Joss Whedon: So Cancelled His Thread Got a Sequel

[Poobah]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

That’s aggressive.  Almost every great TV series you can think of was not created with a set and definite ending in mind. 

Maybe they should be. Most of the failures (HIMYM aside) were created without any kind of ending in mind.

The ones I can think of that ended well either did have an ending in mind or were well enough written that I didn't notice and it felt like a natural end.

So many of these "no ending in mind" shows justt kinda meandered around and increasingly obviously made shit up as they went along in the style of BSG and Lost. I feel like this is an inherent problem with US network TV where the shows are fighting for ratings/renewal and writing/filming to intense deadlines episode-to-episode. How this applies more specifically to SFF shows is that it seems to me that they're more niche in their audiences and so have more stress/higher chances of cancellation while also tending to strive to tell bigger stories, which results in more mess and more frequent bad endings as they either have to wrap up super fast, don't actually even get to do some kinda finale, or have been leaving plot threads in every season hinting at an ending just in case they need to pull the ejector lever and end it in a hurry and then are incapable of actually turning all those hanging threads into a cohesive thing.

[Heartofice]

Agree, I think the network tv model at the time contributed a lot to these failures to land because what network is going to want to kill their cash cow. Watching the rotting bloated corpse of the Simpsons is a good example of this.

Maybe the higher end subscription models like HBO allowed for something more planned.. maybe.

Im not sure how the streaming model fits into it though, Netflix can be absolutely brutal in its cancellations

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I get that this is the official story. It seems like a non-sequitur to me. I wonder if there wasn't something else going on.

Excuse me, the trolling went on for years. He was harassed off social media. Over a television show? Come on.

Lost is the ultimate case of having your cake and eating it too. During as early as the first season, most fans guessed the characters were all dead, which forced David Lindelof to write something new and he settled on having them being dead, but only for about half of the final season. It's sort of one of those cases of the show runner saying "see you didn't guess right". The whole thing should have been no longer than 5 seasons tops, IMO

These days, a lot of shows that have good endings are anthology shows. Seasons 1 and 2 of Fargo are masterpieces, IMO.

The Good Place had a really nice ending as well.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

46 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I'm one of the 50 people in the world who thinks the Game of Thrones ending was pretty good

The ending of GOT wasn’t the problem.  The pace of the last season was the problem it ment the ending came out of the clear blue sky.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Watchmen was pretty good too.

They had to seriously retcon what Dr. Manhattan was for that to work.  I enjoyed the series but the ending of the series undermined the point of the Graphic Novel.

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, Darryk said:

There's certainly never been a sci fi / fantasy series with a satisfying ending.

Babylon 5, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine, Blake's 7, Firefly as it stands (especially after hearing what their plans were for Season 2), Fringe, Les Revanants, Cowboy Bebop and now The Expanse all come to mind immediately.

Quote

I uhh … liked the ending of Lost. Rewatched it recently and it works so much better without the weight of scrutiny on it, you can just relax and enjoy it. And the episode quality over all six seasons was incredibly high, there are very few bad episodes. Add in Watchmen, Leftovers … I’m totally on board with whatever Lindelof makes next.

Yup, Lost's ending is mostly fine. Contrary to the memes, they answered ~90% of the mysteries they set up over the course of the show and only really choked on the "what is the Island?" question, which I think was probably a question with no satisfying answers. The flash-sideways/purgatory subplot in Season 6 was weak and pointless, as was the imprisonment story at the start of Season 3 and a whole bunch of individual episodes, but overall Lost hangs together pretty well and is immensely improved by a binge watch.

Battlestar Galactica's ending is actually made worse by binging, though, because you have much clearer and more recent memories of all the setup work in earlier seasons for the ending which now makes absolutely zero sense (the constellations in the Tomb of Athena, most notably), and the bizarrely Luddite ending which betrays one of the fundaments of the series, that the inhabitants can't agree on anything and riot at the first available opportunity, and now they're fine with dumping their technology to go screw cavemen?

Defenders of BSGs ending are usually only able to mount a defence on the "well 'God' has been a thing since the first episode," ignoring that the deus ex machina issues are among the least of the finale's problems, and the problems are more about the entire second half of the series rather than the finale alone.

Although I've often said that I would love to see a show which asks the "faith vs. science" question like BSG and Lost and "faith alone" is mercilessly, remorselessly crushed to oblivion in favour of a rational explanation.

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

And that justifies years of harassment?

No, no. You're right. People should totally keep that up. The endgame will be a cultural diet created not by people who have a vision or maybe a shred of talent; but by people selected for their ability to take abuse.  

Well done, Nerds. That'll do, Nerds.  

Yeah, you can just stop putting words in my mouth. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

33 minutes ago, sifth said:

Lost is the ultimate case of having your cake and eating it too. During as early as the first season, most fans guessed the characters were all dead, which forced David Lindelof to write something new and he settled on having them being dead, but only for about half of the final season. It's sort of one of those cases of the show runner saying "see you didn't guess right". The whole thing should have been no longer than 5 seasons tops, IMO

These days, a lot of shows that have good endings are anthology shows. Seasons 1 and 2 of Fargo are masterpieces, IMO.

The Good Place had a really nice ending as well.

 Lost is still on my list of things to see... 

It's all good. Can't expect spoiler tags if the show ended a decade ago.

22 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

They had to seriously retcon what Dr. Manhattan was for that to work.  I enjoyed the series but the ending of the series undermined the point of the Graphic Novel.

