Jorah's story reeks of BS, or why he's even worse than we thought.

[Gramse]

Great theory about Jorah, never thought about him as something more than a knight.

This become even more interesting when considering who and why he was sent to Danearys in the first place. Illyrio and or Varys sent him there or opened the way for him.

Some theories speculate about how Illyrio wants to bring slavery back to Pentos. Great to have a man like Jorah close to Drogo and Daenarys when they have slaves to sell. Perhaps even hoping to sell Westerosi slaves after Khal Drogo raided Westeros (as he was going to, if he didnt die before that).

Sell either Westerosi slaves to Essos or the other way around, use the closest major city (Pentos) have a guy on the inside with lots of knowledge about slavery (Jorah).

Illyrio, Varys, Jorah, all would profit from this secret arrangement.

[Canon Claude]

3 minutes ago, Gramse said:

Great theory about Jorah, never thought about him as something more than a knight.

This become even more interesting when considering who and why he was sent to Danearys in the first place. Illyrio and or Varys sent him there or opened the way for him.

Some theories speculate about how Illyrio wants to bring slavery back to Pentos. Great to have a man like Jorah close to Drogo and Daenarys when they have slaves to sell. Perhaps even hoping to sell Westerosi slaves after Khal Drogo raided Westeros (as he was going to, if he didnt die before that).

Sell either Westerosi slaves to Essos or the other way around, use the closest major city (Pentos) have a guy on the inside with lots of knowledge about slavery (Jorah).

Illyrio, Varys, Jorah, all would profit from this secret arrangement.

How much richer does Illyrio need to be? And since when has Varys ever been motivated by money? 

[Sigella]

13 hours ago, Walda said:

Jorah has been around the docks of Volantis often enough to know better than to go from ship to ship seeking passage to Meereen, like Quentyn did. 

He knows of the Widow, he knows her influence on the docks, but he doesn't know her. The gloves and the disrespect show that. 

(ASoS Ch 27 Tyrion VIII) whomever it was that told Jorah, they didn't tell him this time around. I notice the innkeep of the Merchant House told Quentyn he would need to rent a hathay if he was seeking passage east from the captains in the harbour, and directed him to the slave-ship Adventure. He didn't mention the Widow that breakfasted each morning in his own inn. Jorah knows, and that is insider knowledge. Of course he hasn't had dealings with her personally before. She doesn't deal in slaves or bankroll slave captains.

She is not charmed by his black looks, any more than his cheap gloves. The sight of Tyrion interested her enough for her to question him. She points out that the slave traders will be offering passage to Meereen for Jorah and his sword soon enough, when Volantis declares war on the Breaker of Chains. Then she asks him directly 

She laughs with disbelief at Jorah's noble answer and reproves him after Tyrion gives his own answer with

So yeah, she knows a slaver when she sees one carting his fettered slave along with him while he tries to win her favor.

It is Tyrion she assists, speaking to him directly after Penny attacks, because Volantis is a dangerous place for dwarfs. She has only scorn for Jorah.

Jorah stays with the ships while Dany and Barry deal with Kraznys. We don't get to see how he interacts with the slavers of Astapor, or their attempts to ingratiate themselves to Dany through him, if any are made. Just as we don't see anyone attempting to ingratiate themselves to Reznak or Daario in order to gain an audience with the Queen, although we know they have.

 

(ASoS Ch 27 Dany III) This is remarkably close to what Jorah foresaw before they arrived in Astapor

(ASoS Ch 8 Dany I)

Jorah adds that, if she isn't given slaves as gifts in exchange for a look at her dragons, he has gone through the trade goods in the holds of the ship and what better use for Illyrio's tiger skins? (Plus he goaded Viserys to his death. No wonder he would rather have 1003 swords at his back the next time he sees Illyrio)

He gives an accurate estimate. Because he knows his trade. 

They don't go into Yunkai (they are at least a league from its walls when they deal with its host), so they don't meet any slave traders there.

Jorah doesn't seem to know Grazdan mo Eraz, but Grazdan knows to treat Dany like a Dothraki Kahl, and buy her off with a chest of gold.

