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Which of the kings do/did you support in WOT5K?


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8 hours ago, broken one said:

Id estimate Fleabottomers together with all the other municipal commonalty on the continent for up to 3% of population but that's not the point.

More then that I think. KL alone is probably more then 3%.

12 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

He's at the top and bottom of every list.

Hes lots of fun

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Sure the North's fate would be different... For the better.;)

Yea I guess. If Ironborn never left MC and all the other strongholds Balon took then the North would have less Stannis and Bolton around, so maybe that is betters

5 hours ago, frenin said:

It really doesn't look like that. Didn't he conquer the Crag and the surroundings and the Westerlings  "ditched" Tywin and pledged fealty to Robb.

Then they like poisoned him with an aphrodisiac or something though

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Robb retook it Riverrun first and then he was made king so... 

By random riverlords, Edmure only gave him Riverruns loyalty after his bannermen made his nephew king

5 hours ago, frenin said:

They controlled lands without opposition, like Balon. Empty lands, empty castles and all that.

Balon faced opposition, it just wasnt stiff

5 hours ago, frenin said:
does it matter that he's the only one alive?? The War of the 5 Kings is not over, it just has different pretenders + Stannis  and so far, Stannis perfomance is better than Balon's, which is astonishing because he's perfomance is bad.
  • I'd say that Dany has yet to participate in Westeros if not yes, she's the greatest conqueror of the land.

I think its a different war

5 hours ago, frenin said:

I dunno, the girl was already part of his army, she wasn't part of his personal guard. 

But he called in the army

5 hours ago, frenin said:

I'd say that marshalling the greatest army Westeros has ever seen > Taking empty castles.

Ok. I say its not

5 hours ago, frenin said:

And the war was over solong he was alive, only Dany had the might to actually threaten Tywin and she was not leaving Essos soon.

Robbs two greatest champions, Brynden and Wyman, were defeated by Jaime and Cersei. (Kinda lol) 

Plus Euron and Stannis were still rocking so Tywin obviously still had enemies on the table

5 hours ago, frenin said:

And i don't knowwhy you badmouth Tywin anyway, you like the idea of Balon literally enslaving the North.

Enslaving the norths impressive. More impressive then ordering the gang rape of a teenager

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea I guess. If Ironborn never left MC and all the other strongholds Balon took then the North would have less Stannis and Bolton around, so maybe that is betters

They would have been kicked anyway  and i dare say that having one pretender less in the North would have made Stannis's life considerably easier.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Then they like poisoned him with an aphrodisiac or something though

If you like to believe that, the outcome is the same and has little to do with our argument.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

By random riverlords, Edmure only gave him Riverruns loyalty after his bannermen made his nephew king

I mean it's like saying that Balon was named king by random Ironborn. Yet still mor impressive.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Balon faced opposition, it just wasnt stiff

It was nearly nonexistent which was indeed his plan, facing a non threat. I mean, you consider Tywin taking Harrenhall easy stuff   yet you keep magnifying a "conquest" whose very tenet was facing zero opposition.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

But he called in the army

And Brienne was part of it.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea I guess. If Ironborn never left MC and all the other strongholds Balon took then the North would have less Stannis and Bolton around, so maybe that is betters

All non factors until Tywin actually died.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Enslaving the norths impressive. More impressive then ordering the gang rape of a teenager

You're just mixing things up. I don't think that Tywin ordered any gang rape of teenagers to the Goat. He did to Tysha thobut he wasn't in war then.

Yet actually decimating the Riverlands, winning the Blackwater and winning the war is far more impressive than delusions about enslaving the North and  taking four empty castles.

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57 minutes ago, frenin said:
They would have been kicked anyway  and i dare say that having one pretender less in the North would have made Stannis's life considerably easier.

Bolton or Stark would never come north if Balon lived and Stannis' life would not have been easier

57 minutes ago, frenin said:

If you like to believe that, the outcome is the same and has little to do with our argument.

