Which of the kings do/did you support in WOT5K?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

15 minutes ago, frenin said:

Well, Ned clearly was the better choice so...

How?

Did he have more experience than Stannis?

Did he show more loyalty?

Did he ever prove better than Stannis at military or administrative matters?

[Nathan Stark]

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

So,  no right then... Delusions are no law.

 

Well, Ned clearly was the better choice so... I'll go with Robert this time and let's not talk about the other's loyalty shall we??

 

 

Why was Ned clearly the better choice? He hadn't been south since Robert's Rebellion, and was clearly unused to Southron politics when he got there, as opposed to Stannis, who was literally on Robert's small council the whole time. 

Why shouldn't we talk about Stannis's loyalty? He starved for Robert, won Dragonstone for Robert, helped crush the Ironborn fleet for Robert, served on Robert's small council for 17 years. Maybe we shouldn't talk about Stannis's loyalty because Renly comes up short on that count?

Don't get me wrong. I love Ned, and believe he wrongfully gets a bad rap that he doesn't completely deserve. And being Hand isn't an inherited position, so Stannis wasn't owed it. But he is a better choice for Hand than Ned is from a political standpoint.

[Arthur Peres]

16 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Why shouldn't we talk about Stannis's loyalty? He starved for Robert, won Dragonstone for Robert, helped crush the Ironborn fleet for Robert, served on Robert's small council for 17 years. Maybe we shouldn't talk about Stannis's loyalty because Renly comes up short on that count?

 

He also knew/suspected the incest, suspected the plot that killed Jon Arryn, and still left the capital without warning Robert, started to arm himself for war and waited until his brother was killed to claim the throne with no more proof than he had at the start of his investigation.

 

[Nathan Stark]

20 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He also knew/suspected the incest, suspected the plot that killed Jon Arryn, and still left the capital without warning Robert, started to arm himself for war and waited until his brother was killed to claim the throne with no more proof than he had at the start of his investigation.

 

He was supposed to do what, exactly? He told Jon Arryn about the incest because he knew Robert wouldn't listen to him. And then Robert left KL to make Ned hand. What changed that would make Robert more likely to listen to Stannis about the incest? Also, with Arryn dead and Stannis suspecting the Lannisters for his death, why would he stay if he thought his life was at risk?

[Mystical]

None of them. They all were in it for their own selfish, narrow minded reasons so I say eff 'em all. I'm on the side of the innocent victims of war only, whether that's the poor conscripted small folk or the small folk that was raided, killed, raped and pillaged. Screw Robb, Stannis, Renly, Joffrey and Balon.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

How?

Did he have more experience than Stannis?

Did he show more loyalty?

Did he ever prove better than Stannis at military or administrative matters?

1. In ruling?? Yes, he had been ruling the North for 15 years and not once he came with an idea as absurd as outlawing prostitution.
2. Far more loyalty I'd say. He was with Robert when he died, while Stannis knew that the Lannisters were out for Baratheon blood, he sat atop that info, blocked his island, stole the royal fleet, ignore every summon to the city and started hiring mercs while counting the days for the Lannisters to finish off his brother. Martin says that Robert came to distrust Stannis, no wonder, his actions are outright disloyal and bordeline treasonous.
3. Eddard won the rebellion, Stannis won the battle of Fair Isle and the assault of Old Wyk. So, yes.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

Why was Ned clearly the better choice? He hadn't been south since Robert's Rebellion, and was clearly unused to Southron politics when he got there, as opposed to Stannis, who was literally on Robert's small council the whole time. 

Trust of the king, far less rigid, just and merciful when it needed and a good hand for govern.  Stannis is at odds with the council, whereas Ned is a newcomer that counts with the trust of the king and thus he can make new allies (Renly for example).

I don't think there is anything about Stannis during any of the books that proves him a  good politician anyway. There is no sound decision that he comes up by himself. He is always advised to do it, either by Davos by  Jon and sometimes even, by Melisandre.

Perhaps you should hire his advisors.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

Why shouldn't we talk about Stannis's loyalty? He starved for Robert, won Dragonstone for Robert, helped crush the Ironborn fleet for Robert, served on Robert's small council for 17 years. Maybe we shouldn't talk about Stannis's loyalty because Renly comes up short on that count?