Jorah shows his familiarity with the sellsword captains, though it is ambiguous, not explicit. He might be guessing when he supposes Prendahl has kin in Astapor. Or he might be downplaying his more certain knowledge.

With Mero, it seems to me they know each other much better than than they are letting on. It is as if Mero knew what game they were playing as soon as he saw Jorah. That Mero is really talking to him when he addresses Dany, almost winking at him.

While Barristan has heard of Mero even in Westeros, Jorah knows him as a fighter well enough to know that it would take a knight with the skill of Barristan the Bold to kill him, no mere squire with a stick. 

When they get to Meereen ... one day I am going to post a huge essay-like analysis on Meereen. There is more than one person in Dany's retinue who has worked with the slave traders of Meereen in the past. More than one has traded slaves in the past. But after the 163 masters died in the plaza, and everyone's past sins are forgiven, nobody recognises their old china any more. Not if they want to live.

And Jorah knows the smell of a slaver's galley.(ADwD Ch 40 Tyrion IX)

I stand corrected regarding his relationship with the widow.

Although, one might argue if he had been a slave-trader in Volantis, wouldn't he have had better knowledge of the widow and not gotten the gloves wrong? I have actually wondered about that meeting, why the gloves and why making a deal about bying them on the long bridge? Seems to me there's more there than meets the eye and I'm not certain what.

 

I absolutely agree that Jorah's relationship with/feelings for Dany isn't healthy but I don't know if we should paint him as black as this thread suggests.

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

When it comes to age differences, Daenerys and Drogo appear to be the outlier with happiness. Look at Tyrion and Sansa or Jon Arryn and Lysa Arryn.

The problem with Tyrion and Sansa was not the age, nor was necessarily the problem with Arryn and Lysa even when that was a big factor. 

There are a lots of couples of similar ages that are terrible too, age only becomes an impossible problem when one or the other can't get past it.

 

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I don’t think he is knocking Hoster. It’s like how George puts Sansa through hell over her misplaced love of Joffrey. That’s him punishing the character for what he sees as bad behaviour and poetic justice. Lysa puts herself through that for a man who does not even love her and ends up killing her. Again, he’s pointing the finger at her love and personal failings not at the system. It’s a warning against that behaviour. Had she not defied her father and let emotion compromise her judgement she would not have found herself in that situation. He’s still putting the blame on her, not really on Hoster or father knows best. 

I don't think that's a fair assestment, either for Martin or the show. I see that you're cherry picking to make a point.

Regardless, Martin was not making any point with Hoster, that's why he dies regretting his decision.

Father knows best just as much as he can fuck up and desire is healing fire as much as it is destructive, these are facts of life and these are also tropes that has existed longer than Martin.

I could just as easily pick Jaeharys 1 and say that his approach killed his daughters and Martin is arguing the opposite.

 

[CamiloRP]

55 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

I don't think that's a fair assestment, either for Martin or the show. I see that you're cherry picking to make a point.

 

Regardless, Martin was not making any point with Hoster, that's why he dies regretting his decision.

Father knows best just as much as he can fuck up and desire is healing fire as much as it is destructive, these are facts of life and these are also tropes that has existed longer than Martin.

I could just as easily pick Jaeharys 1 and say that his approach killed his daughters and Martin is arguing the opposite.

Don't mind him, I'm still not sure he has read the books and a few months back he said that George views arranged marriage as 'the correct way'.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Don't mind him, I'm still not sure he has read the books and a few months back he said that George views arranged marriage as 'the correct way'.

'The correct way'... tell that to Jeyne Poole. Tell that to Gregor Clegane's wives.

[Tyrion1991]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

The problem with Tyrion and Sansa was not the age, nor was necessarily the problem with Arryn and Lysa even when that was a big factor. 

There are a lots of couples of similar ages that are terrible too, age only becomes an impossible problem when one or the other can't get past it.

 

I don't think that's a fair assestment, either for Martin or the show. I see that you're cherry picking to make a point.

Regardless, Martin was not making any point with Hoster, that's why he dies regretting his decision.

Father knows best just as much as he can fuck up and desire is healing fire as much as it is destructive, these are facts of life and these are also tropes that has existed longer than Martin.