You brought it up

58 minutes ago, frenin said:

I mean it's like saying that Balon was named king by random Ironborn. Yet still mor impressive.

I agree Balon didnt conquer the Iron Islands

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It was nearly nonexistent which was indeed his plan, facing a non threat. I mean, you consider Tywin taking Harrenhall easy stuff   yet you keep magnifying a "conquest" whose very tenet was facing zero opposition.

Minimal opposition, more then Gregor faced at Harrenhall. All easy stuff though, agreed

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And Brienne was part of it.

The only worthwhile thing Renly did

1 hour ago, frenin said:

All non factors until Tywin actually died.

How so?

1 hour ago, frenin said:

decimating the Riverlands,

This isnt anything. That one eyed Targ in the Dance did that too, it accomplished nothing.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

winning the Blackwater

He didnt, Tyrion did. Or Mace if yould prefer. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

and winning the war

Robbs war ended when the Direwolf fell from Riverrun, after Tywins death

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17 hours ago, lrresistable said:

I assume Renly & Stannis were on good terms before he crowned himself, and it was Stannis who needlessly inserted himself into battle with Renly. 

Stannis and Renly were never close at all. Renly idolised Robert and Robert dislikes Stannis. People can debate this forever, but I put a lot of stock into Cersei's commentary about Robert slighting Stannis with Dragonstone instead of Storm's End. Why would she need to lie about that to Tyrion? Plus when you consider that Robert mocked Stannis on previous occasions, I don't imagine they were ever on good terms, and if Renly takes Robert's side, then that drives yet more wedges. 

18 hours ago, lrresistable said:

So i guess say he got the Riverland and Northern support, he'd do a blockade of King's Landing with his massive fleet, and combines his forces to face Tywin's might in the Riverlands. Both sides bash each-other to shit, team Stannis comes up on top due to his superior military intellect. This severely weakens him for when he has to play with Renly,  assuming his younger brother goes ahead and takes KL, crown's himself, and still has a huge army after taking the capitol.

 

Maybe he'd do guerrilla warfare tactics with Tywin, and wait for Renly to advance on King's Landing, putting severe strain on Tywin to either go defend his family and his 'Lannister dynasty lasting a thousand years' , or abandon them to their fate as Renly's army is just too huge. If Tywin engages, he inflicts severe loses before being smashed, weakening Renly's forces to the point Stannis could take him with the combined might of River Lords & Northerners after the Capitol is taken.

If he stays at his stratagem in Harrenhal, and lets King's Landing fall, that changes everything. All his family members will be hostages, and Renly may kill Joff & the kids as Robert was want to do, ending the claimant and setting Stannis as the 'rightful heir' by laws of Westeros. 

 

Which leads me to believe if King's Landing was taken by Renly in this other scenario, or Renly is looming to take it, Tywin is forced to negotiate terms with Stannis. Tywin renounces his grandchildren's Iron Throne claims and makes a deal in which he protects his kids, keeps his power and hold of the Westerlands and provides refuge later on at Casterly Rock for the former "Baratheons" who i believe Tywin doesn't  know are really Jaime & Cersei's kids.

Neither Stannis nor Renly would have anything to gain by sparing their "niece and nephews". The Lannisters will trumpet them as the rightful heirs, no matter which Baratheon brother emerges on top. Even if they don't want to kill children, they're never going to be allowed to stay in the Westerlands.

But reading through your speculations on how things would have played out, I can't help but notice that if Stannis really wanted to be a thorn in his brother's side, he'd have called off the naval blockade while he sailed to the Riverlands and consolidated his reinforcements. This means that King's Landing isn't starving anymore, and they'd be able to last much longer against Renly's forces.

