Which of the kings do/did you support in WOT5K?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Like I said, I want Princess Daenerys to have Westeros.

You said you wanted House Targaryen. The two are actually different, in case you didn't know. House Targaryen was at the time of the WotK made up of 5 people, Jon, Aegon, Bloodraven, Aemon and Dany, with between one and three being ahead in the line of succession.

Or do you wished for her to be an Usurper?

[lrresistable]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

You said you wanted House Targaryen. The two are actually different, in case you didn't know. House Targaryen was at the time of the WotK made up of 5 people, Jon, Aegon, Bloodraven, Aemon and Dany, with between one and three being ahead in the line of succession.

Or do you wished for her to be an Usurper?

Jon is a bastard, Bloodraven is a bastard, Aemon is dead and took NW vows anyway?

Prince Aegon is most likely the 1 presented in the Throne Room by Tywin for Robert. It's heavily implied this Aegon Illyrio produced is a pretender. If he wasn't, why not introduce him to Viserys & Dany pre Game of Thrones?

 

Jon's claim of being a trueborn would still be dubious at best. Even if records miraculously appeared showing Rhaegar & Lyanna as married. Dany's dragons mark her as the undisputed champion & heir worthy of House Targaryen, giving her the best claim even if Jon was a true-born.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, lrresistable said:

Dany's dragons mark her as the undisputed champion & heir worthy of House Targaryen

That's the logic Maegor used when usurping his nephew, also called Aegon. I guess it's good foreshadowing...

4 minutes ago, lrresistable said:

It's heavily implied this Aegon Illyrio produced is a pretender.

There's only circumstantial proof at best, and nothing definitive. There is no proof he isn't who he claims he is.

5 minutes ago, lrresistable said:

If he wasn't, why not introduce him to Viserys & Dany pre Game of Thrones?

Because Dany and Viserys were being followed for one, and also Viserys would go ape

[lrresistable]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That's the logic Maegor used when usurping his nephew, also called Aegon. I guess it's good foreshadowing...

Not really. Aegon had a dragon. Most of the Targs had dragons back then. That was just Maegor straight up usurping the Throne. Also, there's no need to downplay Dany birthing dragons from her fossil eggs. Even if we take everything at face value with fAegon (which i'm sure George R.R Martin would disapprove of) The Targ's aren't even the legitimate rulers of Westeros anymore. The Throne will have to be taken.

 

I think after Preston Jacob's Page of Lies series, it's possible Dany isn't even legitimate. Maybe a bastard of Aerys & Ashara. Or a baby swap happened at Starfall and she is Rhaegar's child.  And i think she'll be dead by the time the books finish anyway. But i also think it's beyond clear she's the real Targaryen claimant. The dragons have irrefutably proved it. Even though by the time of ADwD she's treating them like absolute shit.

 

Whether this Aegon is a Brightflame, or son of  Illyrio by Serra who could be a Blackfyre from the female line (most likely given his attachment toward him), or hell, even a distant relation of Saera Targaryen. If i want to be mean, could just be a by-blow off a Lyseni whore of pure Valyrian stock. We don't know. All we know is that we're asked to question the official narrative.

 

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

There's only circumstantial proof at best, and nothing definitive. There is no proof he isn't who he claims he is.

It's not just circumstantial. I won't go into all the textual evidence it as it's been covered extensively by the board already, but the majority of readers are of the belief that he's not what he's purported to be. Though it's clear he thinks he's Truegon, and i won't fault him for being lied to.

 

5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Because Dany and Viserys were being followed for one, and also Viserys would go ape

Followed inside Illyrio's Manse? No. It's confirmed by Robert / the small council that "the usurpers knives" never followed them trying to assassinate them, though i'm 100% sure they were followed by others.

Viserys would've been killed off by Illyrio if he didn't die on the Dothraki Sea. He's just a pawn. Seems kind of weird to hold 3 Targaryen's and never tell the other 2 about him. But it could be true, if the plan was Dany & Drogo's Dothraki horde was supposed to weaken Westeros & then  Aegon was supposed to come in with the Golden Company to clean house?