I could just as easily pick Jaeharys 1 and say that his approach killed his daughters and Martin is arguing the opposite.

 

 

A previous poster picked the point. We’d be here all day if we had to discuss George being a narcissist and every single instance of this. Other stories don’t make this point and they aren’t general tropes at all. You talk about the show, season 8 has Sansa point blank tell Jon love makes you do dumb things. Oh look emotional girl burns down city and goes dictator. Let’s get ice man in charge to set us on the golden path. That’s a bit more than Anna wanting to marry the Prince after one song with him. 

Love and emotion is never depicted as a positive in George’s world. It’s something they might want but never an actually good thing and often that desire is treated with suspicion. It always comes back to a negative and is constantly cited as a cause of war, distress and violence. There is no “healing fire” at all here. That would imply nuance and that George has any interest in that. Whatever character said that is at odds with what he’s actually written. If he was then you would have characters saved by love, you would have people brought together by it and what you get is endless cynical disdain for even the mildest notion. If we’re being metaphysical and talking of the show then ice clearly wins; so there’s that as well. 

 

 

 

[Tyrion1991]

42 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

'The correct way'... tell that to Jeyne Poole. Tell that to Gregor Clegane's wives.

 

Jeyne wasn’t arranged by her parents but by her captors and this was all done by the villains who are themselves creatures of emotion that George has already criticised. So of course if they’ve co-opted the system it’s bad. But when our Starks and Tullys do it and people do their part things work. He’s brutally unsympathetic to Lysa and her child. He’s looking back for excuses to explain why she’s a cartoon villain. 

Gregor is a minor character and George doesn’t spend a lot of time dwelling on this beyond emphasising Gregor is a bad man. George isn’t really using that to open the floor against arranged marriage. 

The issue is that George repeatedly calls into question the ability for any character to be the judge of whether they’re in love without being betrayed in some horrific way. Whilst having one of the few good working relationships we are presented with be a dutiful arranged marriage. That’s the issue. It’s dumb. A bit like in Aliens Prometheus how all the characters keep getting themselves killed and putting their noses where they shouldn’t. Not everyone is such a poor judge of character. Which isn’t just tragedy because he makes love vs duty a talking point and clearly comes out in support of the latter.

[CamiloRP]

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

A previous poster picked the point. We’d be here all day if we had to discuss George being a narcissist and every single instance of this. Other stories don’t make this point and they aren’t general tropes at all. You talk about the show, season 8 has Sansa point blank tell Jon love makes you do dumb things. Oh look emotional girl burns down city and goes dictator. Let’s get ice man in charge to set us on the golden path. That’s a bit more than Anna wanting to marry the Prince after one song with him. 

Love and emotion is never depicted as a positive in George’s world. It’s something they might want but never an actually good thing and often that desire is treated with suspicion. It always comes back to a negative and is constantly cited as a cause of war, distress and violence. There is no “healing fire” at all here. That would imply nuance and that George has any interest in that. Whatever character said that is at odds with what he’s actually written. If he was then you would have characters saved by love, you would have people brought together by it and what you get is endless cynical disdain for even the mildest notion. If we’re being metaphysical and talking of the show then ice clearly wins; so there’s that as well. 

 

 

 

Read The Armageddon Rag, read A Song For Lya, read Dying Of The Light, I won't bother listing all the instances in ASOIAF in which love is clearly a force of good. George is a hopeless romantic, it's really easy to note if you read almost anything he wrote.

[Nathan Stark]

12 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Read The Armageddon Rag, read A Song For Lya, read Dying Of The Light, I won't bother listing all the instances in ASOIAF in which love is clearly a force of good. George is a hopeless romantic, it's really easy to note if you read almost anything he wrote.

