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Canon Claude

Who would you have voted to be Lord Commander?

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2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I love the many Vale hostages the Iron Throne has.

Is the vale rebelling against the throne? Wait for it... No

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1 minute ago, King17 said:

Tywin has hostages and has an actual army and can afford to piss off the north how often do you I have to repeat that?

Until it makes sense, since his hostages didn't help him at all.

He has three hostages: Umber, Manderly and Karstsrk. 

Umber rebelled anyway, Manderly stayed out for a while, then started plotting against the Bolton's and the current ruling Karstark whish the Karstark hostage to die. There's also the other tens of northern houses that have no hostages.

 

Tywin can't afford to piss the North off, he has to play good because he intends his grandson to rule it.

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2 minutes ago, King17 said:

Is the vale rebelling against the throne? Wait for it... No

Never said they were, but you did say the IT has hostages, and it doesn't.

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18 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

No it doesn't, not aiding Stannis would mean not recognizing him as king, which would not be neutral. He's the king, he commanded soething, they must obey. I also asked if it would be okay for the Watch to ignore a command from Tywin, you ignored the question.

Stannis isn't king of anything if some random hedge knight showed up at the wall and called himself would the watch be forced to obey? 

As for the tywin question he isn't asking for anything so it's irrelevant.

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1 minute ago, CamiloRP said:

Never said they were, but you did say the IT has hostages, and it doesn't.

I was referring to the north.

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2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Until it makes sense, since his hostages didn't help him at all.

He has three hostages: Umber, Manderly and Karstsrk. 

Umber rebelled anyway, Manderly stayed out for a while, then started plotting against the Bolton's and the current ruling Karstark whish the Karstark hostage to die. There's also the other tens of northern houses that have no hostages.

 

Tywin can't afford to piss the North off, he has to play good because he intends his grandson to rule it.

I believe bolton has superior numbers so it did work. As for this grandson nonesense yes it was his original plan but  tywin doesn't have sansa now does he? 

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13 minutes ago, King17 said:

Stannis isn't king of anything if some random hedge knight showed up at the wall and called himself would the watch be forced to obey? 

As for the tywin question he isn't asking for anything so it's irrelevant.

He's a claimant, people in the Watch acknowledge him as king, no one ever makes your argument. He's a king, and the watch should (and does) treat him as an equal to Tommen.

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11 minutes ago, King17 said:

I believe bolton has superior numbers so it did work. As for this grandson nonesense yes it was his original plan but  tywin doesn't have sansa now does he? 

He also doesn't have a functioning disgestuve system, what is your point? 

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7 hours ago, King17 said:

Drone isn't declaring for stannis and is technically in the lannister fold as is the vale the riverlands have been subdued and can be controlled by hostages the stormlords have surrendered. And half of the north is under lannisters control so yes about 5 out 7 

The Vale is at peace, but they aren't 'in the fold' with the Lannisters. They have technically achieved independence from the goings on in the Realm thanks to their remoteness and unassailability.

We're talking about the faction that won the war for the Lannisters. Which would be the Reach, Westerlands / Crownlands alliance.

 

Dorne has never been on board with 'the Lannister fold', we know this with 100% certainty as book readers. They've been biding their time, waiting, this entire time, and we are explicitly told this. One of their main goals is to take down the ruling branch of House Lannister (Cersei, Tywin..Jaime too as he was meant to be guarding Elia & Rhaegar's children).

 

The North is set to break free of the yolk of the Boltons & Freys, Lannister's sponsors and henchmen. Stormlords are low on fighting men, and couldn't repel the Golden Company for the Lannister's if they tried, and it seems most of them aren't trying, or are just actively joining Aegon.

 

Sure, Jon Snow doesn't know about all of this, or about Euron bearing down on the Hightower & Reach at all. Hence why it's a legitimate argument that Lannister power is still a threat to the North / Nights Watch.  Using their influence to stunt and deprive the NW? Sure. Sending assassins on the LC? Cersei is the type. I assume Bowen is thinking ahead (as a Steward in charge of finance and food), on the assumption the Lannister's will be in power for years and decades to come, and would reduce the NW to destitution.


Yet the situation at The Wall is immediate and dire. They have no choice but to support Stannis as he's sitting squat on them with a standing army of about 4500, 1500 knights. Yet he actually plans to repel The Others if they try cross into the 7 Kingdoms. Does the NW know if they can pass, infiltrate or breach The Wall? I don't think even as readers we know for sure.  Correct me if i'm wrong.

