So much for the North supporting the Wall...

[saltedmalted]

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

but the possibility of breaking through the wall is because of the weak governments of Robert and after Robert

Even if most of the Northern troops were sent South enough men would exist to destroy any wildling host.

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

It’s all plot convenience for stannis to come in and save the day.

However it would make more sense for the umbers and karstarks to come to the watchs aid. Their force mightve made a big difference however for the sake of the plot, the battle at the wall would end in a similar manner as it did in canon, with stannis arriving and saving the day.

Stannis could still come in to save the day after some Northern lords sent some meager troops to support the Watch. Once Mance arrived at the Wall there was no way they could defeat them since Mance was prepared for a counterattack from south of the Wall. What he wasn't prepared for was a coordinated attack north of the Wall from the rear.

12 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

To be fair, not without the Wall. Given the state of the North by the end of ASOS, they're too scattered, depleted, and divided to hold back an army of 40-100,000 complete with its mammoth-riding giant corps. So if the wildlings had taken the Wall, the North would have been screwed.

Yes, and it makes no sense that they wouldn't realize this. They get letters from CB, after all. And even if the lords in their castles would be somewhat safe from the wildlings ... their people would not. In light of that danger many Northmen should have volunteered to go to the Wall simply to ensure that their families are kept safe. But the only folk who support the Watch in this our of need are the folk at Mole's Town. That is just ridiculous if you think about it.

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It also assumes that anyone believes that Wildlings are marching in force on the wall, which they do not in any place we see, even second or third hand.

Aemon has been sending letters since the first news about the Fist returned.

[Tucu]

9 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Weird that I missed this, but that's a strange assumption to make when canon clearly states that the wildlings are known to raid the mountain clans regularly enough that two of their leaders visit Jon Snow to inquire about why he's allowing thousands of them south of the Wall. 

It was Autumn and the roads to their lands are described as "little more than goat tracks". In Spring and Summer they might be surprised by raiders, but Mance host would not be moving through the clans lands and given the warning they had already received the clans could defend them from any raiding parties.

We also get this bit from the Liddle that Bran encountered:

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“As to that Wall,” the man went on, “it’s not a place that I’d be going. The Old Bear took the Watch into the haunted woods, and all that come back was his ravens, with hardly a message between them. Dark wings, dark words, me mother used to say, but when the birds fly silent, seems to me that’s even darker.”

“It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf’s dead and young one’s gone south to play the game of thrones,

Without a Stark he is not thinking of going anywhere near the Wall.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

The "opportunity" exists because of the Others.

Mance himself admitted that he was no conqueror. He was leading wildlings to safety south of the Wall.

Despite the war the North would have enough men to defeat any wannabe King-Beyond-the-Wall.

 

I wouldn't phrase it quite like that. The Others are the impetus to unite and strike south, but the opportunity would not have existed if there was no turmoil in the 7K, nor would there have been any safety the the northern houses were at full strength.

And no, the north did not even have enough men to ward off the ironmen. They would have been equally powerless to stop the wildlings if they had breached the Wall, which was only prevented by Stannis' surprise attack.

[CamiloRP]

The more I think about this the more I'm convinced Mance sent the catspaw. He NEEDED the war.

[saltedmalted]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And no, the north did not even have enough men to ward off the ironmen.

The North doesn't have enough men to destroy the Ironborn because of plot contrivance (and George ignoring distances).

The Wildlings got wrecked by a small force under Stannis. The North could have done the same but it didn't for reasons related to plot.

[Universal Sword Donor]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aemon has been sending letters since the first news about the Fist returned.

Fair. Anywhere south of the wall has not believed it to be true insofar as we've seen or heard.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

The North doesn't have enough men to destroy the Ironborn because of plot contrivance (and George ignoring distances).

The Wildlings got wrecked by a small force under Stannis. The North could have done the same but it didn't for reasons related to plot.

The north had plenty of men to rid themselves of the IB. They were just insanely poorly led. To be sure MC might have been held for a while but literally nothing was stopping from Rodrik wiping the IB from north except his own incompetence and Ramsay

[Alyn Oakenfist]

13 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The more I think about this the more I'm convinced Lance sent the catspaw. He NEEDED the war.

Maybe he thought it'd help him find the breastplate stretcher.

[CamiloRP]

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Maybe he thought it'd help him find the breastplate stretcher.

Dang it! Tho, good one.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 2/17/2021 at 3:54 PM, James Steller said:

I get that the story needed Stannis to be the only person who came to help, but that undermines a lot of what was established about the North and its close ties with the Night's Watch. 

I think they might not know what to do without a Stark to rally them. At the moment they dont have a central leader who can do that.

The North is a political football right now. I'm sick of the "I helped you, so you have to kneel to me" mentality. I can't wait until the concept of alliances between independent nations is invented.

 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

On 2/19/2021 at 11:33 AM, CamiloRP said:

The more I think about this the more I'm convinced Mance sent the catspaw. He NEEDED the war.

You cannot be serious. You have any idea how much information Mance would need to have before he even suspected that sending a catspaw to murder the second son of Lord Eddard Stark would get him the civil war he wanted? You have any idea how many different ways that plan could have gone south? And how would he get his hands on that dagger? It ONLY makes sense that the plan was arranged by a petulant little boy who didn't think beyond himself, who did something stupid because he overheard his dad say something equally stupid.

[CamiloRP]

3 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

You cannot be serious. You have any idea how much information Mance would need to have before he even suspected that sending a catspaw to murder the second son of Lord Eddard Stark would get him the civil war he wanted? You have any idea how many different ways that plan could have gone south? And how would he get his hands on that dagger? It ONLY makes sense that the plan was arranged by a petulant little boy who didn't think beyond himself, who did something stupid because he overheard his dad say something equally stupid.

Nah, tyrion's 'detective' work's got too many holes.

 

Quote

You have any idea how much information Mance would need to have before he even suspected that sending a catspaw to murder the second son of Lord Eddard Stark would get him the civil war he wanted?

I mean, framing the king's party for poisoning the GOTN's son would be enough, I think, regardless of circumpstance.

 

Quote

You have any idea how many different ways that plan could have gone south?

Unlike the plan in which he risked capture or death many times over, as well as wasting months he could use to plan his attack on the Wall just to see how the king looked like?

 

Quote

And how would he get his hands on that dagger?

I would not be surprised is he was a great thief. I would be surprised tho, if anyone (including Joffrey, hell, including Jinglebell and even Dan and Dave) would be dumb enough to think they would need to provide an easily identifiable dagger to a catspaw in order to kill an eight year old in a coma.

[John Suburbs]

On 2/19/2021 at 3:37 PM, saltedmalted said:

The North doesn't have enough men to destroy the Ironborn because of plot contrivance (and George ignoring distances).

The Wildlings got wrecked by a small force under Stannis. The North could have done the same but it didn't for reasons related to plot.

I guess I'll rephrase. It's not a question of having enough men, it's about having the right leadership to marshal forces and focus them on an objective. So Mance counting on civil war in the south isn't about draining the north of fighters (although that's part of it) but of draining the north of experienced leaders who know how to wage war.

[saltedmalted]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

but of draining the north of experienced leaders who know how to wage war.

The wildlings are extremely primitive. You don't need old, experienced men to lead, any halfway competent person would do.