The past is the past and we are not talking about 18 yo Stannis or 8 yo Renly, Tywin also was once fiercely loyal to Aerys,  Renly was with Robert when he died. Stannis was in Dragonstone, with a fleet that wasn't his and started hiring mercs months ago there was sign of trouble.

Stannis is openly disloyal in AGOT.

 

23 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

hy would he stay if he thought his life was at risk?

He never thought that, in fact  he would have gladly stayed had he been named Hand and his life wouldn't have been less at risk.

He left because he wasn't named Hand and from that moment there on, he is nothing but disloyal. 

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

He was supposed to do what, exactly? He told Jon Arryn about the incest because he knew Robert wouldn't listen to him. And then Robert left KL to make Ned hand. What changed that would make Robert more likely to listen to Stannis about the incest? Also, with Arryn dead and Stannis suspecting the Lannisters for his death, why would he stay if he thought his life was at risk?

He could do a lot...

He could travel from Dragon Stone to the North and tell Ned what he knew, and deal with the Lannisters at Winterfell (away from their zone of Power).

He could told Robert and give him a chance.

He could and should stay at Robert's side and helped Ned instead of running away from the city, not responding to the summoning and waiting for his king to die.

All this talk of duty and rights is just a mask to hide his personal ambition, he wanted to be king, and for that he let his older brother to die and killed the younger.

[CamiloRP]

Anyone else wants a sitcom about the small council before Jon Arryn died?

Renly and Stannis trying to work together would be worth it on it's own, then you have:

Stannis and LF.

Stannis and Varys.

Jon Aryn and LF.

JA and Robert.

Renly and JA.

Warrior Robert slowly transitioning to good ol' Bobby B.

 

Come on @hbo you are greenlighting anything right now, this would be really cheap, you can make it all in one room, with a six person cast and 20 minute episodes. It can last up to 17 seasons. Make it happen.

[Walda]

To be fair, I think Robert was intending to wed Eddard (well, Sansa) to the Lannister cause, to attempt to mend the Stark enmity for the Lannisters (which, apart from Eddard's hatred of Lord Tywin, seems based entirely on mere prejudice.). I wish I knew if it was his own idea or Cersei's, and if Jon Arryn had told him that Cersei's children were not his.

I am not sure why Robert was so keen to have Jaime Lannister as Warden of the East - with what we know of the Lords of the Vale, it seems a bit of a punishment position for Jaime when he had a fast sword hand and didn't think too hard about things. Eddard saw immediately that Stannis would be better able to defend the Vale from Dragonstone. But Robert wouldn't have it.

I can see why Robert wouldn't be thrilled to let the warden be whomever Lysa chose, or nominally SweetRobin. But not why he couldn't chose a Lord of the Vale,  or Ser Brynden Tully, if he was intent on slighting Stannis?

He really didn't want to give Stannis a damn thing. When he learns SweetRobin is going to Dragonstone, Lord Tywin steps up, and King Robert insists. 

Nowadays I wonder, did Lord Walder see Jon Arryn's death coming? He tried to get SweetRobin as his ward (and press the Walders on the Arryns) at Joffrey's tourney, a fortnight before Jon died. How would he know?

Robert and Tywin made their grab for SweetRobin after Jon Arryn died, when there was clearly something to be gained by holding the heir to the Eyrie. Lysa would be much more inclined to chose a husband the King approved, for example.

Jon Arryn allowing Stannis to taking her son to ward at Dragonstone seems to have precipitated Lysa's poisoning her husband. Except the poisoning happened a fortnight after Jon had made that clear to his wife (and Lord Walder) that SweetRobin was going to Dragonstone.

Now, it seems like Stannis was already planning to leave the King's council and court, and superintend the building of the Royal Navy at Dragonstone. Even Lysa would be able to see she was over-reacting if being warded to Stannis had only meant SweetRobin moving from the Tower of the Hand to Stannis's rooms in the Red Keep, wouldn't she?