Meanwhile, assuming Stannis does deal with Tywin first, he's doing it with his original 5,000 plus a slew of highly skilled leaders like Robb and Brynden Tully, with more than 30,000 northmen and riverlords, and that's before mentioning the rest of the North's armies which didn't go south with Robb). Tywin wouldn't even be able to launch raids from Harrenhal with that kind of opposition; he'd soon be at least partially besieged. Plus we can assume that Theon doesn't go to the Iron Islands in this scenario, so while the North might still get attacked, Winterfell never falls. 

What Renly does in that scenario is a mystery to me. He could keep swanning around and trying to starve King's Landing (which wouldn't work if Stannis called off his navy), so he'd have to rush King's Landing and besiege it. He's got a huge army, but the city would still be able to hold him off for a while if they still have the sea (and we know the Redwynes stayed home due to hostages so Renly wouldn't have a fleet of his own). Renly would probably be able to take the city eventually, not without casualties, but what he does with the prisoners (if there are any) is beyond me. Maybe we even get a scenario where Cersei activates the wildfyre as a last resort, killing who knows how many of Renly's army? That would certainly leave Stannis as the clear winner, assuming Cersei and Renly destroy each other and their associates together in one big blast. Tywin would be bereft of heirs, his last living son is a captive in Riverrun, and he'd be facing men from the North and Riverlands whose primary houses both lost a relative in King's Landing (Sansa, but they'd also think Arya was dead too). Maybe they even let Rickard Karstark execute Jaime before they storm Harrenhal and wipe out Tywin? 

Assuming all that happened, the main armies of the Reach, Westerlands, Crownlands, and Stormlands would be broken, leaving Stannis unopposed. Sure, he'd take severe casualties killing Tywin, but he'd manage it, just in time for Mance Rayder's wildling army to bear down on the Wall. Robb would go north, even if Stannis doesn't, and he'd be able to lead a Northern army which, while weakened from the War of the Five Kings, would also have thousands of reinforcements who didn't die during Theon Greyjoy's playing at conquest or Ramsay Snow's power grabs.

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On 2/20/2021 at 1:10 AM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

I want Dany to rule Westeros too.  Balon and the Ironborn are strong though.  Nobody could stop House Hoare until Visenya, Rhaenys, and Aegon came along.  I say Renly would be easier picking.  Supporting Renly would mean Stannis will continue his rebellion and thus make his rule weaker.  Dany and her dragons can then come in and roast the hell out of the Baratheons and their Stark allies

Yes, let Westeros burn, and let's think of the wort option, the one that will cause the most damage.

Because clearly that's GRRM theme. All death and suffering is justified as long as Dany is on the Throne.

It's not like GRRM goes on and on how war is evil and all it's suffering inherently pointless in the never ending game of Thrones.

Literally Fiat Justicia Et Pereat Mundus.

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4 hours ago, James Steller said:

Stannis and Renly were never close at all. Renly idolised Robert and Robert dislikes Stannis. People can debate this forever, but I put a lot of stock into Cersei's commentary about Robert slighting Stannis with Dragonstone instead of Storm's End.

I'm sure they weren't close, but they served on the Small Council together for years.  Renly loves to make fun of people, Stannis more than most, but it's usually easy-going banter. Even after Renly tried to 'usurp' him he still laments that he loved his brother.

Yeah, a lot of people back the idea that Robert was slighting Stannis by taking from him his rightful Lordship. The seat of Storm's End and all incomes, lords, smallfolk etc sworn to it is more powerful by far than the heir's seat of Dragonstone.  Not to mention he clearly loved his home, and was the one who defended it during the war.

I'm not so sure, though. Robert had no legitimate heirs, so he named Stannis as his 2nd in line to the Throne and gave him the Targ seat. Most likely after he defeated the Targaryen fleet and took Dragonstone. It was clearly still early days after their victory and Stannis was of value to him with Ned heading back North.

 

4 hours ago, James Steller said:

Neither Stannis nor Renly would have anything to gain by sparing their "niece and nephews". The Lannisters will trumpet them as the rightful heirs, no matter which Baratheon brother emerges on top. Even if they don't want to kill children, they're never going to be allowed to stay in the Westerlands.

