Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 39 minutes ago, El Guapo said: As far as Jon is concerned he bores me to death. Nothing more nothing less. and it has nothing to do with the tv show. Come on, his POVs in ADWD are pretty fun. Bran on the other hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 19 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Come on, his POVs in ADWD are pretty fun. Bran on the other hand... He has interesting things going on around him I will give you that, which is a shame since he himself is not interesting at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James West Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Jon is dead. He will come back as a walking dead. Jon will be an ice zombie with some parts of his function still working because of his wolf bond. He will not become a ruler of men. Not unless those men are all ice wights. That could make him the great Other and the antagonist to the people of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow? GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you? https://ew.com/article/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Quote A Game of Thrones - Prologue "Do the dead frighten you?" Ser Waymar Royce asked with just the hint of a smile. Gared did not rise to the bait. He was an old man, past fifty, and he had seen the lordlings come and go. "Dead is dead," he said. "We have no business with the dead." "Are they dead?" Royce asked softly. "What proof have we?" Martin has been playing with definition of dead for a long time. If the dead get up and walk and talk are they dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 hour ago, LynnS said: Martin has been playing with definition of dead for a long time. If the dead get up and walk and talk are they dead? Even the metaphor is dead inside can be worse than physical death. In ASOIAF look at Alyssa Aryn's case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreeEyedCow Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 A lot of people have pointed out that there have been a few resurrections already but I think it's pertinent to examine each resurrection as an unique event. Beric was raised, and we get the impression that this was a fluke. Beric kept coming back. So much so that he'd forgotten (or was forgetting) why. It's an essay all by itself but I think what we were looking at through Arya's eyes was a man carrying a flame that wasn't meant for him. That same flame is passed onto.... Catelyn. Cat returned in similar fashion to Beric but we can patently see where it went wrong. Beric allowed his fire to be passed onto a heavily traumatised and very decomposed woman with nought but vengeance on her mind. Khal Drogo's resurrection was utterly botched. His body reanimated minus his mind. Something went wrong. Anyone who read that chapter could tell things were going horribly wrong. Now, I'm massively summarising. Each of these resurrections can be poured over but the above is just my take-away. None of the above resurrections were ideal. I feel for Beric as I see him as ultimately a well intentioned man embroiled in a war that was already lost. I'm also of the opinion that their strategy of using Berics gift as a tool for trial by combat was pointless and just a complete waste. He couldn't just keep coming back. It doesn't seem to work infinite times as there is a toll on that persons soul or will or whatever you can call it. He lost desire, and purpose. Catelyn was too far gone. She had lost too much of herself and was not an ideal candidate for reanimation. Khal Drogo is tricky. It's tempting to suggest that Drogo needed to warg but his entire reanimation ritual appears to of been ruined. I think GRRM is showing us varying types of reanimation and giving us a little insight into how it works. What the rules are. How to use it etc etc. Jon haters will not like this but Jon clearly has a lot going for him. Ice will preserve his corpse. Poor Beric and Cat had no such luxury. Beric died during summer and Catelyn was thrown into a river which is a really bad place to put a dead body. There's a bunch of reasons but needless to say you'd never do that with a body you were trying to reanimate. Even Frankenstein wouldn't want those parts. Melisandre appears to be on Moqorro's level. Who better to perform the resurrection? I'll let other readers argue over whether Vic is now technically a fire wight or not. Beric and Cat have/had Thorys who by his own admission was as surprised as everyone else that the kiss of life worked at all. And then there's Ghost. A safe warm place for any warg. Beric and Cat had no such familiar. The differences are Stark. (Sorry.) So everything's great! Yay! But no. It won't be perfect will it? Because I think GRRM just wants to show us how it can be different again. Jon doesn't have an infinite amount of time to linger inside of Ghost. He will lose himself. There are rules. And we can be certain that this is one of them. And honestly, I like the way George goes about this. I think people also need to remember the art of story telling is in the how and not the what. This is something George stressed a lot during the airing of the final season of the abomination. If Sansa achieves the title of Lady of the North, George will tell an infinitely more interesting version than what we got. And I think it's the same for every character. Including Jon. Back in aSoS, we had no real scope for the story. And neither did George by the looks of it. He's lost time and we've well and truly caught up. But he's still