But SweetRobin is only five. Quentyn Martell was at least six when he was fostered to Yronwood, and that was done to demonstrate the Martells goodwill after Lord Edgar dying after his duel with Oberyn. (Presumably because Quentyn was born in the year Lord Edgar died?) Mellario thought that was too young, and it seems most pages have double digit ages, so what's the sudden interest in getting as many leagues between SweetRobin and his mother as possible? Especially when Stannis has been serving at court those past five years. But maybe he intended to stay, and just pack the boy off with Selyse and Shireen. But why?

Both Dragonstone and the Twins seem like cold, damp places for a delicate child. Lots of steps for Robin to fall down in a shaking fit at Dragonstone. Lots of bigger boys to bully him when he wets himself at the Twins.

Then, through the entire first book, Stannis does nothing. It is a genius move on GRRM's part, giving us absolutely no character development on him for the entire first book, to just not reveal anything, until even the least curious readers start asking "yeah, what is he doing on Dragonstone? And what's Theon Greyjoy's deal? And will we ever see Dorne?". But from the character's point of view - why does Stannis head to Dragonstone as soon as Robert leaves King's Landing? Here is his opportunity to be acting Hand. How does his duty demand that he leave the government of the realm to Littlefinger, Renly, Barry, and Varys?

When Balon dies, the Ironborn know it is time to race home to Wyk and stake your claim, not secure Seadragon Point with the Iron Fleet.

Tell them to organise a tourney and Barry and Renly go out of their tiny minds, and Littlefinger starts shaking his moneymakers. Varys seems to have noticed that Stannis has gathered a huge Navy around him and was only trying to make it larger. Robert responding by inviting all the fighting men of Westeros to gather at King's Landing, was a nice touch, diplomatic. He could see from the Lords that showed up - no Bar Emmons, Velaryons, Celtigars, Seaworths, or Florents. Apart from Anguy, precious little representation from Dorne. The North is represented mostly by people who came south with Ned. At least the Royces and Ser Hugh for the Vale, in spite of Lysa's ban. Not a huge showing from the Westerlands - perhaps because Tywin was secretly massing his banners at the border. The Riverlands, Stormlands, and Crownlands are well represented.

It seems Stannis lacks common decency when he doesnt attend Robert's funeral. He claims he knew Cersei's children were illegitimate, and he had Robert's acknowledged bastard as his ward. But he gave Jon Arryn the task of telling Robert and gathering proofs (apparently studying Malleon and greyhounds is 'proofs'). He waits in King's Landing while Jon dies (Jon didn't seem to find the matter important enough to mention to Robert when he was on his deathbed). He attends the funeral, he stays until Robert leaves for Winterfell.

He didn't bother inviting Edric Storm to Dragonstone which would delight Shireen, at a time when the boy's existence is a matter of no moment to anyone but himself. But he has to get SweetRobin there asap? And find himself a shadowbinder from Asshai. And sellswords from Myr and Lys. 

A full year later he starts with a propaganda leaflet drop. Apparently, when Renly and Robb are wearing crowns and marching armies down, he is no longer bothered about sounding incredibly self-serving when he calls Joffrey bastard. Never considered stirring when Eddard Stark told Joffrey to his face that Stannis was the rightful heir.

Honestly, his own worst enemy. 

 

 

[Nathan Stark]

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

He could do a lot...

He could travel from Dragon Stone to the North and tell Ned what he knew, and deal with the Lannisters at Winterfell (away from their zone of Power).

Right. That would go totally unnoticed and would not in any way alert Cersei to the fact that Stannis was mobilizing against her. All to tell Ned, who hadn't left Winterfell in 9 years, and was reluctant to serve as Hand even after he learned of the accusation that Cersei killed Jon.

5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

He could told Robert and give him a chance.

He knows, you know, I know, everybody knows that Robert would not listen to such an accusation if it came from Stannis alone. That's why Stannis went to Jon Arryn, so that they could gather evidence and so Robert would listen.

5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

He could and should stay at Robert's side and helped Ned instead of running away from the city, not responding to the summoning and waiting for his king to die.

