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McGuv19

Which of the kings do/did you support in WOT5K?

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I think ultimately he'd be a troublesome king (which one wouldn't though?) but I would probably support Stannis. After he names an heir other than the dead girl of course. We don't need to do this again in 10 years.

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1 hour ago, King17 said:

Robb really should've taken the frey advice and basically sat out the war and joined or opposed the Victor depending on who it was.

No, Robb should have declared for Stannis, like he was clearly intending to do before Greatjon hijacked the council. If he had brought the North and the Riverlands to Stannis' aid, then that lessens Melisandre's grip on Stannis (after all, she predicted nobody would support him), and then instead of becoming her thrall, as well as draining himself with shadowbabies, maybe he actually becomes more like he is in ADWD? Plus it changes things considerably for everyone else. Renly would be warring on Robert's former allies with the help of Robert's former enemies, which would divide the Stormlanders' view of him. Tywin would also be in much bigger trouble since both Robert's brothers now command armies bigger than his own, and they both despise him. It would still be a bloody conflict, but there's a good chance that Stannis becomes king and relies on trustworthy advisors who can steer him in the right direction.

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8 minutes ago, James Steller said:

No, Robb should have declared for Stannis, like he was clearly intending to do before Greatjon hijacked the council. If he had brought the North and the Riverlands to Stannis' aid, then that lessens Melisandre's grip on Stannis (after all, she predicted nobody would support him), and then instead of becoming her thrall, as well as draining himself with shadowbabies, maybe he actually becomes more like he is in ADWD? Plus it changes things considerably for everyone else. Renly would be warring on Robert's former allies with the help of Robert's former enemies, which would divide the Stormlanders' view of him. Tywin would also be in much bigger trouble since both Robert's brothers now command armies bigger than his own, and they both despise him. It would still be a bloody conflict, but there's a good chance that Stannis becomes king and relies on trustworthy advisors who can steer him in the right direction.

A lot of the blame here goes to Stannis, who delayed declaring himself King. He should have done so earlier, like immediately after hearing of Robert's death. You can't blame Robb for not declaring for Stannis, when he didn't yet know what Stannis's intent was.

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3 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

A lot of the blame here goes to Stannis, who delayed declaring himself King. He should have done so earlier, like immediately after hearing of Robert's death. You can't blame Robb for not declaring for Stannis, when he didn't yet know what Stannis's intent was.

Stannis made his mistakes, but it was common sense that he should be the next in line if Robert's offspring are illegitimate. Robb himself put that together when he was at the council. Based on how things work in Westeros, Renly was a usurper in all senses. And between Stannis and Renly, Stannis ended up actually working to show the kingdoms that he would serve the realm and defend it from the real enemy.

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2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I have always been and will always be loyal to the Targaryen children, Daenerys and Viserys.  My obvious choice will be the weakest of the five.  Whoever will make the restoration of the true Targaryen to the Iron Throne easier.  I believe that person is Balon. 

I want Dany to rule Westeros too.  Balon and the Ironborn are strong though.  Nobody could stop House Hoare until Visenya, Rhaenys, and Aegon came along.  I say Renly would be easier picking.  Supporting Renly would mean Stannis will continue his rebellion and thus make his rule weaker.  Dany and her dragons can then come in and roast the hell out of the Baratheons and their Stark allies. 

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5 hours ago, McGuv19 said:

ie, Robb, Balon, Joffrey, Renly, or Stannis, which of them did you hope would succeed and which do you think would be/would have been the best outcome for the realm at large? For me factors include the personal qualities of each king, what their cause was, and the positives and negatives of their success, both short and long term.

For example, Renly was the most liked king among the smallfolk and imo would most likely have been able to restore peace the quickest had he won. However, if he ascended to the Iron Throne, in the long term this may create a problem, as it would set a dangerous precedent, with the heir seen as the most capable taking the throne rather than the oldest, which could create more succession wars in the future.

Personally, the king who I supported the least is Balon, since he really should have learnt a rebellion was not the way to go back in Greyjoy’s rebellion, and also how he wanted to revive the Ironborn’s reaver culture and raid Westeros again is hardly sustainable. Also, to me he seems to make poor decisions, as he refused to attack Lannisport because Tywin was “too cunning by half”, which didn’t really make sense given that since he literally wants to secede from the 7K, he would definitely be on Tywin’s hit list regardless of attacking Lannisport or not, albeit near the bottom.

