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Why would Barristan Selmy need to be pardoned?


Mad King Bolton

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First of all, sorry, I posted this by accident in a different section, hoping for replies here.

I've known Barristan's story well enough over the years and am near the end of a Storm of Swords where Jaime is looking at the White Book and reading over Barristan's page.  It notes his deeds and that he was wounded fighting beside his Sword Brothers and Prince Rhaegar and the next sentence says "pardoned".  So, for some reason it just clicked now that it seems strange and incorrect that he would need to be pardoned by the new king.  He would need to perhaps swear fealty, but he fought for the lawful king against a rebellion, he did his sword duty and nearly died for it.  The fact that  Robert won and had Selmy healed and restored is a good gesture for his honour, but why would he need a pardon?  Maybe it's just my understanding of the word, but it seems incorrectly used for anyone who fought against a rebellion.

In the Blackfyre rebellion, the lords who fought with the Blackfyre's were exiled (or went into exile) after defeat, but they were rebels so it makes sense.  Anyone in that case who fought honourably and then bent the knee could be pardoned.  Curious what others think or if I'm missing something else?

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25 minutes ago, Mad King Bolton said:

 

First of all, sorry, I posted this by accident in a different section, hoping for replies here.

I've known Barristan's story well enough over the years and am near the end of a Storm of Swords where Jaime is looking at the White Book and reading over Barristan's page.  It notes his deeds and that he was wounded fighting beside his Sword Brothers and Prince Rhaegar and the next sentence says "pardoned".  So, for some reason it just clicked now that it seems strange and incorrect that he would need to be pardoned by the new king.  He would need to perhaps swear fealty, but he fought for the lawful king against a rebellion, he did his sword duty and nearly died for it.  The fact that  Robert won and had Selmy healed and restored is a good gesture for his honour, but why would he need a pardon?  Maybe it's just my understanding of the word, but it seems incorrectly used for anyone who fought against a rebellion.

In the Blackfyre rebellion, the lords who fought with the Blackfyre's were exiled (or went into exile) after defeat, but they were rebels so it makes sense.  Anyone in that case who fought honourably and then bent the knee could be pardoned.  Curious what others think or if I'm missing something else?

History is written by the victors. Plus maybe Barristan was having one of those moments where he clicked to the fact that he was a key figure in allowing both Rhaegar and Aerys to take things as far as they did. Maybe he wanted a pardon for his failures so he wrote it into the White Book.

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He might need a pardon for treason against Aerys - he had sworn to protect him and serve him, not to surrender to Robert as soon as Rhaegar was dead.

Jaime was pardoned for betraying (and killing) Aerys. All the other Kingsguard died fighting Aerys enemies, or protecting those he ordered them to protect (I think, because in both Ned's dreams and Jaime's they were quite self-rightous on the subject of keeping their vows)

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8 hours ago, Walda said:

He might need a pardon for treason against Aerys - he had sworn to protect him and serve him, not to surrender to Robert as soon as Rhaegar was dead.

Jaime was pardoned for betraying (and killing) Aerys. All the other Kingsguard died fighting Aerys enemies, or protecting those he ordered them to protect (I think, because in both Ned's dreams and Jaime's they were quite self-rightous on the subject of keeping their vows)

Please give any evidence that Selmy surrendered to Robert as soon as Rhaegar was dead.

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Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I Baratheon.

(ASoS Ch67 Jaime VIII)

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Before I took Robert’s pardon I fought against him on the Trident.

(ASoS Ch57 Daenerys V)

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"even Rhaegar could be slain. Robert proved that on the Trident, with no more than a warhammer. Even dragons can die.”

(ACoK, Ch27 Daenarys II)

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Ned replied. “On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert’s friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, ‘I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,’ and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan’s wounds.”

(AGoT Ch33 Eddard VIII)

I inferred that Barristan had been fighting beside or near Rhaegar (I am not giving so much creedence to the "fighting beside his sworn brothers" bit, because as far as we know, the only other member of the Kingsguard on the Trident was Martell, who had been charged with leading the Dornish host, and was attacked by Ser Lyn of the Vale. Selmy had most likely been charged with protecting Rhaegar, and would have considered his first duty to be to protect the Crown Prince if he hadn't, and he had not been captured by Vale men). 

He had fallen before Robert had fought with Rhaegar (because otherwise, Robert would have had to have fought Selmy to get to Rhaegar. Also, Robert speaks as if he had seen Selmy fight loyally and well at first hand.)