The idea of sacrificing the 2 Targaryen's to weaken the 7 Kingdoms then the Blackfyre heir who just ended their line comes in, passing himself off as a Targaryen Prince, invades with the Golden Company. Thematically sounds like our author.

[lrresistable]

On 2/22/2021 at 12:18 PM, frenin said:

1. The past is the past and we are not talking about 18 yo Stannis or 8 yo Renly, Tywin also was once fiercely loyal to Aerys,  Renly was with Robert when he died. Stannis was in Dragonstone, with a fleet that wasn't his and started hiring mercs months ago there was sign of trouble.

Stannis is openly disloyal in AGOT.

He never thought that, in fact  he would have gladly stayed had he been named Hand and his life wouldn't have been less at risk.

He left because he wasn't named Hand and from that moment there on, he is nothing but disloyal. 

While i resent your claim that Stannis shouldn't be in fear for his life, seeing as he brang his suspicions to Jon Arryn, who investigated the matter as an impartial on his behalf, then he conveniently ends up dead soon after. And we know Pycelle, a Lannister lackey, makes sure he dies on his death-bed.

 

It does seem that once Robert decided to head North to seek Ned and bestow the Handship upon him, this was the final straw that made him take most of the Royal Fleet and leave King's Landing and Robert to his fate with the Lannisters. And that's all but confirmed when he's sits around waiting for him to die while gathering his vassal-Lords to prepare for war and hiring sellswords.

 

The only part i don't get is the months of peace the Realm while this is all happening. It seems GRRM has made errors regarding Stannis in his early writing back in Game of Thrones. The main one being, if he's waiting for Robert to die, why isn't he seeking out the bastards to prove his claim? Robert had like 17 of them, some of them very well-known.

Mya would've been easy to bring to Dragonstone. Edric is noble-born on both sides, and he could invite him to Dragonstone for a visit. We're assume he's aware of Gendry as Jon has him as part of his evidence he would bring to Robert. Stannis effectively sits there and stews, brooding on Dragonstone. It's only after he dies that he seems to start sending Davos & his men off to try gather support. I'm going to write it off as a plot device by our author so he doesn't get the support he desperately needs and has to confront Renly later on at Storm's End.

As for why he didn't park his army down from Dragonstone and bring the revelation to Ned (who had almost worked it out by the time when he was Hand), that's pretty clear too. Even if Robert had believed him & Ned and went to war with the Lannisters, which they would have decisively won, Robert still would've remarried and produced an heir not long after. He'd be in his late 30's by then, but more than capable of producing children. Stannis still wouldn't get his hands on the Throne, even if he had been named heir.

The conclusion i've come to of him essentially waiting for Robert's death does seem to directly contradict the character. Or at least the one he portrays himself to be. He talks about his duty to Robert, how he always did his duty, and that Renly should do his duty by him. Yet at the end, when Robert is a shadow of his former self, he's done with him. So much for duty. He talks of not coveting the Throne, yet it's his by rights, so if he doesn't want it, why not pass it over to Renly and be his Hand?

GRRM has explicitly stated he's changing a couple character arcs of players who have died in the show. I think this means now more than ever, that Stannis will end up on the side of the Others. Especially seeing as he's all but certainly going to be the first line of defence when The Wall comes down.

[Sir Tumbleweed]

5 hours ago, lrresistable said:

The conclusion i've come to of him essentially waiting for Robert's death does seem to directly contradict the character. Or at least the one he portrays himself to be. He talks about his duty to Robert, how he always did his duty, and that Renly should do his duty by him. Yet at the end, when Robert is a shadow of his former self, he's done with him. So much for duty. He talks of not coveting the Throne, yet it's his by rights, so if he doesn't want it, why not pass it over to Renly and be his Hand?