Anyway, what are your 2 cents on this? Was Robb right to rebel? Should Renly have tried to jump the order of succession? And is there anyone on this forum who actually respects Balon?

Completely practical here. Would have gone Renly excepting extenuous circumstances for obvious reasons and then prolly just stay neutral after his death.

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45 minutes ago, James Steller said:

No, Robb should have declared for Stannis, like he was clearly intending to do before Greatjon hijacked the council. If he had brought the North and the Riverlands to Stannis' aid, then that lessens Melisandre's grip on Stannis (after all, she predicted nobody would support him), and then instead of becoming her thrall, as well as draining himself with shadowbabies, maybe he actually becomes more like he is in ADWD? Plus it changes things considerably for everyone else. Renly would be warring on Robert's former allies with the help of Robert's former enemies, which would divide the Stormlanders' view of him. Tywin would also be in much bigger trouble since both Robert's brothers now command armies bigger than his own, and they both despise him. It would still be a bloody conflict, but there's a good chance that Stannis becomes king and relies on trustworthy advisors who can steer him in the right direction.

Why declare for stannis?  He hadn't declared himself a king yet and  They didn't know about the incest at the time. Also it wouldn't have divided the stormlords they had no reason to be loyal to robb whatsoever.

Edited by King17

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3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Balon was a dick to his son and warred on noble Robb instead of asshole Tywin so I understand the hate, but in terms of land and castle grabs there was no more efficient ruler in the wars after Robert. (3 out of 5)

If you're talking about lands and castle grabs held for a moon turn, all the pretenders have done far better than Balon and that includes Young Griff.

Balon held 4 castles and Sheasore point briefly which is far less than Robb (4some castles in the West + Riverlands  briefly), Stannis (Stormlands + Narrow sea briefly), Renly (Reach). That without talking about the winners who got the whole pie briefly.

All of them gained considerably more than Balon.

 

 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The young wolf firmly holds the title of the greatest king in the war, only out done by betrayal and murder (1 out of 5)

Nah, Renly and soon enough Young Griff for me.

 

If i were to choose and since i don't particularly enjoy the cold I'd say, Renly -> Tywin -> Young Griff.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

You can blame the Greatjon for suggesting the whole "King in the North!" idea.

In theory it might've worked although I think it would've required him to abandon the riverlands.

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3 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Other way around, but I see your point. 

Ahh! So it is, thank you ser. My fault.

3 hours ago, broken one said:

joffrey, of course. the only obstacle to communism to take over the realm.

I thought that was Cat? Took control over the radical peoples revolution and replaced the zeal with the cult of personality that is Stoneheart (which is just superbly spot on)

3 hours ago, broken one said:

good, tyrants paved the way for democracy.

Shout with me - all for Joffrey!

Did they? Idk, Louis XVI wasnt that bad neither was Nicholas II. I mean, fuck em, but theyre no Joff. But every bit counts I suppose

Trouble with the kid was his short reign. No chance to really wild out on the people like that. Yea he shot em and demanded a few heads here and there but they mostly looked the other way. Didnt think twice about this stuff when Margery opened her fathers blockade. Fuckin fleabottomers...

The real signs of Joffs tyranny is of course to Sansa. As Tyrion asks, is this your sense of chivalry? But its not just Joffs. Half the court is there, their cousin, the most famous knights in the world.  Its not just the King, not just his court or their peasants but the whole damn city, from the little birds in the walls to the one eyed cats on the kitchen table

3 hours ago, broken one said:

Do you think the rule of aristocracy would be better? I cannot see any other option than monarchy or oligarchy in the place and the time. 

I agree democracy in 7 kingdoms year 300ish is a bad idea. Damn fleabottomers will have like 40% of the vote, screw those guys. Then oldtown and whatever strings the grey rats can pounce on will take pretty much the remainder and fuck that. Better off with Joff. 

The indigenous of the Vale have something like an electoral democracy going on and they seem pretty content with their leadership. But theyre only a few thousand at best, also a bunch of terrorists 

Beric and Cat have something pretty nifty going on, a peoples army that dont answer to anyone else, kinda like the faith militant which can be pretty dicey.

Whatever it is now though is unacceptable. What Aerys was able to do should be a total reach of his human powers, hes not a dragon, and Robert did nothing to permanently curb the ITs power

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

No, Robb should have declared for Stannis, like he was clearly intending to do before Greatjon hijacked the council.

He never intended to do so.

 

44 minutes ago, James Steller said:

but it was common sense that he should be the next in line if Robert's offspring are illegitimate. Robb himself put that together when he was at the council.

