Joss Whedon: So Cancelled His Thread Got a Sequel

[Cashless Society]

15 hours ago, Werthead said:

What do people think Whedon will do next? He's already tried the "lay low for a couple of years and then just casually make a new deal for a new show or movie" tactic, which worked when the criticisms of him were vague and non-specific. That's clearly no longer the case, and he seems to have effectively disbarred himself from ever working with Warner Brothers again which likely puts him in the doghouse with any other major studio (Marvel, where he was in talks for a return last year, will likely never employ him again).

The second possibility is to double down on his doucheness, come out with tons of complaints about cancel culture and people not being able to take a joke and Hollywood being too hardcore for snowflake actors and volunteering to direct that Shapiro/Carano movie. This also feels a little unlikely.

The third is a tell-all, exclusive interview where he comes out and tries to apologise and promises to do better and talks about doing therapy and realising the bad choices he made yada yada yada.

The fourth, of course, is that he simply retires and is never heard from again, but at 56 with potentially a 20+ year career in Hollywood ahead of him if he manages some half-convincing apology (and a distressingly large proportion of his fanbase seems willing to excuse his behaviour), that seems unlikely.

I think the best move for Whedon is to go the Mel Gibson route: work with anyone who'll work with you; build some connections with industry insiders; let your colleagues make the arguments for you; after a couple of years, there will be so many controversies that people will have forgotten why you got cancelled in the first place; and finally get welcomed back into the mainstream (he might just even get an Academy Award nomination at the end of all of this). Alternatively, he could just become Polanski 2.0 where people won't let anybody forget this.

[Soylent Brown]

Comparing Whedon to Polanski seems a touch extreme, don't you think?

[Derfel Cadarn]

Probably should be in a general me-too thread, but there’s been a lot of accusations against actor/director/producer Noel Clarke

https://amp.theguardian.com/culture/2021/apr/29/actor-noel-clarke-accused-of-groping-harassment-and-bullying-by-20-women?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true

[Lord Varys]

Having continued with the Marvel movies rewatch - has anybody ever heard an explanation from the creators how the hell it makes sense that Thanos himself handed Loki the sceptre containing the Mind Stone ... when he actually wanted to collect those Infinity Stones himself?

Does this make sense in any scenario? Also, him knowing that the Tesseract contained the Space Stone also makes it kind of weird that he used it just to get his army to Earth when he could have just taken it.

[DaveSumm]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Having continued with the Marvel movies rewatch - has anybody ever heard an explanation from the creators how the hell it makes sense that Thanos himself handed Loki the sceptre containing the Mind Stone ... when he actually wanted to collect those Infinity Stones himself?

Does this make sense in any scenario? Also, him knowing that the Tesseract contained the Space Stone also makes it kind of weird that he used it just to get his army to Earth when he could have just taken it.

In terms of timing, I like the idea that Asgard could’ve stopped Thanos and so he waited until they were out of the picture. It was important that Thanos knew where the stones were and were in the hands of someone he could control, rather than gathering them and putting a target on himself.

But ultimately, it’s a retcon so we can only do what we can.

[RumHam]

Yeah, none of it makes much sense. Why doesn't he just fly his huge ass ship to Earth, kill half the people and take the stones? Why bother with the portal? Why does he bother with Ronan in Guardians? (and then Ronan doesn't even go to Morag himself. He sends the dude whose also in Captain Marvel.)

[Ran]

Best suggestion I've seen is that Thanos had some kind of foreknowledge that giving the sceptre with the stone to Loki would set in motion his ultimately gaining all the Infinity Stones, including the Mind Stone.

[Lord Varys]

So we don't know that any of the creators ever commented on how/why this makes sense?

Also, I reading that the Thanos guy is actually generally viewed as 'a good/complex super villain' when, in my opinion, his actions make no sense at all.

Okay, his own planet's civilization had a problem with overpopulation - big deal ... but why on earth should he care about or assume that others might have the same problem? That would be their business, not Thanos'.

But the really stupid thing is this idea that anyone - even an insane supervillain - would think it was a great idea to kill half of a given planet's - or the entire universe's - population to resolve this problem. This resolves nothing and it is quite obvious since half the population of any given population can and eventually will reach its original size as long as they still can procreate the same way they did before.

Killing half the people is clearly no solution to the imagined problem and that's obvious to anyone thinking about this thing for five second.

Also, it seems pretty clear the point of the invasion of Earth in The Avengers was never to kill half of Earth's population.

