters, when he was running away from Pentos. Which doesn't mean that the mother herself was a Pentosi, she could have been a citizen of Braavos or Lys, or wherever it is where Varys met Illyrio.

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