Robb didn't do that. He made clear that Tommen should succeed Joffrey as Robert's heir after Joffrey died (by his hands),

 

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“Renly is not the king,” Robb said. It was the first time her son had spoken. Like his father, he knew how to listen. “You cannot mean to hold to Joffrey, my lord,” Galbart Glover said. “He put your father to death.” “That makes him evil,” Robb replied. “I do not know that it makes Renly king. Joffrey is still Robert’s eldest trueborn son, so the throne is rightfully his by all the laws of the realm. Were he to die, and I mean to see that he does, he has a younger brother. Tommen is next in line after Joffrey.”

Robb didn't believe the children illegimate, Stannis sat on top of that info until ACOK  and by then both Robb and Renly had crossed the Rubicon.

Had Stannis opened his mouth earlier however and told the world about the twincest however, it's likely that Robb would have thrown his luck with him.

 

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“Renly is crowned,” said Marq Piper. “Highgarden and Storm’s End support his claim, and the Dornishmen will not be laggardly. If Winterfell and Riverrun add their strength to his, he will have five of the seven great houses behind him. Six, if the Arryns bestir themselves! Six against the Rock! My lords, within the year, we will have all their heads on pikes, the queen and the boy king, Lord Tywin, the Imp, the Kingslayer, Ser Kevan, all of them! That is what we shall win if we join with King Renly. What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?” “The right,” said Robb stubbornly. Catelyn thought he sounded eerily like his father as he said it. “So you mean us to declare for Stannis?” asked Edmure. “I don’t know,” said Robb. “I prayed to know what to do, but the gods did not answer. The Lannisters killed my father for a traitor, and we know that was a lie, but if Joffrey is the lawful king and we fight against him, we will be traitors.”

Piper was right btw and so were Renly and Cressen. The Lannisters were the common enemy of the most powerful pretenders yet...

 

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And between Stannis and Renly, Stannis ended up actually working to show the kingdoms that he would serve the realm and defend it from the real enemy.

I mean... Renly died.

 

@Hugorfonics

 

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Balon conquered land in enemy territory and held it down. Robb had no intention of staying in the west permanently nor felt the sting of working with its conquered subjects.

Same with the Baratheons. 

And Balon did?? He took four castles and called it a day and died before losing them. Robb did the same and even signed off his death warrant by adding the Westerlings to his cause via marriage and lost it by death. He also got the Riverlands.

The Baratheons controlled vast swaths of lands at one point or the other of the war and Stannis has taken a good deal of the lands and castles Balon took and they had intention to stay. Hell, they were aiming to take the whole pie. 

Literally no difference and all of them got far more tempting prizes that Balon could ever hope for. Hell, even Euron is having far more success than Balon could ever hope for and he understood that there is nothing to gain in the North and has focused on plundering the Reach... getting far more bigger prizes.

 

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Weird, he didnt do anything. Just like Aegon

He marshalled the greatest army Westeros has ever seen, far more impressive than Balon conquering 4 empty castles.

 

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Tywins not a king. But just like the others he didnt do anything, well he conquered Harrenhall which is something i guess, easy work tho

Decimated the Riverlands and then won the war, not that his perfomance during it was always top notch but the results speak for themselves.

Edited by frenin

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8 minutes ago, frenin said:
 

If you're talking about lands and castle grabs held for a moon turn, all the pretenders have done far better than Balon and that includes Young Griff.

Balon held 4 castles and Sheasore point briefly which is far less than Robb (4some castles in the West + Riverlands  briefly), Stannis (Stormlands + Narrow sea briefly), Renly (Reach). That without talking about the winners who got the whole pie briefly.

All of them gained considerably more than Balon.

Balon conquered land in enemy territory and held it down. Robb had no intention of staying in the west permanently nor felt the sting of working with its conquered subjects.

Same with the Baratheons. 

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Nah, Renly and soon enough Young Griff for me.

Weird, he didnt do anything. Just like Aegon

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

I'd say, Renly -> Tywin -> Young Griff.

Tywins not a king. But just like the others he didnt do anything, well he conquered Harrenhall which is something i guess, easy work tho

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

He took four castles and called it a day and died before losing them.

We dont know what he called it. He was at the height of his power before getting murdered by a faceless assassin. If he lived the norths fate would be different

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Robb did the same and even signed off his death warrant by adding the Westerlings to his cause via marriage and lost it by death. He also got the Riverlands

Yea it looks like that. 