8 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

In terms of timing, I like the idea that Asgard could’ve stopped Thanos and so he waited until they were out of the picture. It was important that Thanos knew where the stones were and were in the hands of someone he could control, rather than gathering them and putting a target on himself.

But ultimately, it’s a retcon so we can only do what we can.

I think that could make sense if Thanos had had any hand in the events taking place in Asgard. But he didn't as far as we know. He had nothing to do with Loki's schemes with the frost giants, nor with the Dark Elves and the ether, and also nothing with Odin's death and Hela's return which led to the destruction of Asgard.

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Yeah, none of it makes much sense. Why doesn't he just fly his huge ass ship to Earth, kill half the people and take the stones? Why bother with the portal? Why does he bother with Ronan in Guardians? (and then Ronan doesn't even go to Morag himself. He sends the dude whose also in Captain Marvel.)

I think the Ronan story makes sense insofar as it makes sense that he would use other people to find the Infinity Stones for him ... without them realizing what they are looking for. That Gamora had been looking for the Soul Stone as revealed in Infinity War also makes some sense. And this could even make more sense if Thanos didn't actually know where all the stones are but was just sending lots of people looking for them at various places where they allegedly could be.

The problem for Thanos starts in Guardians of the Galaxy when Ronan realizes that the Orb thingy contained the Power Stone and he took it and was able to wield it. Considering how powerful that thing was it also makes sense that Thanos didn't go immediately after Ronan because he could have killed him now ... as he threatens during his last conversation with Thanos.

59 minutes ago, Ran said:

Best suggestion I've seen is that Thanos had some kind of foreknowledge that giving the sceptre with the stone to Loki would set in motion his ultimately gaining all the Infinity Stones, including the Mind Stone.

I'm not sure that makes much sense as an idea since Loki and the sceptre at best influenced events on Earth to some degree, but had literally nothing to do with the other stones, the Tesseract excluded, of course. Also, until Thanos has the Time Stone, it would make little sense he has any special knowledge about alternative futures and the like.

Also, thinking about, how the Mind Stone in the sceptre would enslave people to do Loki's or the Tesseract's bidding is also kind of strange. As is how the Thanos and his minions could be 'at the other side of the Tesseract' when they were just at another point in space.

[DaveSumm]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think that could make sense if Thanos had had any hand in the events taking place in Asgard. But he didn't as far as we know. He had nothing to do with Loki's schemes with the frost giants, nor with the Dark Elves and the ether, and also nothing with Odin's death and Hela's return which led to the destruction of Asgard.

He doesn’t need to have a hand in it, just know that Hela would return upon Odin’s death, and know that Odin was nearing death. Perhaps his plan A was that a Hela led Asgard wouldn’t interfere with him, but as luck would have it they destroyed Asgard. Or maybe he knew that that was the only way they’d defeat her, and so he wins either way.

[RumHam]

I wonder when he learned the Time Stone was on earth. I would have gone for that one first. Infinite do-overs!

I like the "he didn't want to fuck with Odin" theory but I'm not sure it makes sense. When the Guardians find Thor in Infinity War Thor is aware that Thanos has already taken the power stone from Xandar I wanna say two weeks ago. (which is stupid, they should have told Thor that news.) So when did Thor learn this? Unless their trip to earth was quite long and they heard it on the....space news he must have had this information when Ragnorok starts. Which would mean Thanos moved to obtain the power stone while Odin was alive. 

Also he moves to obtain the Tesseract while Odin is still alive. Odin sends Thor to Earth but he could have come himself.

[polishgenius]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Okay, his own planet's civilization had a problem with overpopulation - big deal ... but why on earth should he care about or assume that others might have the same problem? That would be their business, not Thanos'.

But the really stupid thing is this idea that anyone - even an insane supervillain - would think it was a great idea to kill half of a given planet's - or the entire universe's - population to resolve this problem. This resolves nothing and it is quite obvious since half the population of any given population can and eventually will reach its original size as long as they still can procreate the same way they did before.

 

 

I didn't particularly like the change to Thanos' plan, but 'complexity' doesn't mean his motivations have to make sense. He's still the Mad Titan - just in this instance he's also The Titan Who Thinks His Motivations Are Altruistic.

 

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So we don't know that any of the creators ever commented on how/why this makes sense?

They haven't because they can't because it doesn't. There's been a public-perception-fixation on how the MCU is this wonderfully planned controlled step-by-step construction, but that's only true at very broad levels, and as this board has discussed before several details - quite big ones- changed on the way. One of the things that changed was space travel - phase 1 and 2 implied it to be hard without technology like the Bifrost or Tesseract but GotG needed it to be easier than that and suddenly everyone's jumping about all over the place. Fairly typical comic stuff but you're never gonna explain it.