Selmy had been captured by Eddard's Northerners, and brought before Robert and Eddard after the battle, and Robert had spared his life.

Then or a little after, Selmy realising that Rhaegar was dead and, unable to defend King Aerys physically or pschologically, had offered his allegiance to Robert before Robert arrived in King's Landing. (Else he would have been serving on the Wall with Ser Jaramey Rykker and Ser Alliser Thorne, rather than in Robert's Kingsguard.) But maybe after news of Aerys death had reached him.

So surrendered is the wrong word,  - he was taken prisoner, shortly after or shortly before Rhaegar died (as he seems to have witnessed Rhaegar's death-blow). He was incapable of defending Aerys at the time of his death, and he swore himself to Robert before Robert arrived in King's Landing.

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45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Once Robert claimed the crown, anyone who fought him became a traitor, should he win.  Hence, the need for pardons.

You don't become a rebel after the fact.  You rebel against the crown (a crime), you win, and you become the crown, that part is fine.  But you fight lawfully defending against rebels, you lose, you don't become a traitor.  What would you have betrayed?  If you continue to fight, you could become a rebel, but what Baristan did was not a crime, hence he wouldn't need a pardon, he'd need to swear allegiance and bend the knee.

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16 minutes ago, Mad King Bolton said:

What would you have betrayed?

The new King, you fought against him.

 

My understanding of the world is that everyone fighting on the loosing side is considered a traitor in the eyes of the winner. No need to overthink this, just simple as that.

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2 hours ago, Mad King Bolton said:

You don't become a rebel after the fact.  You rebel against the crown (a crime), you win, and you become the crown, that part is fine.  But you fight lawfully defending against rebels, you lose, you don't become a traitor.  What would you have betrayed?  If you continue to fight, you could become a rebel, but what Baristan did was not a crime, hence he wouldn't need a pardon, he'd need to swear allegiance and bend the knee.

That's a more modern definition of treason.  In the case of Henry Tudor for example, he deemed himself always to have been king, and therefore anyone who fought him was technically a traitor.  They had to seek a formal pardon, in return for swearing him fealty. Likewise, servants of the Commonwealth had to seek a pardon from Charles II (withheld in the case of the regicides, but granted to the rest).

I  think that there would be an expectation that a pardon would be granted to people who had fought for a defeated king, unless they had seriously pissed off the victorious rebel, but strictly, a pardon would be required.

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5 hours ago, Walda said:

because as far as we know, the only other member of the Kingsguard on the Trident was Martell, who had been charged with leading the Dornish host, and was attacked by Ser Lyn of the Vale.

You forgot about Jonothor Darry, he also went to Trident with Rhaegar, Barristan and Lewyn Martell. "Jon was slain at the Trident,[5] cut down in the midst of the conflict.[6]"

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4 hours ago, SeanF said:

That's a more modern definition of treason.  In the case of Henry Tudor for example, he deemed himself always to have been king, and therefore anyone who fought him was technically a traitor.  They had to seek a formal pardon, in return for swearing him fealty. Likewise, servants of the Commonwealth had to seek a pardon from Charles II (withheld in the case of the regicides, but granted to the rest).

I  think that there would be an expectation that a pardon would be granted to people who had fought for a defeated king, unless they had seriously pissed off the victorious rebel, but strictly, a pardon would be required.

That's a nice historical reference.  I think it's an exception though, as Robert nor anyone else in the realm considered Robert to be king until he was king.  

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6 hours ago, TheSamsa said:

The new King, you fought against him.

 

My understanding of the world is that everyone fighting on the loosing side is considered a traitor in the eyes of the winner. No need to overthink this, just simple as that.

I get what you're saying.  I'm just saying pardon is the incorrect word as is traitor.  

definition of traitor - a person who betrays someone or something, such as a friend, cause, or principle.  Barristan fought for the recognized king at the time of battle (not to mention it was called Robert's Rebellion historically afterwards).  He at no point fought for Robert's cause and so cannot be a traitor to it.  The victor become the ruling party, I get it, not overthinking it, I'm saying it's a poor choice of words.

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For the crime of fighting the losing side. 

1 hour ago, Mad King Bolton said:

I'm just saying pardon is the incorrect word as is traitor

It does seem the correct term. Fighting against the winning side has always meant you need a pardon to return to your formal duties, that's true even for many modern matters.

Whether you were fighting for the established system or against it, it's not really relevant.

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Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I Baratheon.