The Riverlords made Robb their king, he didnt really conquer it

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Baratheons controlled vast swaths of lands at one point

Didnt conquer it though

1 hour ago, frenin said:

the other of the war and Stannis has taken a good deal of the lands and castles Balon took and they had intention to stay. Hell, they were aiming to take the whole pie

Oh yea. The only one of the 5 with a crown is far ahead, he is also the only one alive.

Unless you tweak the definition of someone with the crown, and alive, in which case Cats got a solid foothold in the RL, which I guess she didnt conquer, Beric did

But back to 5 kings, during the war of 5 to conquer some or all of Westeros, whats the definition? As some random maester from oldtown says, renly croaked before balon crowned. 

So its already tweaked, cats alive, all bets on the table. Without a doubt the king who conquered the most land and probably defeated the intensest battles, like giant and mammoth battles, gotta be the one beyond o wall. He was king then, no? He sought to conquer like I assume something past CB, right?

But the crown that coveted KL the most, defeated the most armies and concretely conquered the most during the war of 5 gotta be Dany.

So yea, change my answer . Dany 1 then Robb, and then... Hmmm... Tie. Mance/Balon. Maybe a little more Mance. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Hell, even Euron is having far more success than Balon

Oh shit, I can rank Euron? Hes far above Balon, I agree.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He marshalled the greatest army Westeros has ever seen, far more impressive than Balon conquering 4 empty castles

And watched them to lose to a girl in a tourney before getting murdered. I think Balons more impressive, although marshaling the girl and honoring her turned out to be super beneficial for westeros.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Decimated the Riverlands and then won the war, not that his perfomance during it was always top notch but the results speak for themselves.

Vargo Hoat and RW speak for themselves? Charming. Whatever, he didnt end the war, and im not saying Vargo and Walder did, im saying Jaime and Cersei did.

Its the Balon argument, they were murdered before the finale. And honestly if Victarion sat the seastone, "vote for me and things will go Balon way", itd probably be a more secure kingdom then Jaimes and Cerseis. 

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Stannis: the rightful king. Not as diplomatic or as well-liked as Robert, but capable, like Cromwell. Like Cromwell, that makes him both a very good and an appalling leader. If only Eddard had told Robert about his bastard heir. I think Robert might have guessed as much already, might have told Ned straight up that he intended to leave the throne to Joffrey, with Ned as Lord Regent, that was why he had made Ned his Hand. But if Robert hadn't known, if it had to be Stannis, then it had better be Stannis from the start, with Cersei and her children safe in Essos.

Joffrey: He is twelve. His character is not immutable, although it isn't promising. With Eddard as Lord Protector, he has potential to be a better king than Robert. If Eddard could only get over his hatred and suspicion of Lannisters. Or at least, learn to channel them into a productive course, and expand them to include at least Lord Baelish and Lord Slynt.

Renly: the King that never was. Donal Noye said he was copper, shiny and pretty to look at but not worth much. He was thinking in terms of swords. But copper is a versatile and useful metal. It can make good knives, spears, and axes, and is especially good for useful everyday things like pots and pans and wire. A King that is bright and shiny and mostly ceremonial is not too bad. He had the love of the Smallfolk and the Chivalry of the South. Renly also had a good grasp of the issues of the small council, and he displayed excellent judgement most of the time. If he had captured Stannis and defeated his host, he would have won at least all of Stannis's lords that converted to the Lannister cause. Maybe, when it came to the crunch, Stannis would not fight against his brother. Renly would have given Catelyn's Grand Council idea serious consideration. He had no real claim to be a king (but then, neither did Robert). His army was huge, but not the most disciplined or experienced. Still, he might have been a great King, especially if he had been co-ruler with Stannis, tempering his brother's harshness.

Robb: Precocious and gifted battle commander. But a tool for the likes of Bolton and Greatjon Umber, Theon Greyjoy, Frey and the Riverlords. He had no right to any crown. He had no claim to the Riverlands. He was too greedy for action. He let Theon persuade him to raise the banners and go to Moat Cailin himself, when he should have stayed in Winterfell. Then he crossed into the Riverlands. His mother and Blackfish have a bias for their own people, but even so, it should have been clear from their dealings with Frey and Darry, Blackwood and Bracken, Vance and Piper, Edmure and Hoster, that it was not a good idea to fight these guys battles for them, and fertilise their topsoil with Northern corpses. That the Riverlands was an undrainable swamp. He should never have permitted them to crown him their King.

