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Rondo

The Return of Jon Snow

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1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Jon is not a full, clean blooded Targaryen he cannot have the liveliness and vigor the Targaryens have

:agree: Jon is a half blood, as is Aegon. Only Daenerys is a pure born TargARYAN! Jon's dragons if they exist will be weaklings unable to deal with the Others, not that he would want that given he's in cahoots with them. Only Daenerys's dragons will be filled with life and vigor, marking her as Azor Ahai.

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On 2/26/2021 at 8:18 AM, LynnS said:

Reading this interview; this caught my eye:

 

Does this say anything about Quaithe's instructions that Dany must "pass beneath the shadow and touch the light"?

 

 

It does not mean that.  It means Daenerys will experience the Long Night, live through it, and then see Spring before she will sail for Westeros.  She has a lot to do in Essos.  Plenty to keep her occupied while Westeros is in the process of being reset. 

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On 2/26/2021 at 7:57 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

:agree: Jon is a half blood, as is Aegon. Only Daenerys is a pure born TargARYAN! Jon's dragons if they exist will be weaklings unable to deal with the Others, not that he would want that given he's in cahoots with them. Only Daenerys's dragons will be filled with life and vigor, marking her as Azor Ahai.

You really sound like a Dany worshipper, congratulations! 

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4 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

You really sound like a Dany worshipper, congratulations! 

I don't know if that's saying good things about my sarcasm, or bad things about them, that they've gotten to the point of self satire...

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On 2/14/2021 at 1:40 PM, Rondo said:

He was wearing an ice armor and fighting the wights atop the wall.  In the dream, he was alone and fighting a losing battle.  This particular dream can be all true or partly true.  I'm not trying to prove anything.

The ice armor came from the Others.  He was awakened from death by the Others.  He was able to hold on to his mind because he warged his wolf.  Coldhands was also man of the nights' watch.  He had information to share but he chose to stay away.  The nights' watch and the wildlings would not take kindly to a dead man coming back to life.  All their experiences tell them the dead coming back will mean trouble.  Coldhands stayed away.  He was also accidentally brought back by the Others.  He kept his mind because he was also a warg.  Make note of how he took control of that elk.  A herd animal does not like being away from the others.  CH forced the poor animal to carry them to safety. 

The brothers of the watch and the wildlings will burn every walking dead they see.  It explains why Brynden Rivers, the Bloodraven, never tried to return to the wall.  Jon is not going to be accepted when he comes back.  He will be the lone wolf until death takes his body.

Here is my opinion from an old topic on how Jon Iceman will be received.

"They have seen the dead come back as walking ice columns. He will be seen as a wight. Those who witness will see his return as the work of the White Walkers. Jon will come back as a Wight Walker."

Resurrecting Jon will be seen as a work of evil.  He will be treated like a wight.  Feared and hated.  

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Posted (edited)
On 2/14/2021 at 1:40 PM, Rondo said:

He was wearing an ice armor and fighting the wights atop the wall.  In the dream, he was alone and fighting a losing battle.  This particular dream can be all true or partly true.  I'm not trying to prove anything.

The ice armor came from the Others.  He was awakened from death by the Others.  He was able to hold on to his mind because he warged his wolf.  Coldhands was also man of the nights' watch.  He had information to share but he chose to stay away.  The nights' watch and the wildlings would not take kindly to a dead man coming back to life.  All their experiences tell them the dead coming back will mean trouble.  Coldhands stayed away.  He was also accidentally brought back by the Others.  He kept his mind because he was also a warg.  Make note of how he took control of that elk.  A herd animal does not like being away from the others.  CH forced the poor animal to carry them to safety. 

The brothers of the watch and the wildlings will burn every walking dead they see.  It explains why Brynden Rivers, the Bloodraven, never tried to return to the wall.  Jon is not going to be accepted when he comes back.  He will be the lone wolf until death takes his body.

Jon will be a pariah when he comes back from death.  Jon is the darkbringer.  He is the crow who betrayed the Night's Watch. 

Edited by U. B. Cool

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On 2/26/2021 at 5:39 PM, Lord of Blackhaven said:

Also, don't dragon eggs usually need a lot of heat to hatch? That was the implication for why Dragonstone was ideal. Or when Dany's three hatched in the funeral pyre.

A fire can be manufactured I suppose, but I doubt this is a plot device Martin will use. It would be a little too "deus ex machina."

Dany's 3 were atypical because the eggs were fossilised, so you can't take those needing a fire as an indication heat is usually required.

The accounts from the short stories etc would indicate that when dragons hatched from fresh clutches of non-fossilised eggs, the eggs were given to Targ relations and no special treatment or heating was done, just waiting to see whether they hatched or not.

Dragons thrived in Dragonstone, and not on the mainland, but that is not the same as needing to be there to hatch at all. And I think it wasn't the heat so much as the volcanic activity - Dragonstone having a similar environment to Valyria pre-doom.

On 2/15/2021 at 4:37 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Sure, but that gets really old and repetitive.  This is an author who wants to be different and unique.  Beric and Cat already came back to life. Drogo and Gregor sort of came back from the brink of death.  Better for the story to have Jon simply die and come back as a vengeful ghost who haunts Castle Black.

