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So much for the North supporting the Wall...


James Steller

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I don't know why it took me so long to realise this, but isn't it strange how Stannis Baratheon is the only person to respond to the Night's Watch's plea for help in ASOS? And I'm including the fact that not a single Northern house even bothered to follow up on the threat, let alone send any help.

It does make sense with some of the houses; House Glover's castle was being occupied, while House Umber and House Karstark are almost completely depleted of manpower due to Robb's defeat. House Manderly still has most of their army, but they're playing a long game to oust the Boltons, so I can work around that. But I don't know why any of them even showed concern that a wildling army was threatening to invade the North. Then there's the people like House Dustin, House Ryswell, and House Flint who all still had sufficient forces to at least help the Night's Watch out temporarily before resuming their siege of Moat Cailin. And even after their losses with Robb, there's over 3000 mountain clansmen who apparently did nothing to aid the Night's Watch, only to join a southron king's cause the second he asked nicely.

I get that the story needed Stannis to be the only person who came to help, but that undermines a lot of what was established about the North and its close ties with the Night's Watch. 

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So many reasons. Depleted fighting force, absent leaders, need to harvest, short notice, multiple fronts (Ironborn, Boltons, wildlings), a not-our-problem syndrome as the Boltons, Karstarks and Umbers would be hit first (the mountain clans probably felt safe in their valleys)

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29 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I don't know why it took me so long to realise this, but isn't it strange how Stannis Baratheon is the only person to respond to the Night's Watch's plea for help in ASOS? And I'm including the fact that not a single Northern house even bothered to follow up on the threat, let alone send any help.

It does make sense with some of the houses; House Glover's castle was being occupied, while House Umber and House Karstark are almost completely depleted of manpower due to Robb's defeat. House Manderly still has most of their army, but they're playing a long game to oust the Boltons, so I can work around that. But I don't know why any of them even showed concern that a wildling army was threatening to invade the North. Then there's the people like House Dustin, House Ryswell, and House Flint who all still had sufficient forces to at least help the Night's Watch out temporarily before resuming their siege of Moat Cailin. And even after their losses with Robb, there's over 3000 mountain clansmen who apparently did nothing to aid the Night's Watch, only to join a southron king's cause the second he asked nicely.

I get that the story needed Stannis to be the only person who came to help, but that undermines a lot of what was established about the North and its close ties with the Night's Watch. 

 

Because it creates drama. 

George characterised the North as being very supportive of the wall and the Nights Watch. However he wanted the NW to be on their own dealing with Wildlings and Others. 

They mention about ravens being sent off and some disputes as if the North is falling into civil war at the time. But then we get to ADWD and there’s no actual fighting going on aside from a few Ironborn garrisons clinging to the coast. There was no reason they couldn’t have sent a few thousand men to the Wall and they had a direct stake in defending it. 

Its noticeable that there isn’t any beef or conflict between the NW and the Northern Houses over them not having their back. They still elect Jon Snow because of his Stark Blood and it’s just business as usual. 

But yeah I think George wanted that situation but he resolved it in a way that was intended to not make the North look bad. Thus, Stannis is made to look unreasonable when he holds it against the North that he just saved those ungrateful wretch’s from the Wildlings and probably the Others.

Its incredibly bizarre given how much George criticises the Small Council for ignoring the threat posed by the Wildlings and the Others. But the Northern Houses get a pass because we’re meant to like them so they can’t do anything too nasty.

 

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

I don't know why it took me so long to realise this, but isn't it strange how Stannis Baratheon is the only person to respond to the Night's Watch's plea for help in ASOS?

No. If he never saw the Fists he wouldn't have come.

Its not that strange. Heres what the two reasons we see are, 

Quote

The Watch is grievously under strength. If the Wall should fail . . ."

". . . the wildlings will flood the north," his father finished, "and the Starks and Greyjoys will have another enemy to contend with. They no longer wish to be subject to the Iron Throne, it would seem, so by what right do they look to the Iron Throne for aid? King Robb and King Balon both claim the north. Let them defend it, if they can. And if not, this Mance Rayder might even prove a useful ally."

 

Quote

I believed he discussed it with the queen. When I asked him if he wished to send a reply, he told me not to be a fool. 'His Grace lacks the men to fight his own battles, he has none to waste on wildlings,' he said to me."

Which are pretty good reasons. The entirety of the seven kingdoms are at a disarray, mainly the north. Now is not the time to leave your castle, shits real out there. Instead go classic game o thrones like Tywin and keep adding new players, they named Frey? Maybe they can fight Frey?

Plus, the walls been standing for like a millennia so it doesnt seem likely to fall soon, plus what are the chances of no one else showing up? Like theyre sending a letter to the 5 kings, not Big Buckets

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

I get that the story needed Stannis to be the only person who came to help,

Why?