Balon: what a twice crowned dunce. What a sad excuse for a human being. If only Robb had listened to his mother and sent a different envoy. The only thing that gave Balon any kind of legitimacy was the inherent stupidity of Ironborn culture. Asha and Theon both show a certain flair as commanders (though they are both far from the people's choice). Victarion can command a Navy. Euron is so capable her almost seems to have come from a different family, as if he were raised in a different culture. He is still psychotically mad and dangerous, but organised, and aware that people won't follow you just because you are king, you have to be an improvement to their life too, somehow as well. Or you have to be able to withdraw their privileges.They don't just expect fealty because you proclaim yourself King.

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I'd support Stannis. I understand he's not the most popular, but he is Robert's true heir. If people had known the royal children were bastards then it probably would have gone straight to him. Too bad Joffrey had so much momentum right out the gate.

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Oh shit, I can rank Euron? Hes far above Balon, I agree.

He's at the top and bottom of every list.

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8 hours ago, James Steller said:

Renly would be warring on Robert's former allies with the help of Robert's former enemies, which would divide the Stormlanders' view of him. Tywin would also be in much bigger trouble since both Robert's brothers now command armies bigger than his own, and they both despise him. It would still be a bloody conflict, but there's a good chance that Stannis becomes king and relies on trustworthy advisors who can steer him in the right direction.

I really like those optics of Renly allying with Robert's enemies a lot. But it's almost as if they were Stannis's enemies all along since Robert was off on the war campaign and Stan the Man was holding Storm's End from the combined might of the Reach (minus Hightowers?).

Tyrells / his Lords effectively stayed out of the war with this weak excuse and never sent their huge numbers to fight actual armies, or the Alliance likely would've ended up losing the war.

How many men and sellswords did Stannis command as Lord of Dragonstone before he went off to fight with Renly? I was under the impression it was just under 5,000 , which isn't alot compared to the armies the Lannister's were fielding during the war.

So i guess say he got the Riverland and Northern support, he'd do a blockade of King's Landing with his massive fleet, and combines his forces to face Tywin's might in the Riverlands. Both sides bash each-other to shit, team Stannis comes up on top due to his superior military intellect. This severely weakens him for when he has to play with Renly,  assuming his younger brother goes ahead and takes KL, crown's himself, and still has a huge army after taking the capitol.

 

Maybe he'd do guerrilla warfare tactics with Tywin, and wait for Renly to advance on King's Landing, putting severe strain on Tywin to either go defend his family and his 'Lannister dynasty lasting a thousand years' , or abandon them to their fate as Renly's army is just too huge. If Tywin engages, he inflicts severe loses before being smashed, weakening Renly's forces to the point Stannis could take him with the combined might of River Lords & Northerners after the Capitol is taken.

If he stays at his stratagem in Harrenhal, and lets King's Landing fall, that changes everything. All his family members will be hostages, and Renly may kill Joff & the kids as Robert was want to do, ending the claimant and setting Stannis as the 'rightful heir' by laws of Westeros. 

 

Which leads me to believe if King's Landing was taken by Renly in this other scenario, or Renly is looming to take it, Tywin is forced to negotiate terms with Stannis. Tywin renounces his grandchildren's Iron Throne claims and makes a deal in which he protects his kids, keeps his power and hold of the Westerlands and provides refuge later on at Casterly Rock for the former "Baratheons" who i believe Tywin doesn't  know are really Jaime & Cersei's kids.

Robb declaring for Stannis really would go well for him imo. I don't think the Storm Lords who supported Renly would like the idea of gunning for Stannis before taking on the Lannister's hold on power. I assume Renly & Stannis were on good terms before he crowned himself, and it was Stannis who needlessly inserted himself into battle with Renly. We don't know how Renly would really feel once Stannis had a mass of support at his back and a legitimate army and base of power at his disposal. His reputation as a commander and Warlord would give him pause, i think.

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11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I thought that was Cat?

I just tried to say something most absurdal I could figure and, at the same time, to make a little dig at dreamers.

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Did they? Idk, Louis XVI wasnt that bad neither was Nicholas II. I mean, fuck em, but theyre no Joff. But every bit counts I suppose

Yes they did. Tyrants in the original meaning, like Peisistratos, Hippias and Hipparchos in Athens, Cypselus and Periander in Corinth. Not just "the bad ruler we do not like". Tyranny was transitional phase between oligarchy and democracy in ancient Greek world. More or less. Tyrants rule was lawless and proped up on lower classes. Louie was legitimate, absolute monarch. Joffrey was just an absolute imbecile.