Beric came back from the dead to establish the gun above the mantelpiece, so that we had precedence when Jon gets revived the same way.

Cat came back because there is more dramatic weight in seeing the horror of her undead state. Seeing her in that condition has more emotional weight than Beric, who we barely meet in life.

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On 2/14/2021 at 1:40 PM, Rondo said:

He was wearing an ice armor and fighting the wights atop the wall.  In the dream, he was alone and fighting a losing battle.  This particular dream can be all true or partly true.  I'm not trying to prove anything.

The ice armor came from the Others.  He was awakened from death by the Others.  He was able to hold on to his mind because he warged his wolf.  Coldhands was also man of the nights' watch.  He had information to share but he chose to stay away.  The nights' watch and the wildlings would not take kindly to a dead man coming back to life.  All their experiences tell them the dead coming back will mean trouble.  Coldhands stayed away.  He was also accidentally brought back by the Others.  He kept his mind because he was also a warg.  Make note of how he took control of that elk.  A herd animal does not like being away from the others.  CH forced the poor animal to carry them to safety. 

The brothers of the watch and the wildlings will burn every walking dead they see.  It explains why Brynden Rivers, the Bloodraven, never tried to return to the wall.  Jon is not going to be accepted when he comes back.  He will be the lone wolf until death takes his body.

Agree. His dog was found at some distance from the other pups.  It was presumably driven away.  Jon was always an oddball who never belonged.  He had his chance to become part of a brotherhood.  Jon was accepted at the wall.  He botched that relationship for Arya.  

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On 2/21/2021 at 12:10 PM, Travis said:

Jon is dead/will die. What is left of him will be preserved in Ghost. When he is returned to his dead body (I think the show simplified this for obvious reasons), what remains will be part wolf (wild). He will ultimately uphold his oath as a man of the Nights Watch, but will largely be seen as a Jaime Lannister figure ("They make you swear and swear...").

Jon will be in two places.  In his wightified body and Ghost.  The two will be inseparable.  It's a one-way trip for the mind.  His mind will be locked inside Ghost permanently.  He will slowly lose his humanity but the wolf's pack instincts will get stronger.  

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11 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

It's a one-way trip for the mind.  His mind will be locked inside Ghost permanently.

Well, we don't know if it's a one-way trip.

Magic is the catalyzer to events without limits. We just can't predict how it'll happen and how it'll affect the story.

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On 3/1/2021 at 5:51 AM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Here is my opinion from an old topic on how Jon Iceman will be received.

"They have seen the dead come back as walking ice columns. He will be seen as a wight. Those who witness will see his return as the work of the White Walkers. Jon will come back as a Wight Walker."

Resurrecting Jon will be seen as a work of evil.  He will be treated like a wight.  Feared and hated.  

 

On 3/2/2021 at 3:30 AM, U. B. Cool said:

Jon will be a pariah when he comes back from death.  Jon is the darkbringer.  He is the crow who betrayed the Night's Watch. 

Not a problem. Winter is coming, has arrived in fact, all over Westeros. Everyone at the Wall is going to be deep frozen, as suggested by all the mentions of ghost watchmen, and ghost castles, not to mention the Gift and the New Gift.

Mel has bad news too:

Quote

Melisandre nodded solemnly, as if she had taken his word to heart, but this Weeper did not matter. None of his free folk mattered. They were a lost people, a doomed people, destined to vanish from the earth, as the children of the forest had vanished. Those were not words he would wish to hear though, and she could not risk losing him, not now.

Of course, we know there's a few children left. But clearly something genocidal is going to happen to the Wildings, who are basing themselves at the Wall and in the Gifts.

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On 3/1/2021 at 12:51 AM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Here is my opinion from an old topic on how Jon Iceman will be received.

"They have seen the dead come back as walking ice columns. He will be seen as a wight. Those who witness will see his return as the work of the White Walkers. Jon will come back as a Wight Walker."

Resurrecting Jon will be seen as a work of evil.  He will be treated like a wight.  Feared and hated.  

And they won't be totally wrong.  Jon's body will be brought back to some semblance of life by the Others.  We know it can happen and has happened.  Coldhands was a wight who kept his wits.  Jon will be the same.  People will see him as a threat.  

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On 2/28/2021 at 4:37 PM, James West said:

It does not mean that.  It means Daenerys will experience the Long Night, live through it, and then see Spring before she will sail for Westeros.  She has a lot to do in Essos.  Plenty to keep her occupied while Westeros is in the process of being reset. 

She may follow Quaithe's advice and spend those years in the far east. 

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On 3/1/2021 at 12:51 AM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Here is my opinion from an old topic on how Jon Iceman will be received.

"They have seen the dead come back as walking ice columns. He will be seen as a wight. Those who witness will see his return as the work of the White Walkers. Jon will come back as a Wight Walker."

Resurrecting Jon will be seen as a work of evil.  He will be treated like a wight.  Feared and hated.  

Jon will be treated like a wight because he will be a wight.  He will come back with one mission in mind, to find and save Arya.  

