Joss Whedon: So Cancelled His Thread Got a Sequel

[BigFatCoward]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

She's not Joss Whedon's publicist.  She's entitled to make whatever statement she wants.  Blaming her because people may jump to conclusions based on her statement is some seriously fucked up ethics.

Me too. Leaving an allegation open like that is worse than any bullying in terms of what is bad behavior in my opinion. 

[BigFatCoward]

5 minutes ago, Week said:

Or he did do something inappropriate and you are demanding that she re-live a trauamatic event because of your concern over "rampant speculation".

Get over it -- she doesn't owe anyone shit.

Contextualizing many of these incidents and discussions to a personal and non-celebrity level is misguided IMO and most often leads to these types of wholly inappropriate demands of people who may have been victimized.

Word soup. 

[Heartofice]

Personally the only conclusion I drew from her statement was an accusation of sexually inappropriate behaviour. The use of the word inappropriate is rather telling 

[mormont]

2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Me too. Leaving an allegation open like that is worse than any bullying in terms of what is bad behavior in my opinion. 

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but this is a very bad opinion.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Leaving an allegation open like that is worse than any bullying in terms of what is bad behavior in my opinion. 

Well I'm glad the bullies have you on their side then.

[BigFatCoward]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Well I'm glad the bullies have you on their side then.

A wise man once told me when you are arguing with someone and they say something so ridiculous that you cant make them look anymore stupid than they have made themselves look,  just leave them to it. 

[BigFatCoward]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but this is a very bad opinion.

Bullying is worse than an allegation that some people could construe as paedophilia? 

I'll come and bully you, then tar you with that brush, then you let me know which one felt worse. So dumb. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

A wise man once told me when you are arguing with someone and they say something so ridiculous that you cant make them look anymore stupid than they have made themselves look,  just leave them to it. 

Nah, you calling Trachtenberg disgusting for making a vague statement was so stupid it was worth responding to.

[Week]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Well I'm glad the bullies have you on their side then.

-- and making it abundantly clear. Bullies and enablers.

 

2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

A wise man once told me when you are arguing with someone and they say something so ridiculous that you cant make them look anymore stupid than they have made themselves look,  just leave them to it. 

Your continued flailing suggests that you don't know who you are in that quote.

[Ran]

I can't help but note that he calls the act of leaving the statement dangling for speculation disgusting. He's ventured no opinion on Trachtenberg as a person, near as I can tell.

But if we want to say that "This is a bad statement = this is a bad person", I guess I need to review some threads for potential warnings and suspensions.

[Week]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

It's incredibly vague. Was he shouting and screaming at her. Or was it something far more sinister. If it is only extremely aggressive asshole behaviour, leaving the potential allegation of something much more inappropriate hanging is disgusting. No way she doesnt know that is how some people are going to interpret that statement. 

44 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Rampant speculation she started. She made a statement that to many people read like Whedon is a fucking paedophile, she could just say 'I dont want to go into specifics but for clarity Joss Whedon did not behave is a sexually inappropriate way towards me'.  

Even if he is the vilest bully on earth, can you imagine a significant portion of your friends and family hearing something like this about you if it's not true. 

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

I can't help but note that he calls the act of leaving the statement dangling for speculation disgusting. He's ventured no opinion on Trachtenberg as a person, near as I can tell.

But if we want to say that "This is a bad statement = this is a bad person", I guess I need to review some threads for potential warnings and suspensions.

I mean, it's hard to not read this thread as impugning her character as a result of his opinion of the act. The second post above suggesting that she has a responsibility to clarify clearly goes beyond. YMMV apparently.

To attack an action by a potential victim in the midst of a discussion about potential victims of sexual harassment or trauma seems pretty foolish on its face. Certainly affirms the reasoning as to why victims often do not come forward and are treated terribly when they do.

[DMC]

18 minutes ago, Ran said:

But if we want to say that "This is a bad statement = this is a bad person", I guess I need to review some threads for potential warnings and suspensions.

I hope you have a "select all" button.

[BigFatCoward]

Just now, Week said:

I mean, it's hard to not read this thread as impugning her character as a result of his opinion of the act. The second post above suggesting that she has a responsibility to clarify clearly goes beyond. YMMV apparently.

To attack an action by a potential victim in the midst of a discussion about potential victims of sexual harassment or trauma seems pretty foolish on its face. Certainly affirms the reasoning as to why victims often do not come forward and are treated terribly when they do.

If she was a victim I feel incredibly sorry for her. I have no reason to doubt that she was treated unfairly. And on the balance of probabilities I would go with 'whedon is a bullying prick'. But I cant remotely agree with an allegation that could be construed as him being a paedo unless he is  

[Ran]

Just now, DMC said:

I hope you have a "select all" button.

I actually do. Heh.

 

 

[Week]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

If she was a victim I feel incredibly sorry for her. I have no reason to doubt that she was treated unfairly. And on the balance of probabilities I would go with 'whedon is a bullying prick'. But I cant remotely agree with an allegation that could be construed as him being a paedo unless he is  

The bold is your assumption and your bad opinion is based off your assumption. D'ya see the challenge there or nah? The possibility of the underlined -- or at least pretty inappropriate behavior beyond 'bullying prick' -- exists. You've decided "probably not". To which others say "maybe and, if so, let's not pile on the potential victim". Not challenging to understand.

