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Joss Whedon: So Cancelled His Thread Got a Sequel


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I think it's meant to mean that she's a secret racist who's been masquerading as progressive via (presumably) dry, snappy, self-aware pop-culture.

I think the two problems with that are that (1) however annoying she is it's problematic at best to compare a Jewish person to a known anti-semite for the sake of cheap heat, and (2) I've never seen anything she's done but I have problems believing Lena Dunham has ever been self-aware in her life.

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1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

(1) however annoying she is it's problematic at best to compare a Jewish person to a known anti-semite for the sake of cheap heat

Yeah this is pretty cringeworthy.  If you're saying someone is like a bunch of Mel Gibsons, I'm gonna think drunk anti-semite (who are also maybe masochistic).

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Hollywood has always been abusive, racist, cruel, etc., particularly to women.  However it is a big mistake to think screen history doesn't have  women, younger, and older, who objected in all the eras about their treatment.  A lot of them made the choice to object, and, generally, they disappeared.  Their career was over, and no one talked about it.  Note how JW threatened the women he abused that he could do this to them -- which was a part of his abuse. 

Other women, like Delphine Seyrig in the Beat film, Pull My Daisy (1959) from a Jack Kerouac play >!<, just up and started a feminist movement among actresses before the term 'feminism' was invented.   It was sexist as hell and horrible the way the woman was portrayed, and she objected.  Fortunately for her, she was able to continue her French career (as in now classics, such as the 1961 Last Year in Marienbad) -- but mostly, when women did things like that, as said, they disappeared.  There is a great deal of this in film history.

Others, well, they put up with it in order to have a career.  Though more often than not, being a noncomplainer didn't get the women significant careers either.

Which is why one really applauds a Gal Gadot who refused to put up with the shyte and took it right to the top -- and it was good timing too.  But maybe more to the point, even men complained about JW's abusive bs.

 

 

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I marvel at this. I really do. I look at showrunners like Naren Shankar and David Kemper and Brad Wright, who all ran big, complicated shows, and still managed to behave professionally.

Which leads me to the wonderful interview Tom Hanks gave back in 2017 on this topic:

 

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4 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I think it's meant to mean that she's a secret racist who's been masquerading as progressive via (presumably) dry, snappy, self-aware pop-culture.

I think the two problems with that are that (1) however annoying she is it's problematic at best to compare a Jewish person to a known anti-semite for the sake of cheap heat, and (2) I've never seen anything she's done but I have problems believing Lena Dunham has ever been self-aware in her life.

Low key antisemitism isn't Gibsons only problem. The voicemails his girlfriend recorded are also pretty unhinged. 

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Hollywood has always been abusive, racist, cruel, etc., particularly to women.  However it is a big mistake to think screen history doesn't have  women, younger, and older, who objected in all the eras about their treatment.  A lot of them made the choice to object, and, generally, they disappeared.  Their career was over, and no one talked about it.  Note how JW threatened the women he abused that he could do this to them -- which was a part of his abuse. 

History is history. One would expect some progress in this area, not just an ebb and flow. 

What's especially problematic about Whedon is that he was held up as a feminist icon. In 2006 he was even presented an award by Meryl Streep no less. In her introduction she praised him as, "The wonderful man who's about to bring us Wonder Woman." Oof.

Little did she know that about a decade later Wonder Woman would debut on the big screen thanks to a guy many social media progressives think is the fucking antichrist. And that WW's relationship with Joss would end up being "complicated". He would sexualize her in a way the antichrist never did* and she would go on to. Slay. Him.

And I'll hear no bashing of Meryl Streep. No, Sir or Madam. Give her all the awards, I say. And the keys to my heart. :bowdown:

* Apparently a particular point of friction during the reshoots was the Flash using WW as a boob trampoline; a gag recycled from Avengers AoU. 

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2 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

What's especially problematic about Whedon is that he was held up as a feminist icon. In 2006 he was even presented an award by Meryl Streep no less. In her introduction she praised him as, "The wonderful man who's about to bring us Wonder Woman." Oof.

Which is why so many are so furious now.