Hell, George even describes himself as a hopeless romantic. I don't know where this idea comes from that George views love and emotion as bad and dumb. It's usually protrayed the other way around: vows that make you ignore your basic human emotions, like the NW or KG vows usually cause people to break those vows because they aren't emotionless robots. The good hearted romantics in ASOIAF are never punished for being good hearted romantics, but because they are naive about how their actions still have consequences regardless of intent. The reality is that in ASOIAF, as in the real world, being good and sweet and generous and honorable does not mean you get to avoid consequences for your decisions. The world does not automatically reward people for being pure-hearted heroes. That is a rather common trope of lesser fantasy. GRRM does not want the takeaway from his story to be that being "honorable" is dumb. His point is that we should all try to be as honorable and good as we can anyway, even though there probably isn't going to be any immediate reward for doing that.

Sorry for the rant. One final thing to add is that season 8 of the show is probably not the best example to make about proving George's authorial intent.

[Angel Eyes]

18 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

GRRM does not want the takeaway from his story to be that being "honorable" is dumb. His point is that we should all try to be as honorable and good as we can anyway, even though there probably isn't going to be any immediate reward for doing that.

 

He’s going to need to do a better job at showing that being honorable isn’t dumb, because that’s the main takeaway at this point. Jaime’s trust in Brienne is leading him into a trap laid for Lady Stoneheart for instance.

[Nathan Stark]

31 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

He’s going to need to do a better job at showing that being honorable isn’t dumb, because that’s the main takeaway at this point. Jaime’s trust in Brienne is leading him into a trap laid for Lady Stoneheart for instance.

Nope. The main takeaway at this point is that actions have consequences. Jaime is being deliberately decieved by Brienne, but trusting her and trying to be a better person have nothing to do with being tricked. Being honorable is a choice, but there is really nothing in the books to show that it is dumb.

[Tyrion1991]

7 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Hell, George even describes himself as a hopeless romantic. I don't know where this idea comes from that George views love and emotion as bad and dumb. It's usually protrayed the other way around: vows that make you ignore your basic human emotions, like the NW or KG vows usually cause people to break those vows because they aren't emotionless robots. The good hearted romantics in ASOIAF are never punished for being good hearted romantics, but because they are naive about how their actions still have consequences regardless of intent. The reality is that in ASOIAF, as in the real world, being good and sweet and generous and honorable does not mean you get to avoid consequences for your decisions. The world does not automatically reward people for being pure-hearted heroes. That is a rather common trope of lesser fantasy. GRRM does not want the takeaway from his story to be that being "honorable" is dumb. His point is that we should all try to be as honorable and good as we can anyway, even though there probably isn't going to be any immediate reward for doing that.

Sorry for the rant. One final thing to add is that season 8 of the show is probably not the best example to make about proving George's authorial intent.

 

He has a funny way of showing it then. It’s a common take away from his work that good is dumb.

George praises the Nights Watch and blames human weakness for the institutions problems. He’s being very literal when Aemon tells him that the Greater Good is served by letting go of your selfish desires that are a temptation which leads men astray. Love to George is depicted as something that is a sin. It’s a temptation and people want it but that makes it socially dangerous.

It has nothing to do with lack of knowledge or naivety. Look at Cat. Whenever she does anything that does not directly concern her she is very wise, intelligent perceptive and has a good measure of things. George repeatedly shows her bad decision making as a result of her emotions clouding her judgement. So he’s not actually saying the characters just need the knowledge, experience and judgement to carry their idealism forward. He’s saying that such feelings and temptations are a corrosive force. 

Thats because those authors don’t railroad the characters with absurd situations. Oh yeah I want to plant some trees in a city, let’s have half the world declare war on me, forget the few million freed slaves who like me, make it impossible geographically for people to get to me etc etc. You can’t railroad a character that much and then pontificate on how you’re the only writer who gets it whilst everyone else is being naive. He isn’t presenting natural situations that would play out. At one point George has Dany read about how she wishes people were like those shifty eyes villains in the stories when George has Mirri, Littlefinger and Varys be exactly that trope. He’s a total hypocrite.

 

 

 

[SeanF]

19 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

He has a funny way of showing it then. It’s a common take away from his work that good is dumb.

George praises the Nights Watch and blames human weakness for the institutions problems. He’s being very literal when Aemon tells him that the Greater Good is served by letting go of your selfish desires that are a temptation which leads men astray. Love to George is depicted as something that is a sin. It’s a temptation and people want it but that makes it socially dangerous.