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On 3/8/2021 at 7:20 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's funny that these theories about Jon transitioning from hero to villain is probably more likely to happen with their favorite character.

Do you assume everyone that thinks Jon will turn dark, hates Jon? I like Jon and I see Jon becoming a much more darker character in the future.  I don’t see what’s the issue of pointing out the possibility.

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20 minutes ago, Crona said:

Do you assume everyone that thinks Jon will turn dark, hates Jon? I like Jon and I see Jon becoming a much more darker character in the future.  I don’t see what’s the issue of pointing out the possibility.

Some of the posts in this thread are saying Jon will become the Great Other, an ice zombie, and an antagonist to the people of Westeros. Is that what you think will happen - Jon Snow literally Stoneheart 2.0?

They aren't arguing that Jon will come back making more morally questionable decisions, or being the same Jon but a huge dickhead - which to me is more likely. 

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4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Some of the posts in this thread are saying Jon will become the Great Other, an ice zombie, and an antagonist to the people of Westeros. Is that what you think will happen - Jon Snow literally Stoneheart 2.0?

They aren't arguing that Jon will come back making more morally questionable decisions, or being the same Jon but a huge dickhead - which to me is more likely. 

Sorry about that. I think Jon is going to get more grey and I think it’s an interesting topic. There just is so much back forth that are nonsense that it really muddies up the conversations.

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On 3/3/2021 at 12:31 AM, Pontius Pilate said:

Agree. His dog was found at some distance from the other pups.  It was presumably driven away.  Jon was always an oddball who never belonged.  He had his chance to become part of a brotherhood.  Jon was accepted at the wall.  He botched that relationship for Arya.  

Yes, he was given a fair chance at the wall.  In many ways, the Crows treated him with more fairness.  His opportunities were limited in Winterfell.  At the wall, he rose to lord commander.  Unfortunately, his heart was with the Starks and never truly was with his Brothers at the wall.

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On 3/2/2021 at 12:44 PM, Buried Treasure said:

Beric came back from the dead to establish the gun above the mantelpiece, so that we had precedence when Jon gets revived the same way.

Cat came back because there is more dramatic weight in seeing the horror of her undead state. Seeing her in that condition has more emotional weight than Beric, who we barely meet in life.

Actually, the gun above the mantelpiece was established in the prologue to AGOT when dead Waymar Royce rose up and throttled Will.  With the danger established for us but hidden from the characters GRRM sets about confounding our expectations by showing how resurrection (if done right, fire magic style) retains the personality more or less intact.

On 3/2/2021 at 3:30 AM, U. B. Cool said:

Jon will be a pariah when he comes back from death.  Jon is the darkbringer. 

 

On 3/1/2021 at 5:51 AM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Resurrecting Jon will be seen as a work of evil.  He will be treated like a wight.  Feared and hated.  

Or, like Beric, he will appear much himself, committed to what he was beforehand and prompt the same reactions from those who know him.  If they are even aware he died at all as opposed to being healed by a powerful sorceress or whatever they think Mel is.

Personally, I think we're jumping the gun on assuming he's dead but even if he is, Mel, who is handily close by and worships R'hollor, only needs to give him the kiss of fire as Thoros did for Beric and Jon's back and Bowen Marsh is about to become considerably shorter.

On 3/3/2021 at 5:31 AM, Pontius Pilate said:

Agree. His dog was found at some distance from the other pups.  It was presumably driven away.  Jon was always an oddball who never belonged.  He had his chance to become part of a brotherhood.  Jon was accepted at the wall.  He botched that relationship for Arya.  

The white pup not being accepted by the mother and driven away is symbolic of Jon being a bastard and thus different to his siblings and you can argue it foreshadows him being driven out of Winterfell by Catelyn when Ned heads south.  He was accepted by his father and his siblings though, just as he was accepted at the NW (Mormont, Aemon, Donal Noye), by the Wildlings (Ygrittte, Mance, Tormund, Val), by Stannis and the  (non-Bolton) Northern Lords.

It's really only the ultras around Marsh and Thorne who have thrown their lot in with the Iron Throne - and by extension the Bolton side in the Northern civil war - who don't accept him and when we get TWOW I think we'll find they backed the wrong horse.

On 3/8/2021 at 1:40 PM, Texas Hold Em said:

And they won't be totally wrong.  Jon's body will be brought back to some semblance of life by the Others.  We know it can happen and has happened.  Coldhands was a wight who kept his wits.  Jon will be the same.  People will see him as a threat.  

Mel = fire magic.  Jon's wounds are on his body so will not leave the impression that Beric's do (bashed in skull, rope burn around the neck, one eye put out by a dagger through the visor).  Even if he's brought back from the dead who will know by looking at him?

On 3/9/2021 at 10:22 PM, Bowen 747 said:

Jon will be treated like a wight because he will be a wight.  He will come back with one mission in mind, to find and save Arya.  

Why?  As an ice wight he would be under the Others' control.  If a wight raised somehow by Bloodraven or Bran (and we have no reason to presume they have these powers) he would presumably be controlled by them.  If he's brought back by Mel (a la Beric) he's still Jon Snow, LC of the NW.

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