I dunno.  Myself, well, thought that jw feminism in Buffy was pretty much not feminist in all kinds of ways, just as Firefly wasn't -- with a whole lot of other troubles too. We're talking about the time these things aired, mresponse to this didn't come later, but was as I saw them.  And then came Doll House.  Though I've never quite figured out what Eliza Dushku was doing with that -- beyond she had no career and was desperate.  The one thing I saw her in after, that film about CA winemakers -- she was so embarrassing, and still doing all those squirmy Faith hoppity hops.

Having spent as much time as I have with bold face artists and producers of all kinds, I honestly can say it is NOT NECESSARY TO BE AN ASSHOLE OR ABUSER to create top of the line work.

There is one thing I will try and give JW credit for: of all the ARC Prestige TV series, only Buffy actually wrapped, and wrapped right at the conclusion. Angel did too sort of.  But Lost, etc. -- they just petered out.

EDITED to the add bolded, since people can't be expected to read what isn't there.

Edited by Zorral
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18 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Which is why so many are so furious now.

 

There is one thing I will try and give JW credit for: of all the series, only Buffy actually wrapped, and wrapped right at the conclusion. Angel did too sort of.  But Lost, etc. -- they just petered out.

 

Joss Whedon wasn't involved with Lost, as far as I know. He's also responsible for getting Angel canceled, because he demanded an early renewal from the WB and they refused him. Had he just waited a few months, odds are the show would simply be renewed by the WB, but by trying to force them to renew the show early, he inadvertently got the show canceled instead.

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21 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Which is why so many are so furious now.

I dunno.  Myself, well, thought that jw feminism in Buffy was pretty much not feminist in all kinds of ways, just as Firefly wasn't -- with a whole lot of other troubles too. We're talking about the time these things aired, mresponse to this didn't come later, but was as I saw them.  And then came Doll House.  Though I've never quite figured out what Eliza Dushku was doing with that -- beyond she had no career and was desperate.  The one thing I saw her in after, that film about CA winemakers -- she was so embarrassing, and still doing all those squirmy Faith hoppity hops.

Having spent as much time as I have with bold face artists and producers of all kinds, I honestly can say it is NOT NECESSARY TO BE AN ASSHOLE OR ABUSER to create top of the line work.

There is one thing I will try and give JW credit for: of all the series, only Buffy actually wrapped, and wrapped right at the conclusion. Angel did too sort of.  But Lost, etc. -- they just petered out.

 

She had subsequent issues of her own.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/eliza-dushku-calls-cbs-denial-spin-bull-settlement-1170871/

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1 hour ago, sifth said:

Joss Whedon wasn't involved with Lost, as far as I know. He's also responsible for getting Angel canceled, because he demanded an early renewal from the WB and they refused him. Had he just waited a few months, odds are the show would simply be renewed by the WB, but by trying to force them to renew the show early, he inadvertently got the show canceled instead.

 I DID NOT SAY JW HAD ANYTHING TO DO W/LOST, Etc.  .  Buffy, and to some extent Angel, are among the very few arc shows that came to a real conclusion and wrapping IS WHAT I SAID. Get a gdded grip folks.  Sheesh, just trying to give JW credit for something becomes an issue w/ his tru believers that JW never did anything wrong, and it's all THEM and THEIR fault.

DMC you didn't read either, df.  Expect more of you.

Edited by Zorral
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46 minutes ago, Zorral said:

 I DID NOT SAY JW HAD ANYTHING TO DO W/LOST, Etc.  .  Buffy, and to some extent Angel, are among the very few arc shows that came to a real conclusion and wrapping IS WHAT I SAID. Get a gdded grip folks.  Sheesh, just trying to give JW credit for something becomes an issue w/ his tru believers that JW never did anything wrong, and it's all THEM and THEIR fault.

DMC you didn't read either, df.  Expect more of you.

Yeah, I took your point the way it was phrased initially . It's notoriously difficult to adequately cap off a serialized TV story. Rome and Breaking Bad on the one hand, Battlestar Galactica on the other. I've never seen Lost but I heard the screaming over the final episode. Lindelof took shit for years over that.