It has nothing to do with lack of knowledge or naivety. Look at Cat. Whenever she does anything that does not directly concern her she is very wise, intelligent perceptive and has a good measure of things. George repeatedly shows her bad decision making as a result of her emotions clouding her judgement. So he’s not actually saying the characters just need the knowledge, experience and judgement to carry their idealism forward. He’s saying that such feelings and temptations are a corrosive force. 

Thats because those authors don’t railroad the characters with absurd situations. Oh yeah I want to plant some trees in a city, let’s have half the world declare war on me, forget the few million freed slaves who like me, make it impossible geographically for people to get to me etc etc. You can’t railroad a character that much and then pontificate on how you’re the only writer who gets it whilst everyone else is being naive. He isn’t presenting natural situations that would play out. At one point George has Dany read about how she wishes people were like those shifty eyes villains in the stories when George has Mirri, Littlefinger and Varys be exactly that trope. He’s a total hypocrite.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what pleasure you actually get out of these books.

I don't think that Martin views love negatively at all.  Love may turn out badly, and loving people may be exploited by cold, inhumane people.  But, cold inhumane people are not to be emulated, and tend to trip themselves up, eventually.  Tywin will not be remembered as the man who was an effective Hand who established a dynasty, but as the man who was shot on the toilet by his dwarf son, and whose legacy fell apart.   People like Roose Bolton and Littlefinger will not be the winners of this tale, nor is Ding & Dong's take the right one.  To them, yes, honour is stupid, Tywin, Cersei, and Littlefinger are people to be emulated, slave drivers are victims, and the Smallfolk are best ruled by people who view them as livestock. But, that's certainly not my reading of this story.

[Tyrion1991]

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'm not sure what pleasure you actually get out of these books.

I don't think that Martin views love negatively at all.  Love may turn out badly, and loving people may be exploited by cold, inhumane people.  But, cold inhumane people are not to be emulated, and tend to trip themselves up, eventually.  Tywin will not be remembered as the man who was an effective Hand who established a dynasty, but as the man who was shot on the toilet by his dwarf son, and whose legacy fell apart.   People like Roose Bolton and Littlefinger will not be the winners of this tale, nor is Ding & Dong's take the right one.  To them, yes, honour is stupid, Tywin, Cersei, and Littlefinger are people to be emulated, slave drivers are victims, and the Smallfolk are best ruled by people who view them as livestock. But, that's certainly not my reading of this story.

 

Because there is no maybe here. It’s almost every case in his story. A balanced approach would have counterpoints and wouldn’t give the NW or KG vows the time of day. 

Tywin, Stannis and Roose are not cold blooded people at all. The bulk of criticism is on their malice, jealousy, pettiness, lust for power and pretentious hubris. To him that’s just another form of losing control and a lack of reason which harms the social good. George doesn’t come out against machine men with machine minds here. He sees that as the solution to human weakness.

The show is a pretty good indicator about the authors intent and where the series is heading. More than we can say for most unfinished book series. The details may be different but the theme and overall destination; he hasn’t come out and said its not his ending. The burden of proof is to say that’s not the ending.

 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It’s a common take away from his work that good is dumb.

I see you there Dark Helmet.

[SeanF]

27 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Because there is no maybe here. It’s almost every case in his story. A balanced approach would have counterpoints and wouldn’t give the NW or KG vows the time of day. 

Tywin, Stannis and Roose are not cold blooded people at all. The bulk of criticism is on their malice, jealousy, pettiness, lust for power and pretentious hubris. To him that’s just another form of losing control and a lack of reason which harms the social good. George doesn’t come out against machine men with machine minds here. He sees that as the solution to human weakness.

The show is a pretty good indicator about the authors intent and where the series is heading. More than we can say for most unfinished book series. The details may be different but the theme and overall destination; he hasn’t come out and said its not his ending. The burden of proof is to say that’s not the ending.

 

 

The show got the books’ characterisation and themes completely wrong.  That’s obvious to book readers.  Remember “themes are for 8th grade book reports”, according to Benioff.