Stannis thought his life was in danger after Jon died. That's why he fled to Dragonstone. I'll grant you Stannis allowed his petty resentment towards Ned and Robert's closeness affect his actions. I never claimed he was perfect. But he didn't know and couldn't know Robert's death was immenent.

5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

All this talk of duty and rights is just a mask to hide his personal ambition, he wanted to be king, and for that he let his older brother to die and killed the younger.

Stannis doesn't particularly want to be King. He says so on multiple occasions and never pressed a claim until he learned of Cersei and Jaime's incest. And when he did learn of it, he told a key Robert ally, Jon, and planned to act with Jon. You can accuse Stannis of letting his personal bitterness affect his lack of dealing with Ned. But his actions are not caused by personal ambition. 

[frenin]

4 hours ago, Walda said:

To be fair, I think Robert was intending to wed Eddard (well, Sansa) to the Lannister cause, to attempt to mend the Stark enmity for the Lannisters (which, apart from Eddard's hatred of Lord Tywin, seems based entirely on mere prejudice.). I wish I knew if it was his own idea or Cersei's, and if Jon Arryn had told him that Cersei's children were not his.

I don't think there's any hint regarding Robert knowing it and Cersei is not particularly thrilled with the match.

 

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Right. That would go totally unnoticed and would not in any way alert Cersei to the fact that Stannis was mobilizing against her. All to tell Ned, who hadn't left Winterfell in 9 years, and was reluctant to serve as Hand even after he learned of the accusation that Cersei killed Jon.

- And what can Cersei do anyway?? He's out of his reach and given that Stannis qould travel mostly by ship he'd be way faster than Robert's entourage that was heading North.

- Ned was going to be the future Hand of the King, if anyone should know asap it was him. And it's better than Ned can act in Winterfell, his own turf, than in say King's Landing.

- The idea that Stannis feared Cersei is simply made up. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

He knows, you know, I know, everybody knows that Robert would not listen to such an accusation if it came from Stannis alone. That's why Stannis went to Jon Arryn, so that they could gather evidence and so Robert would listen.

No one knows that but Stannis and those who chose to take his word at face value. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Stannis thought his life was in danger after Jon died.

That's straight up false. You will not find a single quote made by him or anyone near him that says that. You will him however. hs comments about who should have been the Hand.

 

 

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

That's why he fled to Dragonstone.

He only flees to Dragonstone once he sees he was not going to be Hand of the King, mind you he knew the former Hand was assasinated yet he stayed right until Robert left to Winterfell.

Did Stannis pretend to be Hand by distance?? He needed to be near the King (and his wife) to effectively rule the country, preferably from the capital. Or are you arguing that he found fear once he discovers he is not going to get what he believes he is owed.

 

 

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

But he didn't know and couldn't know Robert's death was immenent.

His actions tell other tale.

 

 

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Stannis doesn't particularly want to be King. He says so on multiple occasions

Again, words and actions differ. There is no one in the books who particularly wants to be King that much and who is willilng to do quite literally  whatever it takes to get the Throne.

Well, there is Cersei and Varys, so i'm being certainly unfair.

 

 

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

And when he did learn of it, he told a key Robert ally, Jon, and planned to act with Jon. You can accuse Stannis of letting his personal bitterness affect his lack of dealing with Ned. But his actions are not caused by personal ambition. 

Stannis was loyal until he was denied the office of Hand, that was the straw that broke the camel's back.  He  decided there and then that he would no longer be a sucker.

From that point on Stannis effectively abandons Robert (and Renly and Ned) to their fate, they may make it out alive but they are completely unaware of the danger and the danger is becoming more and more impatient and nervous, their hand was not very good.

He closes his lips and refuses to share vital information that would've otherwise saved them, he steals the Royal Fleet. he closes his borders, he ignores every summon from the Hand and he starts hiring sellswords at a time in which Westeros was (still) completely at peace. He was waiting for the King to die and he was getting ready for the ensuing conflict when that happened.

He was betting on Robert's death without realizing the twincest, that he died without real heirs so he'd be the default succesor and he was preparing himself for the moment it happened.