 

edit: forgot to mention Stannis is the King that answered the call. even if not for purely selfless reasons, he was the one to come in their moment of need. Gondor calls for aid.

Edited by lrresistable
yaya

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4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Nope, but a not insignificant part of this forum seems to think the Starks are unholy abominations produced by incest that eat human flesh, mate with animals and will end up in charge of an amry of the undead.

Oh, and Jon is about to be a Wight that will cause Arya to kill everyone in King's Landing because of reasons.

Also don't forget that in individual cases:

- Jon is an oath breaker for letting the wildlings across and trying to disrupt poor peaceful Roose and Ramsay.

- Arya is "insane".

- Bran is going to become the Great Other.

- Sansa is as evil and manipulative as Littlefinger

And also don't forget the incest shipping

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2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also don't forget that in individual cases:

- Jon is an oath breaker for letting the wildlings across and trying to disrupt poor peaceful Roose and Ramsay.

- Arya is "insane".

- Bran is going to become the Great Other.

- Sansa is as evil and manipulative as Littlefinger

And also don't forget the incest shipping

I think LF will manipulate Sansa into doing increasingly dubious things which will force a breach between them, hopefully leading to his demise.

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2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also don't forget that in individual cases:

 

- Bran is going to become the Great Other.

 

there's some evidence pointing to Bran, the little wannabe Knight ending up as 'the Knight's King'. When he's a princeling at Winterfell, the 2 Karstarks who make fun of him, saying they'd rather be dead end up chopped up to pieces by our gallant knight Jaime in the Whispering Wood. He was born in the height of Summer and has a direwolf called Summer. I wonder what happens when Winter finally comes and Summer dies?

 GRRM told D&D Bran would be 'King' by the end of the books. And i'm highly sceptical he meant 'King of the 7 Kingdoms'

Mel looks into her fires for a glimpse of the Great Other and is shown Bloodraven & Bran.

Bloodraven is sketchy as hell. 13 years as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. White Walkers just happen to start becoming active and showing their heads around the time he leaves The Wall and goes deep into the North?  just a coincidence, though, i'm sure.

 

Likely warged the boar that killed Robert, absolutely devasting Westeros with wars in the aftermath. Might have groomed Crow's Eye as a potential successor. Kills off a shit ton of Blackfyre's, and likely some Targaryens too, leading to their dynasty being conveniently obliterated by the time the Other's are active in the storyline.

 

More than possible that it was Coldhands who sent the Mother Direwolf beyond The Wall for the Stark kids too. He's a powerful skinchanger in his own right, and may be 'bound' to the Children, not Bloodraven, (if he's actually bound at all)

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2 hours ago, lrresistable said:

Bloodraven is sketchy as hell. 13 years as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. White Walkers just happen to start becoming active and showing their heads around the time he leaves The Wall and goes deep into the North?

Bloodraven left long before that.

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3 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

Bloodraven left long before that.

I don't think so. Other's attacks and wildlings sacrificing to them are happening to the Free Folk years before the start of book 1. According to Mance it's only recently gotten much worse and they've ramped it up significantly.

I'm attributing the increase in operations to Bloodraven here, not that WW activity was going on before or after he went Far North. I'm saying he is a catalyst for their ramp up in power.

 

Silverwing refused to take Queen Alysanne North of The Wall, even when she pressed her dragon several times to fly her into the beyond. She noted her dragon in any other circumstance always flew her wherever she wanted with no problem

That dragon likely sensed the threat out there and knew taking her out was dangerous. So they've likely 'been around' in some fashion even at this time.

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1 hour ago, lrresistable said:

Silverwing refused to take Queen Alysanne North of The Wall, even when she pressed her dragon several times to fly her into the beyond. She noted her dragon in any other circumstance always flew her wherever she wanted with no problem

That dragon likely sensed the threat out there and knew taking her out was dangerous. So they've likely 'been around' in some fashion even at this time.

I agree with you that Bloodraven is sketchy at best, but I think the Silverwing thing was about the magical barrier in the Wall repealing him.

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12 hours ago, King17 said:

Tywin has hostages and has an actual army and can afford to piss off the north how often do you I have to repeat that?

Yes, Tywin had an army of Freys who took a few hostages at the Red Wedding, and killed a lot and are known for their lies, and don't always return their hostages alive.