[frenin]

13 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

A previous poster picked the point. We’d be here all day if we had to discuss George being a narcissist and every single instance of this. Other stories don’t make this point and they aren’t general tropes at all.

Other stories do not make the point that love can be dangerous?? Are you serious??

This has been a trope since Lancelot  and Guinivere!!!

 

 

13 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

. You talk about the show, season 8 has Sansa point blank tell Jon love makes you do dumb things. Oh look emotional girl burns down city and goes dictator. Let’s get ice man in charge to set us on the golden path. That’s a bit more than Anna wanting to marry the Prince after one song with him. 

I'm not talking about the show, I'm talking about the books.

The show also had Sansa state that being raped made her tougher? stronger? smarter? I don't even remember what absurd bullshit was. 

 

 

13 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Love and emotion is never depicted as a positive in George’s world. It’s something they might want but never an actually good thing and often that desire is treated with suspicion. 

I don't think that's true,  Jaeharys and Alyssane comes to mind, Joanna and Tywin were also a loving couple,

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

Other stories do not make the point that love can be dangerous?? Are you serious??

This has been a trope since Lancelot  and Guinivere!!!

 

 

I'm not talking about the show, I'm talking about the books.

The show also had Sansa state that being raped made her tougher? stronger? smarter? I don't even remember what absurd bullshit was. 

 

 

I don't think that's true,  Jaeharys and Alyssane comes to mind, Joanna and Tywin were also a loving couple,

Sansa was made stronger by rape;  Ramsay Bolton was a "badass";  Stannis was evil;  Tywin was "lawful neutral";  Cersei was  "a girl in need of a man";  Jaime was a dumb lunk who couldn't get over his love for Cersei;  Arya was a gleeful sadist;  Jon was a moron;  Tyrion was a loveable pacifist;  Dany delivered endless speeches about destiny and fire and blood.  Does anyone think this reflects what we read in the books?

[Walda]

22 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The Volantis Widow has no idea who Jorah actually is or what Dany wants so she’s literally talking out her arse

I disagree. For starters, the Widow of the Waterfront is learning who Jorah is as he speaks to her.  She has sons everywhere, lives in the pub, and her warehouses and docks line the waterfront of Volantis (hence her sobriquet)

 When she says

Quote

“A man can buy most anything on the Long Bridge. Gloves, slaves, monkeys.”

(ADwD Ch 27 Tyrion VIII) she is letting them know she has sons on the south side of the bridge selling monkeys, in the middle selling gloves, and on the north side selling fetters.

Quote

“All the other exiles are sailing west, or so these old ears have heard. And all those captains in my debt are falling over one another to take them there and leach a little gold from the coffers of the Golden Company. Our noble triarchs have pledged a dozen warships to the cause, to see the fleet safely as far as the Stepstones. Even old Doniphos has given his assent. Such a glorious adventure. And yet you would go the other way, ser.”

the widow knows Jorah is a sellsword, and that he was exiled from Westeros.

She speaks the common tongue herself, with only the trace of an accent, though we know she has lived in Volantis among the Volantene pureblood since she was young and lovely, and that she came to Volantis from Yunkai. Was her mother's tongue Westerosi? We know too, that the only people who can overhear their conversation are Westerosi speakers, like Penny.

Quote

“My business is in the east.”

“And what business is that, I wonder? Not slaves,

She knows he is a slaver

Quote

She has closed the fighting pits as well, so it cannot be a taste for blood.

She knows he is a fighter

Quote

this is Volantis, where fetters and chains are cheaper than day-old bread and it is forbidden to help a slave escape.”

“I’m no slave.”

“Every man ever taken by slavers sings that same sad song. I dare not help you … here.”

She knows Jorah has taken Tyrion as a slave

You could point out that anyone could see at a glance that Mormont, in his mail and leather, and his woolen surcoat with a rampant bear upon it, was a knight of Westeros in exile. Anyone who saw his longsword and his stance would know he was a brutal fighter. Anyone who saw the dwarf he pulled in fetters alongside himself would know he was a slaver. One glance would tell anyone as much as the widow reveals about him. That is true.