The fact that he made no attempt to warn Renly either also speaks volumes, especially when considering that Renly was too in the Lannisters's shitlist and that Stannis was set to inherit Storm's End had anything happened to him. And it'd later take what... 5 minutes to convince him to murder his own brother?? That he had already tried to get rid of him by proxy explains why he took so much time to be convinced and he would rather killing his own brother rather than negotiating with Robb or Lysa.

[Walda]

18 minutes ago, frenin said:

And it'd later take what... 5 minutes to convince him to murder his own brother??

Quote

"Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.”

(ACoK Ch 42 Davos II)

One could as easily accuse Renly of killing Robert by letting the boar gore him.

[BlackLightning]

Stannis' actions (or lack of action) in A Game of Thrones is inexcusable.

He could've taken the throne if he had just stayed in King's Landing (or had just gone back) and worked with Ned. Granted, he probably would have still had to deal with Balon, Renly, Mance and, possibly, Tywin and Ramsay among things such as religious tensions and inheritance.

But Stannis is his own worst enemy.

[frenin]

10 hours ago, Walda said:

(ACoK Ch 42 Davos II)

Same ol same ol he tells to Davos, we see Stannis's true face early on, the one he shows to his adoptive father, no masks, no lies of duty and we actualy get to see how hard is for Selyse to convince him to kill Renly.

 

Quote

Only say the word, and embrace the power of the Lord of Light.” “How many swords will the Lord of Light put into my hand?” Stannis demanded again. “All you need,” his wife promised. “The swords of Storm’s End and Highgarden for a start, and all their lords bannermen.” “Davos would tell you different,” Stannis said. “Those swords are sworn to Renly. They love my charming young brother, as they once loved Robert … and as they have never loved me.” “Yes,” she answered, “but if Renly should die …”Stannis looked at his lady with narrowed eyes, until Cressen could not hold his tongue. “It is not to be thought. Your Grace, whatever follies Renly has committed—” “Follies? I call them treasons.” Stannis turned back to his wife. “My brother is young and strong, and he has a vast host around him, and these rainbow knights of his.” “Melisandre has gazed into the flames, and seen him dead.” Cressen was horrorstruck. “Fratricide … my lord, this is evil, unthinkable … please, listen to me.” Lady Selyse gave him a measured look. “And what will you tell him, maester? How he might win half a kingdom if he goes to the Starks on his knees and sells our daughter to Lysa Arryn?” “I have heard your counsel, Cressen,” Lord Stannis said. “Now I will hear hers. You are dismissed.”

That's all it took.

 

 

11 hours ago, Walda said:

One could as easily accuse Renly of killing Robert by letting the boar gore him.

No, one could not, good try tho.

[Hugorfonics]

On 2/21/2021 at 4:07 AM, frenin said:

Starks depends of Lysa and Stannis would have been the soler allying figure for the northeners so, certainly easier.

Stark was probably going to lose his battle in MC, Lysa was definitely not entering the war and Stannis doesn't have allies (excluding Jon)

On 2/21/2021 at 4:07 AM, frenin said:

But he did hold it, which is the only impressive feat he actually has, screwing them so hard and still not being killed, let alone depose it.

Not one Ironislander feels like they were screwed by Balon, even with their democratic parties only good things were said about their king. 

Balon brought the Iron Islanders wealth and glory unseen in centuries.

On 2/21/2021 at 4:07 AM, frenin said:

You were talking about lands and castles acquired through the conflict, it is a fact that every other pretender fared far better than Balon.

Yet here you are acting as if Balon was Aegon the Conqueror by taking 4 empty castles.

We' re going in circles. At the time of Robb and Renlys death the total land conquered consists of the small and far land of the Crag. 

Stannis lost badly in the 5 kings war, while Joffrey only conquered Harrenhal, a large castle in far away land. 

Balon fared the best.

On 2/21/2021 at 4:07 AM, frenin said:

do you have the numbers?

Sure. The numbers Lady Whent defended Harrenhal with were not enough

On 2/21/2021 at 4:07 AM, frenin said:

Euron was crowned after Tywin died and wouldn't have had that easy tine anyawy, Stannis was stuck in Dragonstone and once in the North, northeners were far more welcoming with him once Tywin died

Euron faced resistance at home but only an excuse of a Redwyne fleet to fight his Iron Captain brother. Tywin would have had 0 effect.