The whole point is Stannis knows they aren't his "niece and nephews", even if he can't prove it to the realm with 100% certainty. I don't think Tywin is dumb enough to fight for Joffrey's claim once Renly is on top of King's Landing with 100,000 men, and Stannis with his bigtime allies in this scenario are surrounding him on all sides. His situation has changed big time. The Whispering Wood will still have happened and Robb holds Jaime. He has little choice but to try secure the lives of his family by agreeing to tell everyone that they are Lannister's.

I'm pretty sure it's said in the text multiple times that Stannis keeps his word, and is honorable in the Eddard Stark vein. The Iron Bank wouldn't be so quick to loan him ridiculous levels of money to raise an army if they didn't think he would pay them back and honor Cersei, Joffrey & Robert's debts.  If Tywin & Stannis come to an Alliance, Stannis takes a bunch of hostages and they ride for King's Landing.

I'm not sure how Robb, The North, Riverlands would feel about these negotiated terms of surrender.. they'd be fighting under the same banner as the Lannisters, even if it means they get disposed from power. Maybe Tywin plots some kind betrayal and withdraws his army and lets Renly & Stannis go at it, but Stannis isn't stupid. He'd have control of the army and would likely put Tywin's forces in the vanguard, frontline to fight Renly and keep his loyal men in reserve.

If Tywin & Stannis don't take Renly's army unawares outside King's Landing, similar to how they do in the book, they might think twice before taking on Tywin, Stannis, North, Riverlands and fighters inside KL itself. Stannis & Tywin are feared. Some Stormlanders may even join Stannis. Yet this 100k force still vastly outnumbers the Stannis Tywin Alliance. Robb bought less than 20,000 down with him, and 5,000 of them died fighting Tywin at the Green Folk under Roose, and some are dead, some at the Twins and elsewhere. Stannis around 5,000, i forget River Lord numbers but i'd say around 10,000, and Tywin's host is 20,000. Robb would have about 12,000 of his own men left.

If i'm being generous, they would be about 50,000 strong. Twice outnumbered if we don't take into account the (5,000?) defenders in King's Landing, so they'd need to take them unawares. In this timeline, Stafford Lannister's army he's gathering at Oxcross still exists though, i think. If they decide to parlay beforehand I really think Reach Lords like Rowan and Florent won't be happy about fighting 3 Kingdoms that can re-supply themselves backed by 2 juggernauts and will abandon Renly. The Stannis fleet still rules the waters as Cersei holds Redwyne's sons hostage in KL as you said

 

5 hours ago, James Steller said:

What Renly does in that scenario is a mystery to me. He could keep swanning around and trying to starve King's Landing (which wouldn't work if Stannis called off his navy), so he'd have to rush King's Landing and besiege it. He's got a huge army, but the city would still be able to hold him off for a while if they still have the sea (and we know the Redwynes stayed home due to hostages so Renly wouldn't have a fleet of his own). Renly would probably be able to take the city eventually, not without casualties, but what he does with the prisoners (if there are any) is beyond me. Maybe we even get a scenario where Cersei activates the wildfyre as a last resort, killing who knows how many of Renly's army? That would certainly leave Stannis as the clear winner, assuming Cersei and Renly destroy each other and their associates together in one big blast. Tywin would be bereft of heirs, his last living son is a captive in Riverrun, and he'd be facing men from the North and Riverlands whose primary houses both lost a relative in King's Landing (Sansa, but they'd also think Arya was dead too). Maybe they even let Rickard Karstark execute Jaime before they storm Harrenhal and wipe out Tywin? 

Assuming all that happened, the main armies of the Reach, Westerlands, Crownlands, and Stormlands would be broken, leaving Stannis unopposed. Sure, he'd take severe casualties killing Tywin, but he'd manage it, just in time for Mance Rayder's wildling army to bear down on the Wall. Robb would go north, even if Stannis doesn't, and he'd be able to lead a Northern army which, while weakened from the War of the Five Kings, would also have thousands of reinforcements who didn't die during Theon Greyjoy's playing at conquest or Ramsay Snow's power grabs.

