King17 Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 14 minutes ago, SeanF said: I’ll make the same point with Jon and Stannis as I do with Dany and her anti-slavery campaign. He chose half measures, when he should have gone all the way. Once he decided Stannis was the best option for the North, he should have just backed him to the hilt, rather than agonise over Night’s Watch neutrality. That ship sailed, before Jon became commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 3 hours ago, King17 said: To the realm at large stannis is a rebel and a traitor. 3 hours ago, King17 said: The north wouldn't take kindly to that. In addition jon could also politely remind stannis he doesn't need to kill all of his men just stannis himself when stannis dies his rebellion goes with him. How is that not getting involved in the war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Tumbleweed Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: How is that not getting involved in the war? I doubt it would never come to that scenario, but the war would be besides the point. More a matter of self defense the way I see it. He was involved in the war whether he liked it or not from the minute Stannis arrived. To the OP - I'd vote for Denys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 22 minutes ago, Sir Tumbleweed said: I doubt it would never come to that scenario, but the war would be besides the point. More a matter of self defense the way I see it. He was involved in the war whether he liked it or not from the minute Stannis arrived. To the OP - I'd vote for Denys Poor denys he got so few votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 41 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: How is that not getting involved in the war? At that point it's a matter of self defense and it's not like anyone with influence is going to complain if you go through with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 26 minutes ago, King17 said: At that point it's a matter of self defense and it's not like anyone with influence is going to complain if you go through with it. You said the problem was that Jon is an oathbreaker because he broke his vows by meddling with the affairs of the realm. So, how is it that killing (or threatening to kill) Stanis isn't meddling? It's also a poor idea of self deffense, as Stani's men would want to avenge him, and Stanis is the only person helping the NW right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Maester Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 4 hours ago, King17 said: Take them by force and the north joins with bolton and crushes him stannis may look like he has a lot of power at first glance but look a little deeper and he doesn't have that much. They wont because when stannis occupied the castle now one cared that he was occupying lands that belong to the nights watch. If he takes those castles they arent going to result in deaths, because no one is manning them. And if even one of those castles are manned, the brothers are just a bunch of lowly peasants and criminals that will rather yield the castle than fight the Baratheon knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Tumbleweed Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 1 hour ago, CamiloRP said: how is it that killing (or threatening to kill) Stanis isn't meddling? It's also a poor idea of self deffense, as Stani's men would want to avenge him, and Stanis is the only person helping the NW right now. Because Stannis is the one meddling by forcing his will on the watch, anything the LC does would be getting involved in the war except for allowing yourself the be replaced, then the next LC would have the same decision forced on them. Killing him is obviously not a smart choice, since Stannis men would avenge him immediately like you say. But working with Stannis is undeniably getting involved in the war, where as defying/slaying him can be seen as defending the integrity of the Nights Watch. It's definitely not an ideal circumstance, more like an animal lashing out when backed into a corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 26 minutes ago, Sir Tumbleweed said: Because Stannis is the one meddling by forcing his will on the watch, anything the LC does would be getting involved in the war except for allowing yourself the be replaced, then the next LC would have the same decision forced on them. Killing him is obviously not a smart choice, since Stannis men would avenge him immediately like you say. But working with Stannis is undeniably getting involved in the war, where as defying/slaying him can be seen as defending the integrity of the Nights Watch. It's definitely not an ideal circumstance, more like an animal lashing out when backed into a corner. But Stanis is king, and the king can force his will on the watch, Mormont sent ravens to all kings, because that's what neutrality looks like, Stanis answered his plea. Would the correct choice for the Watch be killing Joffrey if he showed up? How about Robb, Balon, Renly, Aegon or Dany? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 2 hours ago, CamiloRP said: You said the problem was that Jon is an oathbreaker because he broke his vows by meddling with the affairs of the realm. So, how is it that killing (or threatening to kill) Stanis isn't meddling? It's also a poor idea of self deffense, as Stani's men would want to avenge him, and Stanis is the only person helping the NW right now. Stannis is threatening to take your castles stopping him is the very definition of self defense as for his men they have two options join the watch or be executed by the lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 2 hours ago, The Young Maester said: They wont because when stannis occupied the castle now one cared that he was occupying lands that belong to the nights watch. If he takes those castles they arent going to result in deaths, because no one is manning them. And if even one of those castles are manned, the brothers are just a bunch of lowly peasants and criminals that will rather yield the castle than fight the Baratheon knights. There is a difference between temporarily letting a people stay in a castle and literally granting them the land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Tumbleweed Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: But Stanis is king, and the king can force his will on the watch, Mormont sent ravens to all kings, because that's what neutrality looks like, Stanis answered his plea. That's a good point, and it's an unprecedented situation. They should owe some sort of gratitude but joining the war effort is asking too much. You're right a king can force their will, but if there's more than one king a) you're not really the king, at least not yet. and b) you're asking the NW to fight against a part of the 7 Kingdoms, which is against their policy... It's a moot point if you can only ask for help by the time when you don't need it, but that's neutrality by design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, Sir Tumbleweed said: That's a good point, and it's an unprecedented situation. They should owe some sort of gratitude but joining the war effort is asking too much. You're right a king can force their will, but if there's more than one king a) you're not really the king, at least not yet. and b) you're asking the NW to fight against a part of the 7 Kingdoms, which is against their policy... It's a moot point if you can only ask for help by the time when you don't need it, but that's neutrality by design. Isn't the nights watch technically a separate entity even if he was king not sure he has the authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Tumbleweed Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 1 minute ago, King17 said: Isn't the nights watch technically a separate entity even if he was king not sure he has the authority. In times of peace, sure. There's no precident, we're seeing how it would unfold in wartime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 1 hour ago, King17 said: Stannis is threatening to take your castles stopping him is the very definition of self defense yeah, but Stannis is asking for something the Watch isn't using and he's giving stuff in return, it's kind of a dream come true to the Watch. Yeah, he says he can take very castle, but in the end he negotiates with Jon, and the Watch comes out winning. Quote as for his men they have two options join the watch or be executed by the lannisters. They still outnumber the black brothers, so they can't force them to do anything,and they would likely kill anyone involved in the murder of their king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Sir Tumbleweed said: That's a good point, and it's an unprecedented situation. They should owe some sort of gratitude but joining the war effort is asking too much. You're right a king can force their will, but if there's more than one king a) you're not really the king, at least not yet. and b) you're asking the NW to fight against a part of the 7 Kingdoms, which is against their policy... It's a moot point if you can only ask for help by the time when you don't need it, but that's neutrality by design. A point can be made for it, I get it, but the NW still answers to the king, they can't chose which one, so they answer to all, specially if they ask the kings for help and they provide it. Any of the nine kings and queen would think it treason from the black brothers if they were to disobey them. And, as far as I can recall, Stannis never asked them to fight the other kingdoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 15 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: Once they figure a way to work a dead horse, we'll be next. Likely I'll be the first too. 'Edd,' they'll say, 'dying's no excuse for laying down no more, so get on up and take this spear, you've got first watch tonight.' Well, I shouldn't be so gloomy. Might be I'll die before they work it out Love the bit about “take this spear” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said: Love the bit about “take this spear” Damn, forgot to highlight it and more. Thanks for the unintentional reminder and remarks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 51 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: yeah, but Stannis is asking for something the Watch isn't using and he's giving stuff in return, it's kind of a dream come true to the Watch. Yeah, he says he can take very castle, but in the end he negotiates with Jon, and the Watch comes out winning. They still outnumber the black brothers, so they can't force them to do anything,and they would likely kill anyone involved in the murder of their king. The lannisters would view giving stannis the castles as aiding a rebel. And while the watch is outnumbered stannis himself doesn't have a large army and can't really afford to bleed more Jon should've held his ground and said no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrresistable Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Because we've all read the books and are aware of Jon & his motivations, we'd probably all say Jon. If we can't pick Jon, i'm shit out of options because i can't remember too many living NW members very well, only the traitors who killed Jon and the best of them mostly all died at the Fist or fighting against the White Walkers / Wildlings, paving way for Jon to become Lord Commander in the first place. Since i can't remember too many worthy Night's Watch members who are still alive and serving The Watch at the time I'd go with Mallister or Ulmer of the Kingswood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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