 

But I'm not sure why we need them to coz a deep commitment to logic and good sense and structure has never been what superhero universes are about

[RumHam]

16 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

One of the things that changed was space travel - phase 1 and 2 implied it to be hard without technology like the Bifrost or Tesseract but GotG needed it to be easier than that and suddenly everyone's jumping about all over the place. Fairly typical comic stuff but you're never gonna explain it.

I like how even when the Bifrost is broken Odin can still send Thor to earth. Loki says something like "how much dark energy did he have to use?" implying maybe some terrible cost to doing this that makes it an emergency measure. You might have even thought "oh, I bet this is what wakes up the Dark Elves and causes the events of Thor: The Dark World." but no. 

Thor's new Ax lets him beam himself wherever he wants to go. I wouldn't be surprised if he never uses that ability again. 

[Fez]

I've never read comics, so maybe it doesn't make much sense there either. But after reading a synopsis of the original story, I think Thanos' motivations would've made more sense, and been more interesting, if he was still trying to court the literal personification of Death. And wiping out half the universe was just about trying to impress her.

[DMC]

19 minutes ago, Fez said:

I think Thanos' motivations would've made more sense, and been more interesting, if he was still trying to court the literal personification of Death. And wiping out half the universe was just about trying to impress her.

Meh, I'll take Thanos simply being a crazed Malthusian over Death being an actual character.

I've also always liked the idea that Thanos was waiting for Odin/Hela to be off the board.  Plus when you think about it, between the reality stone, the tesseract, and creating Vision, Thor did about half Thanos' work for him, then he strikes when he's most vulnerable.

[Ran]

19 minutes ago, Fez said:

I've never read comics, so maybe it doesn't make much sense there either. 

Agreed on that score. Could have been a good path to get into the cosmic side of Marvel, with her, Eternity, Infinity, and the other abstract concepts-made-real.

[polishgenius]

11 minutes ago, DMC said:

I've also always liked the idea that Thanos was waiting for Odin/Hela to be off the board. 

 

 

While it quite clearly isn't what the writers intended I did like this idea from when I first saw it because from their relative displays in their movies, if they fought at any point before Thanos got the final stone Hela would have kicked his dick in. The more abstract fake Dormammu aside, she's by far the most powerful of the villains we've seen in the MCU thus far. Thanos killing half the Asgardians was just needless coz Hela'd already massacred, what, nine tenths of them.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Fez said:

I've never read comics, so maybe it doesn't make much sense there either. But after reading a synopsis of the original story, I think Thanos' motivations would've made more sense, and been more interesting, if he was still trying to court the literal personification of Death. And wiping out half the universe was just about trying to impress her.

Thanos entire plan seems like a joke in the MCU. If you kill half of all the animals and plants in the universe as well, then you really don't increase the resources for anyone. If anything the scales remain exactly the same.

[RumHam]

23 minutes ago, sifth said:

Thanos entire plan seems like a joke in the MCU. If you kill half of all the animals and plants in the universe as well, then you really don't increase the resources for anyone. If anything the scales remain exactly the same.

I know someone at Marvel said half the plants went too, but that makes no sense. We would have seen trees and grass turning to dust in Wakanda. 

I never get tired of overthinking whole snap thing. Imagine a dog had intestinal parasites that got snapped. Then the dog passed away during the five years. Where do the intestinal parasites rematerialize safely?

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Having continued with the Marvel movies rewatch - has anybody ever heard an explanation from the creators how the hell it makes sense that Thanos himself handed Loki the sceptre containing the Mind Stone ... when he actually wanted to collect those Infinity Stones himself?

Does this make sense in any scenario? Also, him knowing that the Tesseract contained the Space Stone also makes it kind of weird that he used it just to get his army to Earth when he could have just taken it.

Hemorrhoids.

[sifth]

27 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I know someone at Marvel said half the plants went too, but that makes no sense. We would have seen trees and grass turning to dust in Wakanda. 

I never get tired of overthinking whole snap thing. Imagine a dog had intestinal parasites that got snapped. Then the dog passed away during the five years. Where do the intestinal parasites rematerialize safely?

The thing that bothers me, is this is such an easy fix in the script. All Thanos would have to say is half of all "sentient" life in the universe would be erased and suddenly his plan would make a whole lot more sense.