If Stannis & friends keep Tywin besieged at Harrenhal, then it's Tyrion Renly has to contend with in King's Landing. They will hear about Renly bringing his army nearer and nearer down the Rose Road, and judging from him burning thousands of Stannis's men on the Blackwater and wiping out most of his fleet, i assume he'd devise some kind of plan, but it wouldn't be the same kind of success he was able to pull off against Stannis.

 

I don't think he'd be okay with Cersei burning down KL either, unless he's already dead in a Sortie fighting outside the Gates in the book, which he was only doing to give the gold cloaks courage. Renly could put 15,000 on each gate. They won't have any courage. Their best chance they have is escaping by sea, which they won't if Stannis has his blockade. Which he probably will seeing as he has nothing else to do with his fleet if he's bringing a land army to check Tywin. 

Considering how Stannis came so close to taking the city with his massive losses, Renly could take it with less than 10,000 dead. If the gold cloaks see a literal 100,000 army outside their walls, they might as well just  throw down their weapons too. Hell, the gates may even be opened somewhere for Renly to get his army in.

In either scenario i don't see Stannis wiping out Tywin. Definitely not by storming Harrenhal. They'd smash themselves upon it and likely lose most of their men at a 2 to 1 ratio or worse. With Stefford Lannister gathering a army of 'green boys and the dregs of Lannisport' they could even clear them off after a failed attack.  Anyway, they hold Jaime. King's Landing has fallen or is going to. Stefford Lannister may be gathering an army, but for what? Tywin would be a beaten dog. That's why he'd have to join with Stannis to attack Renly & the Tyrell's outside King's Landing.

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12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Bolton or Stark would never come north if Balon lived and Stannis' life would not have been easier

Bolton for certain, Starks depends of Lysa and Stannis would have been the soler allying figure for the northeners so, certainly easier.

 

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I agree Balon didnt conquer the Iron Islands

But he did hold it, which is the only impressive feat he actually has, screwing them so hard and still not being killed, let alone depose it.

Aren't you cheating at solitaire anyway?? You were talking about lands and castles acquired through the conflict, it is a fact that every other pretender fared far better than Balon.

Yet here you are acting as if Balon was Aegon the Conqueror by taking 4 empty castles.

 

 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Minimal opposition, more then Gregor faced at Harrenhall. All easy stuff though, agreed

Oh do you have the numbers?? 

 

 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

How so?

Euron was crowned after Tywin died and wouldn't have had that easy tine anyawy, Stannis was stuck in Dragonstone and once in the North, northeners were far more welcoming with him once Tywin died.

 

 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

This isnt anything. That one eyed Targ in the Dance did that too, it accomplished nothing.

Well, he was sitting atop Vhagar, odd comparison, i'd say that Tywin did accomplish something.

 

 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He didnt, Tyrion did. Or Mace if yould prefer. 

Robbs war ended when the Direwolf fell from Riverrun, after Tywins death

It was his vanguard and his forced march tho,

 

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

Stannis and Renly were never close at all.

We don't know that.

 

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

Renly idolised Robert and Robert dislikes Stannis.

One does not imply the other.

 

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

Why would she need to lie about that to Tyrion?

She's not lying, she's giving his opinion. Both Cressen and Martin offer a much grounded (and final) opinion. Cersei also says that Storm's End was Stannis, which is certainly wrong.

If Robert really intended to slight Stannis, he would have named him Castellan of Dragonstone for Joffrey, instead of granting it to him in perpetuity.

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9 minutes ago, frenin said:
If Robert really intended to slight Stannis, he would have named him Castellan of Dragonstone for Joffrey, instead of granting it to him in perpetuity.