The mountain lords followed Stannis when he came to them, Tywin was not in the equation. And out of the "real" northen lords, not one has followed Stannis yet

On 2/21/2021 at 4:07 AM, frenin said:

Well, he was sitting atop Vhagar, odd comparison, i'd say that Tywin did accomplish something.

Whys it an odd comparison? An army is akin to a dragon for smallfolk.

Tywin accomplished in creating a deep enmity with KL and the Riverlords, he also accomplished turning its smallfolk into outlaws.

Nice work. 

On 2/21/2021 at 4:07 AM, frenin said:

It was his vanguard and his forced march tho,

The van was led by Garlen, so perhaps Renlys shade won the battle? And the march was induced by Petyr who brought Mace to KL.

Tywin  just happend to be there, he was not responsible for KLs victory

[X-Buster]

I would "support" the weakest one.  The easiest one to topple over.  That's Balon Greyjoy.  It will be easy for Dany to turn the people against the Ironborn and reclaim her kingdom.  

[Mad King Bolton]

It's a complicated question because several of them overlap.  Lastly I'd say Joffrey because he's shit in charge, wasn't groomed to rule, doesn't listen to advisors, and wouldn't uphold he law past his enjoyment as a sadist.  I doubt he'd rule particularly wrong.  Also he's a bastard who shouldn't be an option.  4th would be Really.  Really is a likeable guy, loved by the people.  He'd make an excellent lord if he stayed in his lane.  As king he might not have been bad either as he was open handed, smart with good advisors though he seemed to make his own decisions as a ruler should.  He was soft, but seemed to be hard when he had to be as was evident in his preparation for battle with Stannis.  He had no claim though as the youngest son.  If Stannis willingly abdicated then fine, but he didn't.  3rd was Balon. He made a land grab against another kingdom.  not the reaving of his culture, but a full on assault.  I understand and respect his right to sovereignty when those you bent the knee to were gone.  However, trying to take over another kingdom makes me lose all respect for him.  Fair, the Iron Islands are shit and he wanted some mainland to expand the kingdom, but he didn't even attempt to take back land the I.I. lost during the conquest like Harrenhal.  So fuck him.  2nd was Robb.  Make the North independent sure.  Got no problem with that for the same reason Balon can regain sovereignty.  I wish Robb stayed north of the neck once Ned was gone and his rebellion was mostly pushed by his popularity with his men and their support of him.  He was pretty much pushed into it.  His Tully blood is more what got him killed in the end since the Riverlands is a losing position to hold.  If he stayed in the North to be King in the North then he'd have probably been fine.  I doubt the rest of the kingdom would muster to go win back the North at the beginning of winter.  

My top choice for support is Stannis.  Rightful king by the laws the land followed.  He just couldn't prove it universally.  Stannis is not a tyrant.  He doesn't follow his own law and make things up as he goes and destroy or take what he wants.  He follows an established law with established consequences.  He could be more lenient, he could be gentler, but this is his character.  He's got plenty of faults and plenty of virtues and he would have been a strong king.  Unloved but strong and the land would have likely prospered as a result.  He'd be a tough act to follow though and whomever followed would surely want to be more loved and have weakness like Aegon's son, or he'd overcompensate and try to be like Stannis and be more of a Maegor.  That's how I see it.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

22 minutes ago, Mad King Bolton said:

4th would be Really.  Really is a likeable guy, loved by the people.

Damn your autocorrect must be really shite.

[Walda]

Renly, renly shite

[The Commentator]

On 2/19/2021 at 4:19 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Wouldn't Robb be better for that (presuming he has a brain and goes for the Throne and not independence) given it'd mean that as long as Theon takes Winterfell, then Jon, a Targaryen, would be the heir.

Like I said, I want Princess Daenerys to have Westeros.  Balon will give the weakest resistance.  Robb is an incompetent.  He might not be a bad choice.  The wolf will eventually alienate his own supporters.