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Damn fleabottomers will have like 40% of the vote

Id estimate Fleabottomers together with all the other municipal commonalty on the continent for up to 3% of population but that's not the point.

On a serious note - I rooted for Robb while reading for the first time (for rather obvious reasons), but the most suitable person for the job would be Stannis. Renly would be my second choice.

Edited by broken one

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9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

We dont know what he called it. He was at the height of his power before getting murdered by a faceless assassin. If he lived the norths fate would be different

We do know what he did... which wasn't much even after Theon took Winterfell.

Man he had to be in a great low to consider that the height of his power, the Greyjoys had fallen hard since Dagon's days.

Sure the North's fate would be different... For the better.;)

 

 

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea it looks like that. 

The Riverlords made Robb their king, he didnt really conquer it

It really doesn't look like that. Didn't he conquer the Crag and the surroundings and the Westerlings  "ditched" Tywin and pledged fealty to Robb.

Robb retook it Riverrun first and then he was made king so... 

 

 

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea it looks like that. 

The Riverlords made Robb their king, he didnt really conquer it

They controlled lands without opposition, like Balon. Empty lands, empty castles and all that.

 

 

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Oh yea. The only one of the 5 with a crown is far ahead, he is also the only one alive.

Unless you tweak the definition of someone with the crown, and alive, in which case Cats got a solid foothold in the RL, which I guess she didnt conquer, Beric did

But back to 5 kings, during the war of 5 to conquer some or all of Westeros, whats the definition? As some random maester from oldtown says, renly croaked before balon crowned. 

So its already tweaked, cats alive, all bets on the table. Without a doubt the king who conquered the most land and probably defeated the intensest battles, like giant and mammoth battles, gotta be the one beyond o wall. He was king then, no? He sought to conquer like I assume something past CB, right?

But the crown that coveted KL the most, defeated the most armies and concretely conquered the most during the war of 5 gotta be Dany.

So yea, change my answer . Dany 1 then Robb, and then... Hmmm... Tie. Mance/Balon. Maybe a little more Mance. 

 

  • How does it matter that he's the only one alive?? The War of the 5 Kings is not over, it just has different pretenders + Stannis  and so far, Stannis perfomance is better than Balon's, which is astonishing because he's perfomance is bad.
  • I'd say that Dany has yet to participate in Westeros if not yes, she's the greatest conqueror of the land.

 

 

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Oh yea. The only one of the 5 with a crown is far ahead, he is also the only one alive.

Unless you tweak the definition of someone with the crown, and alive, in which case Cats got a solid foothold in the RL, which I guess she didnt conquer, Beric did

But back to 5 kings, during the war of 5 to conquer some or all of Westeros, whats the definition? As some random maester from oldtown says, renly croaked before balon crowned. 

So its already tweaked, cats alive, all bets on the table. Without a doubt the king who conquered the most land and probably defeated the intensest battles, like giant and mammoth battles, gotta be the one beyond o wall. He was king then, no? He sought to conquer like I assume something past CB, right?

But the crown that coveted KL the most, defeated the most armies and concretely conquered the most during the war of 5 gotta be Dany.

So yea, change my answer . Dany 1 then Robb, and then... Hmmm... Tie. Mance/Balon. Maybe a little more Mance. 

I dunno, the girl was already part of his army, she wasn't part of his personal guard. 

I'd say that marshalling the greatest army Westeros has ever seen > Taking empty castles.

 

 

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Vargo Hoat and RW speak for themselves? Charming. Whatever, he didnt end the war, and im not saying Vargo and Walder did, im saying Jaime and Cersei did.

Its the Balon argument, they were murdered before the finale. And honestly if Victarion sat the seastone, "vote for me and things will go Balon way", itd probably be a more secure kingdom then Jaimes and Cerseis. 

Yes, they did. There have been rulers far more succesful than Tywin and far crueler than he was. And the war was over solong he was alive, only Dany had the might to actually threaten Tywin and she was not leaving Essos soon. And i don't knowwhy you badmouth Tywin anyway, you like the idea of Balon literally enslaving the North.

Vic is as dumb as his brother and his only redeeming quality is that he loved his brother, Balon way was doomed to fail anyway, he at least got to die before watching yet another humiliating defeat.

 

9 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

Too bad Joffrey had so much momentum right out the gate.

He only has Stannis to thanks for that.

Edited by frenin

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Robb was the most sympathetic.  Stannis, the most capable.

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