But what she says hints that she has heard things before she met them.That her son with the short sword and his tattoos cut off, has brothers still enslaved looking out for her. Like, for example the guard of the North gate that saw a knight with a dwarf strapped to his well-lathered warhorse come in on the Selhorys road just as they were closing last night.

She might have laughed at the sally "the old ones know more tricks" overheard by dung-gathering slaves they passed.

Riverboats travel downstream on the tide faster and more directly than horses on the road, and the Widow has business with many captains who travel up and down the river. It would not take too long for a river-boat pilot to tell how Qavo the customs officer had played Cyvasse with a dwarf from the Shy Maid going down with hides and honey, ale and tallow. The shining eyes of the previously bored old sex-slaves when Tyrion rolled down the stairs and was captured by Jorah, is a surety that they would be telling the story to anyone wanting to hear it. 

The Widow has sons that drive hathays (like the one the innkeeps 'cousin' loaned to Quentyn). She had sons whose worship of R'hllor had been interrupted in the middle of Benerro's sermon by that Westerosi slaver pushing a path through the worshippers like the godless outlander he was. One had sought to stop him, but Jorah drew his sword so fast, and he wanted no bloodshed to disturb their prayers.

The slave with the horsehead on his cheek could tell her how much the horse and saddle were bought and sold for - and she would know, as Tyrion did, that Jorah really was looking for a ship. The ironsmith could have told how he attached the fetters after hours.The cutpurse urchin could tell her how he got his blood nose.

 The Widow would know that the skinflint knight passed by her jeweled tiara to the leathermakers, where he haggled down those gloves, saving his silver for himself. . 

Quote

“Gloves for my poor old wrinkled hands. How nice.”

She would hear of how cruelly the Bear knight had yanked his little slave along, until they arrived at the inn where she could see them herself. 

She might not have heard all these details at once, or from the one source, but the inn was rocking that night, and with her home-town advantage, it's a fair bet she knew more about what Jorah did last night than he did himself, and had heard the whole tale by the time she had finished her breakfast

The recent history of Jorah and Tyrion would not be all or even the most important of the things she had heard last night. She was bankrolling captains and

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Some exiled lord has hired the Golden Company to win back his lands for him. Half the captains in Volantis are racing upriver to Volon Therys to offer him their ships.

If she didn't already, she would want to know about Griff. Locally, she would know the names of the men Tyrion heard duelling last night, and which one died, and how, and why.

Her circle is not just slaves and traders, she still knows people inside the black wall of Volantis

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Our noble triarchs have pledged a dozen warships to the cause, to see the fleet safely as far as the Stepstones. Even old Doniphos

Living on the docks between the river and the sea, the Widow receives information from other places too - Qarth, Westeros, Tolos, Yunkai ... and when Greenguts and Dornish Gerrold and Frog set off, whose captain gave the Windblown passage? With whom could they warehouse their niello plate armour and golden dragons, who gets the bailee copy of the duplicate receipt signed with their real names?

There are so many interesting things about the widow.

Like the gifts she has received that morning

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a silver goblet, an ornate fan carved of jade leaves so thin they were translucent, and an ancient bronze dagger marked with runes.

The fan suggests Qarth to me. Penny claims "the streets are paved with jade", and if this is not exactly true, there are at least jade fakes on the bronze snake arch (ACoK Ch 27 Daenerys II), and on the miniature knights that Xaro gave her, on one of the chairs of the Pureborn, and the crown the Tourmaline Brotherhood gave her. 

Was the widow given her fan by a representative of the Pureborn? Or the Guild of Spicers? Or the Tourmaline Brotherhood? Or perhaps she was visited by Xaro Xoan Daxos of the Thirteen (whose nose has jade flakes encrusting it).

Silver goblets are associated with Starks. King Robert and Joffrey have jeweled goblets, Mace Tyrell has a gold one, Xaro has a matched pair in gold and jade. Most goblets are unspecified.

There are silver cups in Renly's green silk pavilion. Lord Hewett, Tyrell bannerman, also has a silver cup

But Eddard Stark drinks from a silver goblet with the life-like head of a silver direwolf raised on its side, at the welcoming feast for King Robert at Winterfell. Bran drinks from the same goblet at the harvest feast, and fArya toys with it at her wedding. Catelyn toys with her own silver goblet at Riverrun after she interrogated Cleos Frey.