I don't think it was a slight to begin with, as Stannis was his rightful heir back then. Once he had Joffrey it put him in a bit of bind. He could revoke Renly's titles and hand all of the Stormlands over to Stannis, but the thing is, the Storm Lords will have already sworn oaths of fealty to Renly at that point.

Which makes it difficult. Stannis effectively got The Rogue Prince treatment. I think it came down to Renly being more like Robert, and he wanted him to inherit Storm's End. 

 

 

 

 

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I 100% supported Renly, as I felt all things considered he was the best out of the rest. Let's look at each King's power base and a quick look at their temperament at the start of the WOT5K;

 

Joffrey (Westerlands + Crownlands) - Is a craven, cruel and all together unfit to be King, would be worse than Aerys II 

Balon (Iron Islands) - he's not really even in the running and an Ironborn would never be accepted on the IT, I think we can take a hard pass at him.

Robb (The North + Riverlands) - Has the aptitude of a very good King, and is very talented at warfare, but seriously lacks judgement in certain situations. All together though, not bad at all, probably the best temperament out of the 5. 

Stannis (Dragonstone) - He worships a fire God that the Seven Kingdoms would reject wholeheartedly, and his base is by far the weakest of all the 5. He has very little charisma, though he is a seasoned warrior, and has a strong sense of Justice. Sadly, his faults are greater than his strengths. 

Renly (Reach + Stormlands) - Has by far the strongest base of all 5 Kings, with a lot of capable men around him. Renly himself is charismatic unlike Stannis, with at the very least a certain aptitude for court intrigue and understanding of the Game. He is not cruel or overly hedonistic like Joffrey or Robert were. Let's get something straight, Renly would not make a great King, but a capable one which is an upgrade on the last 3 Kings Westeros has had.

Edited by Muffin King
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2 hours ago, Muffin King said:

Stannis (Dragonstone) - He worships a fire God that the Seven Kingdoms would reject wholeheartedly, and his base is by far the weakest of all the 5. He has very little charisma, though he is a seasoned warrior, and has a strong sense of Justice. Sadly, his faults are greater than his strengths. 

Renly (Reach + Stormlands) - Has by far the strongest base of all 5 Kings, with a lot of capable men around him. Renly himself is charismatic unlike Stannis, with at the very least a certain aptitude for court intrigue and understanding of the Game. He is not cruel or overly hedonistic like Joffrey or Robert were. Let's get something straight, Renly would not make a great King, but a capable one which is an upgrade on the last 3 Kings Westeros has had.

I don't think Stannis would have as many 'faults' if he hadn't been dealt a shitty hand. Everything is exacerbated because the man feels tormented.

His brother announces his Kingship and instantly gets the backing of the Reach (minus Hightowers & Redwynes), his former enemies, and all of the Stormlands (which should have been his) amounting to a 100,000 army. He knows Cersei is a fraud and that Robert's kids were incest spawn, but couldn't / didn't bring that info to Robert (which he likely regrets because he ends up dead.)

half his 'Kingdom' has seceded and crowned Robb. He's got literally 0 support. It visibly eats him up inside and makes him seethe.

Despite all of this we see a renewed Stannis later on at The Wall that is a remarkable improvement. I got the feeling with the way GRRM wrote Stannis & Renly that if you could combine them into 1 person you'd get a great ruler. Or if they co-ruled with the  relationship they should have had, they'd be a unstoppable power-duo.

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4 hours ago, lrresistable said:

Which makes it difficult. Stannis effectively got The Rogue Prince treatment. I think it came down to Renly being more like Robert, and he wanted him to inherit Storm's End

Cressen is the less biased source there is when it comes to the brothers. He says that Robert needed him there. 

 

1 hour ago, lrresistable said:

I don't think Stannis would have as many 'faults' if he hadn't been dealt a shitty hand.

I think he would, the "great  change" that people like to talk about comes after Stannis had to reinvent himself. 

A Stannis with Renly's hand would've been the pinnacle of entitlement.