Roose Bolton freed Tywin's captives at Harrenhal and most marched to slaughter at Duskendale, where details of who still survive are sketchy and not widely known, although Harrion is apparently held at Maidenpool (where Jaime sent those who had stayed through the Hoat and Clegane stewardships,when he installed Ser Bonifer and his eighty-six. Robett Glover is hiding in White Harbor and knows Stannis freed Moat Cailin and Ramsey destroyed Winterfell.

Roose effectively holds all the guests at Ramsey's wedding hostage, all except Theon and the bride - Stannis holds them.

Those guests are also his entire army? There are probably still some Bolton men holding Old Nan, Beth Cassel, Palla, Bandy, or whichever Stark-rule Winterfell inhabitants survive, if any. Of course, the Winterfell army are all a little edgy because of the Ghost of Winterfell deaths, and getting restive in close quarters with their internecine disputes. When they get out and get a bit of exercise, they'll realise they were bitching about nothing.

Or perhap, when you said Tywin's army, you meant Cersei's army? The one Jaime was demobilizing, in the Riverlands? Before he took off with Brienne, rather than respond to Cersei's orders, that is.

Or the two in King's Landing, commanded by Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly, that won't go anywhere until after Margarey's trial? But they are pre-booked to fight the Golden Company in the Stormlands. Or not. Depending on the outcome of Margaery's trial.

There's Paxter Redwyne's fleet, returning from Loras-held Dragonstone - they could turn North for White Harbor before or after they sweep Euron's Ironborn from the seas. Or even during. After they had tested Aurane's loyalty, they could take what is left of Loras's host to the White Knife, where loyal Manderly's folk can see them down the same road their Frey friends took to Ramsey's wedding.

Then of course there are the Poor Fellows and the Warriors Sons. They are probably just itching for a chance to destroy the Red Witch and all her Queen's men. But they take their orders from the High Septon, not Cersei. As the host in the Dornish Marches and the Boneway take their orders from Doran.

Still, whether or not Tywin's heirs have an army to command or can afford it, Tywin has overseen a lot of things that piss off the North. Freys piss off the North simply by existing. Giving FArya and legitimacy to a serial sex pest like Bolton's bastard pisses of the North. Gregor feeding the hostages Goat pisses off the North. The burning of Winterfell and the slaughter of the two princes pisses off the North. 

No-one can doubt the work Tywin had painstakingly put into pissing off the North, and the South (Elia, Aegon), and the East (he gave them Petyr Baelish to be Lord Protector of the Vale in exchange for Lysa accepting the King's Peace), and the West (True, there are no Casterlys or Tarbecks, but Lord Farman of Fair Isle is more likely to remember Stannis fondly than Tywin). I'd like to give an honourable mention to his plan to form an alliance with Mance Raydar here. Nice touch.

Now he is not around to brutally smash dissenters with his strategically selected and carefully collected mighty hosts and humble harpists. Littlefinger gleefully points out Cersei is burning up all the alliances he formed.

 Still, that won't stop Jaime pissing off Lady Stoneheart, nor Cersei. doing her bit to piss off the North. It was she that ordered the Onion Knight's head upon the Seal Gate in exchange for Willys and his loyalty. Cersei has prepared to send one hundred men to Eastwatch to assist Ser Osney to assasinate Lord Commander Snow. I don't think they got to Castle Black in time to join the steward's mutiny, certainly not Ser Osney. But he has confessed his schemes to the High Sparrow, and when they come out in the trial, that should piss the North off just as much as if Cersei had killed Jon Snow herself, without bothering to send a badly needed ship, or any men.

 

 

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sorry about getting at you before pissy at you before, I think i said 'Jon' like 5 times so  i assume people think i'm hardcore on the Snow takeover of The Watch

 

Yeah, the forum had a lot of debate on if the dragons could pass The Wall back at the time when this info got released. I'm not sold on a magical barrier in that way, which i assume would be to protect the Other's from dragons? Essentially I think the extreme cold in the Lands of Always Winter would be enough to stop dragons from ever rolling up on them up there.

They are magical beasts, but they seem to be  very much worldly and natural beings. So i'm not sure if repellent, or 'YOU MAY NOT PASS' magic would work on them. In contrast, the Other's seem very much unnatural and snuff out living beings wherever they go and reanimate their corpses to serve them.

Dragons do have more to them than just being intelligent and being able to breathe fire in Martin's world. I genuinely think they can instinctively sense other magical beings, know that The Wall is a hinge of the world, and that what lies beyond is not their 'territory' and they are not welcome there.

