Mistakes/Contradictions in the Books v2

[Walda]

Mistakes/Contradictions in the Books v1

[Walda]

Quote

“Robb was sixteen a few days past … a man grown, and a king.

(ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII)

Quote

Answer me this, Lady Stark—did your Ned ever tell you the manner of his father’s death? Or his brother’s?”

“They strangled Brandon while his father watched, and then killed Lord Rickard as well.” An ugly tale, and sixteen years old. Why was he asking about it now?

(ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII)

Eddard did not marry Catelyn until after the battle of the Bells, where Denys Arryn died. He met and married her, and returned to the war a fortnight later. Robb was born nine montths after, at Riverrun, according to Catelyn. 

Brandon and his father had died before Robert's Rebellion, at least a year before Robb was born (Long enough for Jon Arryn to call his banners and fight the battle of Gulltown rather than surrender Robert and Eddard to Aerys, long enough for Eddard to get to Winterfell and call the Northern banners, long enough for Robert to raise the Stormlands and fight the three battles in the South before hiding in the Riverlands) Maybe as long as two years before Robb's birth.

Did GRRM mean her to say "a tale seventeen years old"? Or was Catelyn lying to Jaime when she claimed her son was a man grown? Is it possible that Brandon was still alive when Robb was conceived?

[Walda]

Found one in the first Cersei chapter of A Feast for Crows.

Quote

For a moment she did not recognize the dead man. He had hair like her father, yes, but this was some other man, surely, a smaller man, and much older.

Ch.03 Cersei I

Her confusion is understandable

Quote

When his once-thick golden hair had begun to recede, he had commanded his barber to shave his head; Lord Tywin did not believe in half measures.

Ch.56 Tyrion VII

[Trigger Warning]

I'd say it's pretty typical for people to be off by a year or two when talking or thinking about how long ago something was especially in offhand conversation.  Speaking of Robb she probably just thinks about that entire period as being as long ago as her son is old, people aren't that precise. 

[Mourning Star]

15 hours ago, Walda said:

Found one in the first Cersei chapter of A Feast for Crows.

Ch.03 Cersei I

Her confusion is understandable

Ch.56 Tyrion VII

This doesn't seem inconsistent at all, Tywin had side-whiskers, so hair.

[Megorova]

On 7/14/2021 at 7:42 AM, Walda said:

Found one in the first Cersei chapter of A Feast for Crows.

Ch.03 Cersei I

Her confusion is understandable

Ch.56 Tyrion VII

His grandson, the King just recently died, and he was the Hand, so I doubt that he had a lot of spare time to waste it on personal grooming. So it's likely that for days and weeks afterwards, after the Purple Wedding, while Tyrion was under trial, Tywin didn't shaved his head.

On 3/6/2021 at 10:51 AM, Walda said:

Did GRRM mean her to say "a tale seventeen years old"?

If certain event had happened 16 years and several months ago, people won't be saying a sixteen years and months old tale/event. They rounded to closest date. If it would have happened nearly 17 years ago, then they would have said so, but because it had occured 16 years and several months ago, they just said - a tale 16 years old.

No contradictions or mistakes in those two cases.

[Walda]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

If certain event had happened 16 years and several months ago, people won't be saying a sixteen years and months old

But the event we are talking about necessarily happened more than sixteen years and nine months before Robb was born, and Robb is (at the time she said this) sixteen years (and a few days) old. I am questioning why she did not round up (to as much as eighteen years) when the tale was (necessarily) known to her before she married, some seventeen years before.

[Megorova]

11 hours ago, Walda said:

I am questioning why she did not round up (to as much as eighteen years)

She didn't rounded it up because maybe in Ned's household they were annually commemorating anniversary of Rickard's and Brandon's death. They died approximately in late October of 282, and Robb was born approximately in October of 283. Robb turned 16 in ~October of 299, and shortly prior that there was 17th anniversary of R&B's death. So there's zero reasons to round it up to 18 years, because only 17 years (and a few more days or weeks) passed since then.

Edit:

She said 16 years in both cases. Which means that 17th anniversary didn't happened yet, which also means that Robb's birthday is a bit earlier in a year than the date of R&B's death.

Conclusion:

Robb's birthday is in early October, while R&B died in the second half of October. So Cat said a tale 16 years old, because 17 years haven't passed yet.

[Seams]

On 3/6/2021 at 3:51 AM, Walda said:

(ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII)

(ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII)

Is it possible that Brandon was still alive when Robb was conceived?

Two references in the same chapter (and POV) to the sixteen year age of Robb and the "ugly tale" tell me that GRRM is dropping a deliberate clue for us here. Catelyn didn't have to think about the age of the tale to express her unhappiness at hearing the story again; the author put that description in there to pique our interest. 

If we're looking for clues about Robb's paternity, it's probably significant that Brandon Stark was trying in vain to reach a sword when he died. One of Robb's demands is that the sword Ice be returned to him at Riverrun. That never happens, of course. As Lady Stoneheart, Catelyn later examines the sword Oathkeeper, carried by Brienne. We will have to see what happens to Widow's Wail, and whether it comes into the possession of a Stark.

Some of the details surrounding Robb have always struck me as a little off. Hoster Tully says that Robb has his eyes, for instance, and we know that he has Catelyn's red-brown hair. Given the importance of eye color in determining who is related to whom, this strikes me as significant. Ned's eyes are grey. Of course, the heir / hair and Ice / eyes wordplay leads me to think that Robb having Hoster's eyes and Catelyn's hair makes Robb more of a Tully than a Stark. It also strikes me as significant that it is the smith at Riverrun who provides Robb with a crown.

Maybe some of Catelyn's resentment toward Jon Snow is that she knows Robb is not Ned's son so (she suspects) Jon Snow could have a stronger claim to Winterfell. What she doesn't know is that Jon Snow is not really Ned's son, either. If the hints about Robb's paternity are accurate, then Bran is the first-born legitimate son of Catelyn and Ned.

Ned being busy with war might have distracted him from noticing how big Robb was by the time he and Catelyn reached Winterfell after Robert's Rebellion. Or maybe Ned had no sense of how big a child should be at each stage of growth. 

Another variable that might undermine my current suspicions: People in Westeros seem to celebrate a person's "name day." Do we know that this is the same thing as a birthday? Wildlings deliberately wait a year or more before naming a baby because they fear that the baby might die in infancy. I suppose that wouldn't explain Catelyn's reference to the sixteen-year-old tale of Brandon's death, though, even if she is referring to Robb being sixteen years past his name day and not his birthday.

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

18 hours ago, Seams said:

Maybe some of Catelyn's resentment toward Jon Snow is that she knows Robb is not Ned's son

I wouldn´t entertain that idea just because of the many Cat POVs there are without a single hint in Cats thoughts that Robb was not legit. I´d say a mother would think about it occasionally.

Plus Cat is rather furious with Ned for bringing a bastard home, you´d think she would be more forgiving if she had one herself.