[Week]

Just now, Mr Gordo said:

This. It always astounds me when someone speaks up about a traumatic event, even going so far as to say it difficult to talk about, and people want a 20 page detailed account. What the fuck.

Which is then carefully dissected for it's consistency, veracity, tone, etc. etc. It's a no win situation.

[BigFatCoward]

4 minutes ago, Mr Gordo said:

This. It always astounds me when someone speaks up about a traumatic event, even going so far as to say it difficult to talk about, and people want a 20 page detailed account. What the fuck.

Nonononono. If someone makes a statement that the court of the internet could take as an allegation of paedophilia, and that isnt actually what happened, they could release a one sentence statement clearing that up. 

[Ran]

Can we stop mis-stating one another's arguments? Who wanted a 20 page account? No one  at all. Charisma Carpenter said a lot in two pages, and there's very little questioning that Whedon did in fact berate her, and it was well-known for years that Whedon and others were angry at her. In fact, a lot of what she stated was already known. The 1 AM thing is new, some of her personal health issues are new, but she's been telling people for about a decade that she was unhappy with how things went and felt she was treated poorly and unfairly. The really new thing is that some other actors suggested they had some kind of experiences in the same wheelhouse.

I agree that Trachtenberg owes nothing, but because of the vast spectrum of things that could be encompassed within it, it's simply not worth speculating on.

Although, look,  since everyone else here seems intent on speculating to favor their priors: the fact that many of the people who "knew the story" of whatever MT meant regarding not having her alone in an office with Joss continued to work with him, including Marti Noxon who was the actual show runner for two of the three seasons in which Trachtenberg was involved and who had no problem saying now that he was indeed an ass towards Carpenter while also in the recent past being willing to call out Matt Weiner for harassing a female writer, provides some potential reason to believe the statement is not suggesting anything sexually untoward.

 

[Ran]

Yeah, that's enough for now. We can start up a fresh one when there's worthwhile news.

[Ran]

So, this is coming back because there has been some worthwhile news since, but I want to make it clear that I'm prepared to give people bans if they become uncivil in further discussion. If you dislike a person's argument so much that you dislike them, have done and put them on ignore.

So, the news is this piece from Adam B Vary and and Elizabeth Wagmeister at Variety in which they interviewed 11 anonymous people who were "high up" at Buffy and/or Angel (seemingly production side executives rather than actors). Most everyone who has spoken publicly apparently refused to add further comment. However, it touches on a number of things. And I've some thoughts:

1) I think we can put to bed any notions that Whedon sexually or physically assaulted Michelle Trachtenberg. The whole context of the article, the remarks from everyone quoted and every source, is that Whedon could be cutting and mean-spirited -- an asshole or a bully, if you will -- towards actors, and that the atmosphere of the set was generally raunchy due to the very long, late hours, so much so that Trachtenberg's mother complained. @mormont was quite right that the idea of keeping her away from Joss was unwritten and, apparently, something unofficial from the cast because a number of their sourcest said they were unaware of it. My guess is that Whedon chewed her out at some point and Trachtenberg's colleagues decided she needed someone with her if Whedon ever wanted to do that again, just to try and keep him from going overboard.

2) The interview I cited from 2003 seems really relevant in understanding what happened. Whedon botched setting the tone early, and it led both to an over-correction into bullying but it also fed into his ego (the "cult of personality") which exacerbated the problem. His affairs definitely did not help.

3) I think the Charisma Carpenter dynamics are interesting because I did not realize that Whedon may have resented her initially and that set the tone of their relationship. That said, the article really should note that Whedon disliked her so much ... that he made her second on the call sheet on his 2nd show. I think the import of the information about Carpenter being pushed by the network is that the unhealthy environment driven by long hours and initial start of their relationship on the wrong foot was distant enough that he gave her a substantial promotion... but it left a mark, and led to his turning on her as soon as she did something wrong (by which I mean the failure to deliver the information of her pregnancy in a timely fashion, blowing up weeks of critical effort specifically designed to make producing three shows simultaneously manageable for Whedon and Mutant Enemy).

4) I do not know what to make of the thing about Gellar having a " severed relationship" with Whedon "early" in the run. I have no idea how that show could continue 4-5 years if there was so much animosity. I feel like the word is badly chosen (perhaps they meant strained), because to me it implies something really broken that doesn't make sense given what happened.  My read is that the anecdote of not wanting to hear his name was some occasional, blowing-off-steam thing and not actually how things were day-in and day-out for the rest of the series because... like, how was that even possible? That said, everyone has always called Gellar a real professional, and a lot of the actors have said that she made clear she left work at work and didn't really mingle very much with them outside of the set. If anything, she seems to have been above whatever drama there was among the other actors (and it sure seems there was drama between actors caused by the environment Whedon created, reading between the lines, just no one is talking about it)

Last thing I'll say is that Buffy and Angel were so intertwined that bad vibes from Buffy obviously followed Carpenter on to Angel. That said, so far everyone from Firefly, Dollhouse, Serenity, and the Avengers films who have spoken up at all about Whedon, past or present, suggests that that the bullying behavior did not continue on those productions. I suspect that Whedon took the opportunity to "reset" his attitude and those shows and films benefited from it. What happened on Justice League... well, we don't really know what happened, but it was a challenging situation and environment to enter, and that clearly seems to be the exact situation where Whedon was not at his best. Per HBO, they had no complaints on The Nevers.

End of the day, Whedon owes some people sincere apologies. It seems he's capable of running perfectly reasonable working environments, and he should stick to that.