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

that undermines a lot of what was established about the North and its close ties with the Night's Watch. 

Whats established? That Bran loves his uncle? Well Jon and Arya do too. (I mean they all do)

This fascination of the nights watch is strictly a Stark thing, and probably just this generation. 

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whats established? That Bran loves his uncle? Well Jon and Arya do too. (I mean they all do)

This fascination of the nights watch is strictly a Stark thing, and probably just this generation. 

The North has been set up to value and honour the Nights Watch, even in its nadir. They still send men to the Wall, they still send food. It's not just about one generation of Starks being super involved.

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3 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

Stannis only showed up because he got yeeted at the Blackwater.

 

 

Stannis pulled an Italy. Always getting trashed in every single war war they’ve fought. Solution, find some lowly undeveloped people to smack around and conquer.

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7 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The North has been set up to value and honour the Nights Watch, even in its nadir

You must be thinking of Arya. There is zero indication that the North collectively values and honors the Watch more then its southron peers, or as much as it should

7 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

They still send men to the Wall, they still send food

They all do

7 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

It's not just about one generation of Starks being super involved.

You really think Ned would have cared about settling the Gift if his conspirator was anyone but his brother?

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Indeed, that doesn't make much sense. Especially in light of the fact that even the Umbers and Karstarks - and especially the clansmen - can later field a considerable number of men.

Nobody imagines any of them sending a thousand men each to the Wall to defend it. But what about a hundred, each? In light of the natural defenses of the Wall that could have made a gigantic difference.

Those lords all were sent letters repeatedly, and no help came.

The NW do the Northmen's work for them. They protect their northern flank. If the Wall had fallen to Mance, then the wildlings would have invaded the North, killing and raiding and raping in the lands of the Northmen. It just makes no sense that they would not heed the Watch's plea for help. It is completely against their collective interests.

And, in fact, that continues to spill into the ADwD plot. Stannis and his allies do not only know about the Others - and should inform the Northmen about the danger they pose - but they also know that Mance Rayder's defeat doesn't mean the surviving wildlings won't make a second or third attempt to cross the Wall.

Northmen killing each other at Winterfell really doesn't make much sense in light of all that.

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3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

You must be thinking of Arya. There is zero indication that the North collectively values and honors the Watch more then its southron peers, or as much as it should

It’s only natural for the north to value the wall more than their southern neighbours. Its a barrier that protects their border with the wildlings. Normally northmen will be more amiable towards the black brothers and their order.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Indeed, that doesn't make much sense. Especially in light of the fact that even the Umbers and Karstarks - and especially the clansmen - can later field a considerable number of men.

Nobody imagines any of them sending a thousand men each to the Wall to defend it. But what about a hundred, each? In light of the natural defenses of the Wall that could have made a gigantic difference.

Those lords all were sent letters repeatedly, and no help came.

The NW do the Northmen's work for them. They protect their northern flank. If the Wall had fallen to Mance, then the wildlings would have invaded the North, killing and raiding and raping in the lands of the Northmen. It just makes no sense that they would not heed the Watch's plea for help. It is completely against their collective interests.

And, in fact, that continues to spill into the ADwD plot. Stannis and his allies do not only know about the Others - and should inform the Northmen about the danger they pose - but they also know that Mance Rayder's defeat doesn't mean the surviving wildlings won't make a second or third attempt to cross the Wall.

Northmen killing each other at Winterfell really doesn't make much sense in light of all that.

It’s all plot convenience for stannis to come in and save the day.

However it would make more sense for the umbers and karstarks to come to the watchs aid. Their force mightve made a big difference however for the sake of the plot, the battle at the wall would end in a similar manner as it did in canon, with stannis arriving and saving the day.

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29 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

It’s all plot convenience for stannis to come in and save the day.

However it would make more sense for the umbers and karstarks to come to the watchs aid. Their force mightve made a big difference however for the sake of the plot, the battle at the wall would end in a similar manner as it did in canon, with stannis arriving and saving the day.

You make a good point. Even if the Umbers and Karstarks had sent all the men they had left by that point, it still wouldn’t have been enough to turn back the wildlings. Stannis was essential either way. So really, there’s no excuse for this plot hole. The same thing would have been achieved either way.

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I've seem some speculation that this is what Mance was counting on all along. He saw the north get drawn into southron intrigue during Robert's Rebellion, and now Lord Stark is wed to a Tully. Then Mance shows up at Winterfell to get a look at Robert and make sure that Ned leaves the north to become his Hand. When that goes to shit and Robb marches south, the opportunity to strike presents itself. Even if some of the northern houses respond to a call for help, it will be too little to make a difference, and then a largely undefended north is ripe for the taking.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

When that goes to shit and Robb marches south, the opportunity to strike presents itself.