 

I can definitely see arguments saying 'we drew a line in the sand, this side is Fire, and this side is Ice' Ice can't cross Fire and vice versa, as established by a Pact. It just seems implausible to me as it requires a lot of assumptions to be made. Far from it being canon, but Dany was also able to take her dragons North of The Wall in the show as well.

Whereas we know the Other's lurk in the lands beyond The Wall and are a threat, and the dragons likely know this too.

Edited by lrresistable

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1 hour ago, lrresistable said:

sorry about getting at you before pissy at you before, I think i said 'Jon' like 5 times so  i assume people think i'm hardcore on the Snow takeover of The Watch

Yeah, no problem, I re read it and it did sound like I was mocking you, so sorry again <3

 

Quote

Yeah, the forum had a lot of debate on if the dragons could pass The Wall back at the time when this info got released. I'm not sold on a magical barrier in that way, which i assume would be to protect the Other's from dragons? Essentially I think the extreme cold in the Lands of Always Winter would be enough to stop dragons from ever rolling up on them up there.

They are magical beasts, but they seem to be  very much worldly and natural beings. So i'm not sure if repellent, or 'YOU MAY NOT PASS' magic would work on them. In contrast, the Other's seem very much unnatural and snuff out living beings wherever they go and reanimate their corpses to serve them.

Dragons do have more to them than just being intelligent and being able to breathe fire in Martin's world. I genuinely think they can instinctively sense other magical beings, know that The Wall is a hinge of the world, and that what lies beyond is not their 'territory' and they are not welcome there.

 

I can definitely see arguments saying 'we drew a line in the sand, this side is Fire, and this side is Ice' Ice can't cross Fire and vice versa, as established by a Pact. It just seems implausible to me as it requires a lot of assumptions to be made. Far from it being canon, but Dany was also able to take her dragons North of The Wall in the show as well.

Whereas we know the Other's lurk in the lands beyond The Wall and are a threat, and the dragons likely know this too.

That could be too, but we do know there's some sort of magic in the Wall that prevents watching from the other side and such.

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12 hours ago, King17 said:

if some random hedge knight showed up at the wall and called himself would the watch be forced to obey? 

If that random hedge knight claimed guest right, they would be forced to shelter and feed him and his men for as long as they stayed. As Lord Manderly demonstrated, if you are scrupulous about guest right, you accompany your guests to the border of your lands so there are witnesses to testify that you left them alive and well.

All in all, I would say Lord Snow leaned into his guestright obligations when it came to Stannis. Strictly speaking, he was not obliged to comment on Stannis's battle plans, nor tell him what he would do instead, nor provide him with introductions to the mountain clans and hints on the basic courtesies required to gain their support and act on his better plans.

But he did have to give Stannis's men warm cloaks, so they would not freeze, and food, and put Stannis up in the King's Tower. It was generous to renovate the Nightsfort for Stannis and his queen, but that too could be claimed as guest right, if they return it to the Night's Watch when they leave.

Settling kneelers on the Gift is a bit of a stretch on guest right too, but that might be regarded more as part of the 998th commander's policy towards wildlings - the Snow doctrine, where Wildlings are recruited to serve on the Wall, permitted to join the Night's Watch, held hostage by it, and permitted to hide behind it for the winter for a toll, if they keep the King's peace and serve the Watch.

Alys Karstark is another example of guestright done handsomely. She is sheltered, restored to health, given a Maid cloak and a Bride cloak, a wedding and reception by the Watch. Stannis and his Queen give her a new king and a new religion, her husband supplies her with an army.

Cregan is a good example of the very least that can be done. He is not a guest, but a prisoner. Lord Snow's men took care to apprehend him well south of Mole's Town, and before he claimed to be their guest or an envoy. 

 Still, he is given furs enough to ensure he doesn't freeze in his ice-cell, which is the most spacious of the cramped cold prisons they have. He is fed. He gets a chamberpail, and even a skin of wine.

Lord Snow won't judge his crime or kill him - that would be meddling in the affairs of the five kings and their wardens. He does invite Cregan to take the Black. Two of Cregan's three companions decided Lady Alys rules the Karhold and they therefore seve her. Their cells were more cramped (I am guessing the second biggest cell holds the two wildling corpses from the Godswood grove). But it is not worse than the brothers do to their own, when they are found drunk and attempting to force their way into Hardin's Tower to molest wildlings.

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