a phenomenal writer and however he brings Jon back, I bet it will be exciting and just ambiguous enough to get us arguing about new things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 14 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: Even the metaphor is dead inside can be worse than physical death. In ASOIAF look at Alyssa Aryn's case. Or a death more than death. Quote A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX "… don't want to wake the dragon …" The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said: A lot of people have pointed out that there have been a few resurrections already but I think it's pertinent to examine each resurrection as an unique event. I agree. Most of those resurrections are with fire. If Jon is dead while Melisandre is nearby so is Val and she seems to be a type of shaman warrior princess or even by Bran and Bloodraven after a death under a weirwood. If he is in a coma like state, his sensuousness passes to Ghost and his body is healed either by a healer or by a witch healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 8 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow? GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you? https://ew.com/article/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g/ Hey, I know this quote quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 49 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Hey, I know this quote quite well. It's alive! It's alive! Glad to see you back, hope you're here to stay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 59 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Hey, I know this quote quite well. Hi there! 10 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: It's alive! It's alive! Glad to see you back, hope you're here to stay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 On 2/24/2021 at 5:42 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said: Come on, his POVs in ADWD are pretty fun. Bran on the other hand... The only enjoyable chapter of Jon's is the one where Bowen and the other guys stuck him with their daggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 @TheThreeEyedCow Jon was not an innocent. His crimes called for him to be executed. Sure, he will come back but not like a human and he will be an outcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targaryen Restoration Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 On 2/14/2021 at 1:40 PM, Rondo said: There is no path forward for Jon when he comes back. He got caught in a lie. The pink letter exposed his corruption. The people of the north will hate him for setting up Lady Karstark with the wildling. He will be treated as a deserter if he gets caught in the south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 8 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said: There is no path forward for Jon when he comes back. He got caught in a lie. The pink letter exposed his corruption. The people of the north will hate him for setting up Lady Karstark with the wildling. He will be treated as a deserter if he gets caught in the south. Cool fanfiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Reading this interview; this caught my eye: Quote There’s few acts of kindness in your novels. If somebody is on their own, or weakened, they can pretty much expect everybody to take advantage of them or treat them terribly. Obviously Aslan is not going to save the day, but are your books cynical about human nature? I think the books are realistic. I’ve always liked gray characters. And as for the gods, I’ve never been satisfied by any of the answers that are given. If there really is a benevolent loving god, why is the world full of rape and torture? Why do we even have pain? I was taught pain is to let us know when our body is breaking down. Well, why couldn’t we have a light? Like a dashboard light? If Chevrolet could come up with that, why couldn’t God? Why is agony a good way to handle things? Does this say anything about Quaithe's instructions that Dany must "pass beneath the shadow and touch the light"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracul's Daughter Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 minute ago, LynnS said: Reading this interview; this caught my eye: Does this say anything about Quaithe's instructions that Dany must "pass beneath the shadow and touch the light"? I think every one from the big 6 will hit bottom.As Martin said,things will get very,very dark and not just litteraly but I expect all of them ,with Tyrion's exception,to come back to surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracul's Daughter Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 On 2/25/2021 at 10:00 AM, Lilac & Gooseberries said: ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow? GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you? https://ew.com/article/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g/ I know this!!!!It's a big WOOOAAAA.I've heard a theory that he could have used Melissandre's glamour and switched with Tormund.That would be cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 minute ago, Dracul's Daughter said: I know this.I've heared a theory that he could have used Melissandre's glamour and switched with Tormund.That would be cool. There is something much simpler, he is gravely injured but not dead. He will be in a coma and he will be healed either by Val or by Bran and Bloodraven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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