GRRM has explicitly stated he's changing a couple character arcs of players who have died in the show. I think this means now more than ever, that Stannis will end up on the side of the Others. Especially seeing as he's all but certainly going to be the first line of defence when The Wall comes down.

He wasn't just waiting for Robert to die, nor was he preemptively gathering swords. He went to Dragonstone because Arryn got murdered, for Stannis's own hunch. Stannis fled out of self preservation because he was afraid Robert would kill him at the mention of his kids being bastards.

Also I feel like you misunderstood Stannis. He doesn't covet the throne, so much as it is his turn as Roberts true heir. And yes he did his duty to Robert over the year in many ways. Most notably wrecking the Ironborn at (fair isle?) as well as holding off the siege of Storms End. 

People cite alot of his other fanatical flaws when they hear that he holds the law in high regard. But he really does hold the law as high value (probably as compensation for his poor social skills). Asking "Why not pass it over to Renly" kindof shows that you haven't put yourself in his shoes. 

[lrresistable]

1 hour ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

He wasn't just waiting for Robert to die, nor was he preemptively gathering swords. He went to Dragonstone because Arryn got murdered, for Stannis's own hunch. Stannis fled out of self preservation because he was afraid Robert would kill him at the mention of his kids being bastards.

I don't think Robert would kill him for telling the truth. Especially once he conveys that he went to Jon Arryn first, and that he was murdered after receiving the info. 

He was pre-emptively gathering swords. That can't be disputed at this point. In fact, we know from Cressen / Davos as soon as we get Stannis chapters on Dragonstone just how long they've been gathering their strength for.  Stannis's actions make no logical sense unless he is waiting for Robert to get murdered, and is preparing for war in the fallout. Ned summons him to King's Landing multiple times.

 

I'm not disputing that Stannis did well by Robert. He did more by Robert than almost any brother would have. But the man Robert is by Game of Thrones isn't the same man. A glutton, a drunk, a man who takes whores to bed every day other day. He beggars the Realm and thinks only of his base pleasures. He neglects his children and doesn't take Joffrey to hand, even after he tortures animals. He does not even look after his bastards, that is left to his administrators Varys & Jon Arryn.. He does no governing and only cares for himself and his wants. He is quite contemptible, and you can understand why Stannis was done with him at this point. Every man has a limit.

 

I have put myself in his shoes, and his protestations that he doesn't want the Throne fall short. He could have chosen to abdicate in favor of Renly, who had huge groundswell support and was set to sweep the Lannisters without him. He does want the Throne, and he wants Renly to do him duty as his young brother, as he did Robert. The only problem is Stannis didn't keep true to Robert when he needed him most, so it becomes hypocritical of him to ask for Renly's subservience. 

Unless someone can explain why he called the banners on his liege-lords to consolidate an army, why he's hiring swords and sellsails, why he took the Royal Fleet, why he ignores Ned's summons, why he doesn't at least co-ordinate with Renly, why he blockades Dragonstone and goes radio silent, why he doesn't bring his force down on the Lannisters or to King's Landing before his death, and why he doesn't tell Robert that he's in danger, at least by some proxy. He has so many options, yet he keeps waiting.

[Mad King Bolton]

On 2/23/2021 at 4:55 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Damn your autocorrect must be really shite.

hehe, whoops.  I hope we know I meant Renly.  I gotta watch that.  Or did you disagree that he was very likeable?

[Wisconsin]

Which of the kings did you support in WOT5K?  Viserys Targaryen.  He was across the oceans but his claim was the best.  He was the rightful king of Westeros and his sister is the true heir. 

Which of the kings do you support in WOT5K?  Daenerys Targaryen.

[CamiloRP]

55 minutes ago, Wisconsin said:

Which of the kings did you support in WOT5K?  Viserys Targaryen.  He was across the oceans but his claim was the best.  He was the rightful king of Westeros and his sister is the true heir. 