Yet again, the fact that he had such a bad hand and that people didn't like him should've been a wake up call.

Stannis in ACOK is the opposite of a good pretender.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

I think he would, the "great  change" that people like to talk about comes after Stannis had to reinvent himself. 

He knew his wars in the South were doomed, that's why he went to The Wall and picked up the fight there against the Wildlings / Others.

Interesting that you see it as reinvention. I saw it as resignation. He knows he's done. This isn't him reinventing himself, it's him showing his true self. 

 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

A Stannis with Renly's hand would've been the pinnacle of entitlement.

Yet again, the fact that he had such a bad hand and that people didn't like him should've been a wake up call.

He has a bad hand precisely because people in power do not like him. Especially schemers like Baelish, the Tyrells etc are the forefront of his opposition. That speaks volumes itself.

His bad hand might even have him end up as a lieutenant for the Others, or a Night's King figure.

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Renly.  People, both highborn and low, wanted him as their king.  He could compromise where Stannis wouldn't.  He wasn't some ascetic who'd kick all the prostitutes out of Kings Landing and try to force a foreign religion onto his people.  Renly would likely have worked out a deal with Robb, something akin to what Dorne traditionally had, where the North would be effectively independent while still nominally part of the Seven Kingdoms.   

He also would have accepted that the Lannisters were a part of life in Westeros.   He'd remove them from power and have Cersei and Joffrey executed for treason, but he'd negotiate to have Tommen, and Myrcella, and possibly Tyrion, kept as hostages at Storm's End rather than killed, for the right price (Robert's debts wiped or at least the Lannister portion  of them).  Renly wanted peace and a return to normal, minus Lannister influence, and he'd be willing to horse-trade a hugely beneficial deal behind the scenes with Tywin once he had all the other Kingdoms on his side.   Getting the Lannisters out of Westeros all together, taking Casterly Rock from them, would take years longer, both in fighting and siege, and cost countless more lives; better to beat them down and make a point the way Robert once did with the Greyjoys after their rebellion.   

Once Tywin saw Renly as having the entire realm on his side, save the Westerlands (and possibly the Iron Islands), he'd bend the knee, accept his losses, and move forward.  Once the peace was negotiated, Tywin's primary goal would be getting Jaime to safety and under his own control (if Jaime was still alive).  If paying off the crown's debts and higher taxes until the Iron Bank, the Tyroshi cartels, and the Faith were paid off was the price of that, he'd swallow his ego and go along.   Even if Jaime was killed Tywin would grieve and then begin the task of rebuilding.  He'd take a keener interest in controlling the lives of his siblings and their children, likely remarry despite his distaste for the idea, and set his attention to ensuring he lives long enough to raise family #2 better than family #1.  Tywin would see the fight to regain power as a fight for the next generation, with his war being against time in order to prepare them.

Thus Renly would be king and the realm would lick its wounds, at least until the Night's Watch found a way to convince people of the threat of the dead.   However, Renly, through his flexibility and his lack of great conviction beyond removing the Lannisters from power and becoming king, would have kept far more people alive to fight the dead once he was convinced of the threat.  Ultimately, that was the most important thing.  

Edited by aeverett
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9 hours ago, Muffin King said:

Stannis (Dragonstone) - He worships a fire God

Does he, though?

He sought out and brought Melisandre to Dragonstone after Robert set off to Winterfell to make Eddard Hand when by rights the office should have gone to him.

His wife took up Melisandre's religion. That is why the bannerlords and courtiers who converted to the Red God call themselves "Queen's Men". 

The "King's Men" worship the Seven. Stannis treats faith as a matter of personal choice, and Melisandre confirms that everyone must make their own choice, between the darkness and the light. He maintains a skeptical attitude towards all Gods, seeing only the doings of men where others see shadowbabies. Like Jon, he is not absolutely convinced by Melisandre's prophecies, but not so completely unconvinced that he won't facilitate her acting in accordance with them

Quote

“I know little and care less of gods, but the red priestess has power.”