(ASoS Ch67 Jaime VIII)

This was written in the White Book by Barristan himself. Reading it, the two things that interest me are:

1/ that there is no mention of the Tourney of Harrenhal. Not in his own account, in spite of him claiming to Daenerys that it was "a notable event"(ASoS Ch 42 Daenarys IV)), and in spite of his making it through to the final tilt before failing to unhorse Rhaegar (ADwD Ch 67 The Kingbreaker). Even more remarkably, there is no mention of the tourney in Jaime's entry, even though he was invested into the Kingsguard there.(ASoS Ch31 Jaime IV)

2/ "his Sworn Brothers" - @Megorova l did forget Jon Darry.  Now I think about it, the last time there is mention of Barristan before the battle on the Trident, he was ordered off to Stoney Sept with Jon Darry, to marshal the loyalist troops there after JonCon was attainted.(ASoS Ch 37 Jaime V)Presumably, they did that, then marched those troops up to the Trident to support Ser Lewyn's, with Prince Rhaegar. Jaime remembers Darry snapping "guard the king" at him before Rhaegar rode out (AFfC Ch 8 Jaime I). The Wiki claims Darry was slain on the Trident, but I can't find where his death is mentioned in the reference given (AFfC Ch 8 Jaime I).  If anyone can help me out here? .

The World of Ice and Fire claims

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Ser Jonothor Darry was cut down in the midst of the conflict, as was Prince Lewyn of Dorne

(TWoIaF p126 The Fall of the Dragons: Robert's Rebellion) but I can't find the reference in the books proper for Darry. Maybe TWoIaF claim is based on information not supplied in the books?

I am wondering if Jon Darry left the Trident during the battle at the behest of Rhaegar.

His kinsman, Ser Willem, took Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys to Dragonstone when King Aerys was told of Prince Rhaegar's death on the Trident. Someone got the message through to King's Landing, and Darry would know how to get to Darry undetected by Robert's rebels, and get the message to Willem from there (assuming it was not held by rebels already). The deeds and death of Lewyn and Rhaegar are mentioned in the story, and Barristan remains as a point of view. We know that Eddard met Dayne, Whent, and Hightower at the Tower of Joy, and that they died there. But the records are not that clear about what happened to Jon Darry, and who witnessed him.

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21 hours ago, Walda said:

The Wiki claims Darry was slain on the Trident, but I can't find where his death is mentioned in the reference given (AFfC Ch 8 Jaime I).  If anyone can help me out here? .

Jaime was sending off Rhaegar, Darry and Barristan. He asked Rhaegar to go with him, and either Darry or Barri to stay at KL to guard the King. Both Rhaegar and Jon died at the Trident, Barri was pardoned by Robert. And it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the main series how exactly did Jon died, or who killed him. This -> is all there is in the main books:

"The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. “Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.”

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.”

Jaime’s anger had risen up in his throat. “I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.”

“Then guard the king,” Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.”

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom."

21 hours ago, Walda said:

1/ that there is no mention of the Tourney of Harrenhal. Not in his own account, in spite of him claiming to Daenerys that it was "a notable event"(ASoS Ch 42 Daenarys IV)), and in spite of his making it through to the final tilt before failing to unhorse Rhaegar (ADwD Ch 67 The Kingbreaker). Even more remarkably, there is no mention of the tourney in Jaime's entry, even though he was invested into the Kingsguard there.(ASoS Ch31 Jaime IV)

There is no mentioning about Harrenhal's tournament in Jaime's entry because he didn't even participated. After the joining ceremony, when he became a Kingsguard, Aerys sent him to King's Landing.

And Barristan didn't won in that tournament. Only wins are recorded, not participations. Furthermore in the White Book in Barry's entry are recorded only those tournaments/jousts that a) were won by Barri, and b) only those that were held after he became a Kingsguard, because White Book is a record of their prowes as members of Kingsguard, not what they did/accomplished before they joined KG. That tournament at Blackhaven was recorded in Barri's entry only because it explains his nickname, how he got it.

For example, "Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen."

"Champion of the tourney at King's Landing, in his 57th year."

It isn't recorded in Barri's entry in the White Book that he participated in tournament held at Lannisport, this one:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/List_of_tourneys_in_Westeros#Tournament_in_honor_of_Viserys.27s_birth

Also it isn't mentioned in Barri's entry that he was a champion of this tournament, when he was 16, years before he became a KG:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/List_of_tourneys_in_Westeros#Winter_Tourney_at_King.27s_Landing

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