I'm sure Whedon will get plenty of script writing jobs once this blows over. I can't see him being a show runner or direct a movie ever again. 

Edited by Deadlines? What Deadlines?
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To be honest I think BSG had less to do with problems wrapping up a long serial (though they did make some bad decisions along the way based round stringing the plot on that probably did factor in to some of the issues the finale) and more to do with people expecting a more rational, SF ending based on the gritty tone despite BSG also being a show that was very about faith and religion from the very start. 
But I never thought it was as bad as often made out anyway.


I didn't know about the Angel early renewal request being the reason for cancellation but fuck me all the clues were there all along, weren't they? What a chode.

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3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I didn't know about the Angel early renewal request being the reason for cancellation but fuck me all the clues were there all along, weren't they? What a chode.

From David Fury, the source of that information:

Quote

Because our ratings were up, because of our critical attention, Joss specifically asked Jordan Levin, who was the head of The WB at the time, to give us an early pick-up because every year they [would] wait so long to give Angel a pick-up [and] a lot of us [would] turn down jobs hoping that Angel will continue - he didn't want that to happen.  

As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And it worked in the sense that the early cancellation gave them time to both wrap up the show really well, and made sure people weren't turning down offers for new work on the expectation there'd be another season. It's also in hindsight that it looks like a bad move, and no one really knows whether WB would actually have gone a late renewal -- just speculation.

Honestly, I find it hard to envision a season 6 for Angel. It ended really well, I've always thought.

Edited by Ran
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3 hours ago, Ran said:

From David Fury, the source of that information:

As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And it worked in the sense that the early cancellation gave them time to both wrap up the show really well, and made sure people weren't turning down offers for new work on the expectation there'd be another season. It's also in hindsight that it looks like a bad move, and no one really knows whether WB would actually have gone a late renewal -- just speculation.

Honestly, I find it hard to envision a season 6 for Angel. It ended really well, I've always thought.

Did it though? Nothing really gets resolved. Wolfram & Hart declares full scale war on Angel's group and sends an army to kill them. Angel makes a joke about always wanting to fight a dragon and cut to black. That honestly doesn't seem like a very satisfying ending to me. If anything that seems like the type of ending you give to a show leading into it's final season.

Angel's story from that final does continue in comic form, which I've heard was really good and deals with many of the lose ends the shows final season didn't get a chance to take care of. I've not gotten a chance to read it myself yet, but a friend of mine tells me it's really good.

@Zorral

Sorry about the mistake.

Edited by sifth
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54 minutes ago, sifth said:

Did it though? Nothing really gets resolved. Wolfram & Hart declares full scale war on Angel's group and sends an army to kill them

Wesley dead, Gun dying, and their going out in a blaze of heroic glory - which they probably won’t survive, but you never know — worked really well for me as a finale. I read the comic and it is fine, but it in no way matches the high points of the final season and its finale, and to some degree getting to see the “And then this happened” thing sort of devalues the message of the finale.
 

Angel’s final season is stronger than Buffy’s, IMO.  A lot more memorable to me.

Edited by Ran
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9 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

It's notoriously difficult to adequately cap off a serialized TV story. Rome and Breaking Bad on the one hand, Battlestar Galactica on the other. I've never seen Lost but I heard the screaming over the final episode. Lindelof took shit for years over that.

 

Yeah, and most of the shit flung at Lindelof over Lost was entirely justified. Same with Moore for BSG, although putting aside my writerly problems with how that show ended up, by the time the end actually came, I was hugely invested in the characters, especially Adama & Roslin. So much life. I cried like a baby while Adama sat on that mountain describing the sunrise to his recently deceased wife.

So if I was a TV exec, and a writer came to me with an amazing show idea, brilliant premise, interesting characters etc, my first question would be, 'Sounds great. How does it end?'

And if their answer contained anything remotely like the Final Five or that Jimmy Hendrix nonsense, they would be told to cut down on the gak and get the actual fucking fuck out of here with that ridiculous bullshit.

 

Edited by Spockydog
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