That, and there were a few too many maguffins and deus ex machina moments for my liking. Still pretty solid. I tuned in every week.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

22 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Yeah, you can just stop putting words in my mouth. 

Let's recap. You said:

5 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Yeah, and most of the shit flung at Lindelof over Lost was entirely justified.

To which I responded:

2 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Excuse me, the trolling went on for years. He was harassed off social media. Over a television show? Come on.

To which you doubled down:

2 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Yeah, and that was why I said most of that shit. Specifically, his hack-like qualities as a writer.

I put nothing, nowhere.

[sifth]

20 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Babylon 5, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine, Blake's 7, Firefly as it stands (especially after hearing what their plans were for Season 2), Fringe, Les Revanants, Cowboy Bebop and now The Expanse all come to mind immediately.

Yup, Lost's ending is mostly fine. Contrary to the memes, they answered ~90% of the mysteries they set up over the course of the show and only really choked on the "what is the Island?" question, which I think was probably a question with no satisfying answers. The flash-sideways/purgatory subplot in Season 6 was weak and pointless, as was the imprisonment story at the start of Season 3 and a whole bunch of individual episodes, but overall Lost hangs together pretty well and is immensely improved by a binge watch.

Yea, I don't think that's true at all. They left the mysteries vague, so fans could debate of them for years to come. Like the magic light in the middle of the island, the one that the old lady says everyone has a little in them, but always wants more. "Maybe it's time", "Maybe it's happiness" "maybe it's this other random thing", the fact is, no answer was given. That's how I recall most of the "answers" on that show being given.

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

 Lost is still on my list of things to see... 

It's all good. Can't expect spoiler tags if the show ended a decade ago.

That, and there were a few too many maguffins and deus ex machina moments for my liking. Still pretty solid. I tuned in every week.

Sorry man, but the way you were talking about the show, made me think you saw it all. Watch for yourself one day and see if the hate is justified. I fall somewhere in the middle on this, because I'm not a huge fan of people lying to their fans, like he did, when he said he had an answer for all the mysteries and they weren't just making it up as the went. On the other hand, I hate the eye for an eye mentality as well, it's one of my biggest issues with cancel culture as a whole.

[Spockydog]

2 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Let's recap. You said:

To which I responded:

To which you doubled down:

I put nothing, nowhere.

To be clear, I was referring to the genuine, deserved criticism he receive for some of his most heinous writing crimes. You know, articles in the press, that kind of thing. All this other stuff you are referring to? I have no direct knowledge of any of it, and if I did, it it doesn't sound like anything I would condone. 

Now, calm the fuck down, why don't you. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

That, and there were a few too many maguffins and deus ex machina moments for my liking. Still pretty solid. I tuned in every week.

I binged the whole series in 2 days.  It wasn’t “bad” I just disliked the possibility of containing a being with “G”odlike powers.  It didn’t make sense.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Just now, sifth said:

Sorry man, but the way you were talking about the show, made me think you saw it all. Watch for yourself one day and see if the hate is justified. I fall somewhere in the middle on this, because I'm not a huge fan of people lying to their fans, like he did, when he said he had an answer for all the mysteries and they weren't just making it up as the went. On the other hand, I hate the eye for an eye mentality as well, it's one of my biggest issues with cancel culture as a whole.

It's cool. All I know about that show is that people are trapped on desert island and the series finale really pissed people off. And it has something to do with philosophy or something. People have recommended it to me in the past but I just haven't gotten around to it. 

[polishgenius]

With Watchmen I'd say it had a good ending taken completely in its own right but as Scott said it did rather piss on the ending of the book, which takes it down some notches. Still an overall worthwhile show, but the ending was the weakest part. 


 

37 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Although I've often said that I would love to see a show which asks the "faith vs. science" question like BSG and Lost and "faith alone" is mercilessly, remorselessly crushed to oblivion in favour of a rational explanation.

 

What if the rational explanation is 'a wizard did it'? 

 

 

[Fez]

26 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Babylon 5, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine, Blake's 7, Firefly as it stands (especially after hearing what their plans were for Season 2), Fringe, Les Revanants, Cowboy Bebop and now The Expanse all come to mind immediately.

Also: Futurama (it counts!), Orphan Black, Farscape (counting the movie that eventually came out to resolve the cliffhanger), and The Prisoner (I know it was hated at the time, but it fit the show) as a few more. Plus a ton of anime beyond just Cowboy Bebop.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

2 minutes ago, Fez said:

Also: Futurama (it counts!), Orphan Black, Farscape (counting the movie that eventually came out to resolve the cliffhanger), and The Prisoner (I know it was hated at the time, but it fit the show) as a few more. Plus a ton of anime beyond just Cowboy Bebop.

The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy? Too soon?

The Clone Wars got a brilliant ending, thanks to Disney reviving the show for a final season. Gave me chills.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

14 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

To be clear, I was referring to the genuine, deserved criticism he receive for some of his most heinous writing crimes. You know, articles in the press, that kind of thing. All this other stuff you are referring to? I have no direct knowledge of any of it, and if I did, it it doesn't sound like anything I would condone. 

Now, calm the fuck down, why don't you. 

We were talking past each other then.

I'm perfectly calm, Dude.

Woof.

[john]

Ashes to Ashes/Life on Mars has an ending which perfectly fits with the events of the series. Didn’t like it much myself because it is doing the faith vs logic thing but can’t deny it makes sense.

[Kalbear]

5 hours ago, Darryk said:

There's certainly never been a sci fi / fantasy series with a satisfying ending.

I thought GoT would be the one but damn if that wasn't the worst of all of them.

COUGH B5 COUGH