Which of the kings do you support in WOT5K?  Daenerys Targaryen.

None of them was a part of the war.

Did you really support an abusive, violent madman? Do you really support dive right?

[Lady_Qohor]

Maybe I haven't read the text closely enough because I feel we don't have enough information on what the candidates would be like as King. We know what they're like personally and how good they are at war but next to nothing on their tax policies, trade policies, agricultural policies. What are their attitudes to roads, ports, education, are they big state or small state? Are they isolationist or do they care about what's going on in Essos? 

Interestingly Daenerys is the ruler we know most of the above for, because we've actually seen her rule...but she wasn't one of the five Kings. 

[The Commentator]

22 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Maybe I haven't read the text closely enough because I feel we don't have enough information on what the candidates would be like as King. We know what they're like personally and how good they are at war but next to nothing on their tax policies, trade policies, agricultural policies. What are their attitudes to roads, ports, education, are they big state or small state? Are they isolationist or do they care about what's going on in Essos? 

Interestingly Daenerys is the ruler we know most of the above for, because we've actually seen her rule...but she wasn't one of the five Kings. 

We have seen Robb, Cersei, Joffrey, and Jon fail at leadership.  Cersei and Joffrey reached the throne and failed.  Robb tried to make a throne for himself and failed.  Jon was a failure at the wall.  Giving him a higher office is not going to happen because he can't even manage the few people at the wall.  The situation in Meereen is a work in progress.  I believe Dany will be successful in putting an end to slavery.  She has already proven her skills as a leader.

[Walter White]

Easily Robb as he is the only one who is remotely decent. He even died because he was trying to protect someone else's reputation.

[Walter White]

On 2/21/2021 at 10:06 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

How?

Did he have more experience than Stannis?

Did he show more loyalty?

Did he ever prove better than Stannis at military or administrative matters?

Considering Ned didn't leave Robert when he thought there was a conspiracy to murder him because he was pissy over not getting a promotion i think it's fair to say Ned was more loyal.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Robb Stark, all the way. Joffrey is a little psychopathic piece of **** and I'm so glad he's dead. I only wish he could've been flayed by Ramsay Bolton. Stannis is a able fool who thinks that everything should be his because he's Robert's heir and Joffrey and blahblahblah. Renly is a handsome fool who looks good on a horse and with a crown. Balon thinks in terms, as Tywin said it, of plunder not rule. He can't rule a province that's half of Westeros. He can rule the little backwater that is the Iron Islands but he couldn't rule a kingdom. 

 

But I'd prefer the Mother of Dragons over all, because, well she has dragons and a massive army. The Starks want to steal half of the kingdom.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Robb Stark, though I do like Stannis as a character and is the legitimate king my sympathy and love for house Stark is too strong and Robb is the only really decent person amongst the five kings.

I have never been too fond of Renly for being such a vain, hypocrital and smug character and no word can describe my hate and disdain for Joffrey and Balon.

[Jaenara Belarys]

May I ask why a bunch of old threads are being resurrected, @Terrorthatflapsinthenight9? It's an odd thing, to see a bunch of threads that haven't had a post in months (this one hasn't had a post in eight months). 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

2 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

May I ask why a bunch of old threads are being resurrected, @Terrorthatflapsinthenight9? It's an odd thing, to see a bunch of threads that haven't had a post in months (this one hasn't had a post in eight months). 

I was just doing a research about house Hoare, and then in the results I found this thread about who you root in the war of the Five Kings so I just decided to put my opinion.

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 minute ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I was just doing a research about house Hoare, and then in the results I found this thread about who you root in the war of the Five Kings so I just decided to put my opinion.

There's a wiki for that. Here: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Main_Page

Research compiled in a page, thanks to the admins and the others down in the wiki thread. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

There's a wiki for that. Here: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Main_Page

Research compiled in a page, thanks to the admins and the others down in the wiki thread. 

Not in the wiki, I was searching to see if there was a thread about this house in the forum.