(ACoK Ch 10 Davos I)

He allows her to burn criminals and icons of faith. He freed Davos and made him Hand at her request. 

He lost all faith when he saw his parents drowned, but Melisandre has used this to get him half-convinced he is Azor Ahai

Quote

"She talks of prophecies … a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone … she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?” He ground his teeth. “We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must … we must do our duty, no?"

(ASoS Ch 54 Davos V)

Not because he believes in R'hllor, but because he believes he is the rightful King. Demanding Stannis does his duty is a winner. That's what Selyse does when she wants some. It works.

The thing I find interesting is that Stannis was seeking out Melisandre without interest in her religious beliefs.

Quote

“I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. Yet he does nothing. Oh, Varys hears his whispers. Stannis is building ships, Stannis is hiring sellswords, Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from Asshai. What does it mean? Is any of it true?”

(AGoT Ch 69 Tyrion IX)

Lord Tywin says this, but I share his sentiments, and a lot of the time it seems as if Stannis does too. 

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4 hours ago, lrresistable said:

He knew his wars in the South were doomed, that's why he went to The Wall and picked up the fight there against the Wildlings / Others.

Interesting that you see it as reinvention. I saw it as resignation. He knows he's done. This isn't him reinventing himself, it's him showing his true self. 

The first thing Stannis does after the battle at the Wall is done is try and make Jon his vassal, he does not think his war is done, he's literally trying to rally the North to his cause.

 

 

4 hours ago, lrresistable said:

He has a bad hand precisely because people in power do not like him. Especially schemers like Baelish, the Tyrells etc are the forefront of his opposition. That speaks volumes itself.

And that should make him reconsider a couple of things,  people in power dislike him,  just as people without power. He has a bad hand because he has done absolutely nothing to cultivate other's love and or loyalty and at the end only the Narrow Sea lords follow him.

He is disliked by schemers, he is dislike by non schemers, he is simply not liked.

 

 

4 hours ago, lrresistable said:

His bad hand might even have him end up as a lieutenant for the Others, or a Night's King figure.

You act as if it wasn't his actions in the first place.

It is his fault he has a bad hand, it is his fault that he doesn't seek allies, it is his fault that he ends as liutenant for the others.

 

 

1 hour ago, Walda said:

when by rights the office should have gone to him.

What right is that??

 

 

1 hour ago, Walda said:

Does he, though?

For all intents and purposes he does.

 

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35 minutes ago, frenin said:

What right is that??

Quote

"I sat on his council for fifteen years, helping Jon Arryn rule his realm while Robert drank and whored, but when Jon died, did my brother name me his Hand? No, he went galloping off to his dear friend Ned Stark, and offered him the honor. And small good it did either of them.”

(ACoK Prologue)

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14 minutes ago, Walda said:
52 minutes ago, frenin said:

What right is that??

Quote

"I sat on his council for fifteen years, helping Jon Arryn rule his realm while Robert drank and whored, but when Jon died, did my brother name me his Hand? No, he went galloping off to his dear friend Ned Stark, and offered him the honor. And small good it did either of them.”

(ACoK Prologue)

Robert's genius should not be understated.

When his hand dies, should he:

- Appoint his brother, a man that has starved for him, that betrayed most of what he stood for for him in the Rebellion, who was one of the two people actually governing the realm, the other being your now dead hand, and a man who time and again did everything asked of gim to a tee.

- Or, your childhood chum who has no experience what so ever and who hates the South, all so a small part of you can pretend you're still a teenager living the glory days.

Clearly he should have chosen Ned.

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24 minutes ago, Walda said:

(ACoK Prologue)

So,  no right then... Delusions are no law.

 

5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- Or, your childhood chum who has no experience what so ever and who hates the South, all so a small part of you can pretend you're still a teenager living the glory days.

Well, Ned clearly was the better choice so... I'll go with Robert this time and let's not talk about the other's loyalty shall we??

 

 

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