The "opportunity" exists because of the Others.

Mance himself admitted that he was no conqueror. He was leading wildlings to safety south of the Wall.

Despite the war the North would have enough men to defeat any wannabe King-Beyond-the-Wall.

 

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2 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

The "opportunity" exists because of the Others.

Mance himself admitted that he was no conqueror. He was leading wildlings to safety south of the Wall.

Despite the war the North would have enough men to defeat any wannabe King-Beyond-the-Wall.

 

To be fair, not without the Wall. Given the state of the North by the end of ASOS, they're too scattered, depleted, and divided to hold back an army of 40-100,000 complete with its mammoth-riding giant corps. So if the wildlings had taken the Wall, the North would have been screwed.

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1 minute ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

they're too scattered, depleted, and divided to hold back an army of 40-100,000 complete with its mammoth-riding giant corps.

The wildlings' "army" is nowhere close to being that big. You might get that number if you counted every person regardless of age, gender and fighting capability.

Ignoring the Wall makes no sense when it has been there for thousands of years.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Indeed, that doesn't make much sense. Especially in light of the fact that even the Umbers and Karstarks - and especially the clansmen - can later field a considerable number of men.

Nobody imagines any of them sending a thousand men each to the Wall to defend it. But what about a hundred, each? In light of the natural defenses of the Wall that could have made a gigantic difference.

Those lords all were sent letters repeatedly, and no help came.

The NW do the Northmen's work for them. They protect their northern flank. If the Wall had fallen to Mance, then the wildlings would have invaded the North, killing and raiding and raping in the lands of the Northmen. It just makes no sense that they would not heed the Watch's plea for help. It is completely against their collective interests.

And, in fact, that continues to spill into the ADwD plot. Stannis and his allies do not only know about the Others - and should inform the Northmen about the danger they pose - but they also know that Mance Rayder's defeat doesn't mean the surviving wildlings won't make a second or third attempt to cross the Wall.

Northmen killing each other at Winterfell really doesn't make much sense in light of all that.

Lord Umber is in chains, Lord Karstarks dead. Alys is being hounded for rape and kidnapping, theres more at play then Mances war. 

Yes the collective interest of Westeros should be past the wall, but Blackwood and Bracken dont vibe, this is like cornerstone of asoiaf. Westeros lords are greedy, craven and stupid, and you expect them to march on the fearsome lands of Grumkin and Snark?

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And, in fact, that continues to spill into the ADwD plot. Stannis and his allies do not only know about the Others - and should inform the Northmen about the danger they pose - but they also know that Mance Rayder's defeat doesn't mean the surviving wildlings won't make a second or third attempt to cross the Wall.

Stannis doesnt beg, king is bugged like that. Plus whod believe him? The job is convince people hes not a religious fanatic.

And Mances army is donezo. Warriors like The Weeper are fighting a war already decided which is why Tormund is a kneeler and his son a hostage.

5 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

It’s only natural for the north to value the wall more than their southern neighbours. Its a barrier that protects their border with the wildlings. Normally northmen will be more amiable towards the black brothers and their order.

Sure, but apparently not much more .

2 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

The "opportunity" exists because of the Others.

The opportunity to unite the lands beyond and convince them to follow him exists because of thr others, but the possibility of breaking through the wall is because of the weak governments of Robert and after Robert

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14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Indeed, that doesn't make much sense. Especially in light of the fact that even the Umbers and Karstarks - and especially the clansmen - can later field a considerable number of men.

Nobody imagines any of them sending a thousand men each to the Wall to defend it. But what about a hundred, each? In light of the natural defenses of the Wall that could have made a gigantic difference.

Those lords all were sent letters repeatedly, and no help came.

The NW do the Northmen's work for them. They protect their northern flank. If the Wall had fallen to Mance, then the wildlings would have invaded the North, killing and raiding and raping in the lands of the Northmen. It just makes no sense that they would not heed the Watch's plea for help. It is completely against their collective interests.

And, in fact, that continues to spill into the ADwD plot. Stannis and his allies do not only know about the Others - and should inform the Northmen about the danger they pose - but they also know that Mance Rayder's defeat doesn't mean the surviving wildlings won't make a second or third attempt to cross the Wall.

Northmen killing each other at Winterfell really doesn't make much sense in light of all that.

It also assumes that anyone believes that Wildlings are marching in force on the wall, which they do not in any place we see, even second or third hand.

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On 2/17/2021 at 7:22 PM, Tucu said:

(the mountain clans probably felt safe in their valleys)

Weird that I missed this, but that's a strange assumption to make when canon clearly states that the wildlings are known to raid the mountain clans regularly enough that two of their leaders visit Jon Snow to inquire about why he's allowing thousands of them south of the Wall. 

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