The only non-Stark silver goblets in the book are this one, and the pair brought out for wine with Eddard Stark by Tobho Motte, the Qohorik armorer who employed Gendry and knew the spells that could forge Valyrian steel anew.

I remember seeing a bronze dagger like that

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Mirri Maz Duur chanted words in a tongue that Dany did not know, and a knife appeared in her hand. Dany never saw where it came from. It looked old; hammered red bronze, leaf-shaped, its blade covered with ancient glyphs. The maegi drew it across the stallion’s throat,

(AGoT Ch 64 Daenerys VIII)

Dany also saw bronze daggers for sale along the waterfront bazaar at Qarth.

Lord Jeor Mormont says

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“The children of the forest are all dead,” said Mormont. “The First Men killed half of them with bronze blades, and the Andals finished the job with iron.

( ASoS Ch 33 Samwell II)

Ygritte's knife might be made of bronze

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Three quick strides, and she yanked the old man’s head back by the hair and opened his throat from ear to ear. Even in death, the man did not cry out. “You know nothing, Jon Snow!” she shouted at him, and flung the bloody blade at his feet.

(ASoS Ch 41 Jon V) Or of stolen steel or iron. After all, she is no Thenn.

Bran saw a larger bronze blade in Winterfell's past

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a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

(ADwD Ch 34 Bran III)

At the Kingsmoot, Erik Anvilbreaker and the Drumm opened chests with gifts of bronze that might have Included daggers.

Non-dagger bronze things with runes include the Crown of Winter and Bronze Yohn's armor.  The unsullied have bronze name discs with Valyrian glyphs, on their sword hilts.

On daggers or not, the runes might constitute a magic spell, although maybe it takes blood, or a life, to activate the magic.

It is unlikely that the Widow of the Waterfront is being approached by Thenns, Wildlings, or First Men. So I guess one of her first three visitors was an Ironborn pirate, or a plundering Dothraki, or a maege from the hinterlands of Slaver's Bay.

My best guess would be an Ironborn Pirate, based on the man with the splotchy purple beard, talking to his friend in the common tongue. (While Tyrion knew enough Tyroshi to summon an ale, call a man a cheat, and curse the Gods, he has some difficulty understanding things like monkeys and dwarf fights in any Valyrian dialect - see for example when the innkeep and the widow exchange words about Penny. Remember, he had been practicing his Volantene. Yet he overheard this man's exchange with effortless and perfect comprehension.)

I'm thinking the "Tyroshi" might be one of the crew with green and purple beards that Brienne had spotted drinking at the Stinking Goose. 

Probably part of the same lot that was rumbled by Lady of the Tower outside of Oldtown a fortnight before the Cinnamon Wind reached Oldtown. (The Oldtowners not suspecting there was more than one ship)

One of his crew mates might have been the Tyroshi that presented Cersei with the head of her Valonqar. We know the juggler murdered at the Temple of Trios really was Tyroshi. But his murderer/s, who knows? Stuffing his body into the mouths of Trios seems disrespectful to the God of Tyrosh.

Daario has died his beard purple and gone to the Lhazarene hills, but his beard is more likely to be oiled than splotchy. His swagger and finery and his novelty-handled arakh and stiletto are not mentioned. Plus, Daario would be speaking Tyroshi.

Euron, with his eye-patch/red eye, his blue lips, his black hair, and disruptive tendancies, is nowhere to be seen.

Given the surprising number of Westerosi speakers in earshot, the conversation between Tyrion and Jorah gets very indiscreet

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“I’ll gladly hire you as well, ser. My father’s seat is mine by rights. Swear me your sword, and once I win it back I’ll drown you in gold.”

“I saw a man drowned in gold once. It was not a pretty sight. If you ever get my sword, it will be through your bowels.”

So even if she started with little knowledge of Jorah (which I doubt), she knew him better when they parted company. 

Her potential influence is not lost on Tyrion. He doesn't order her to do stuff for money, he doesn't give her bs answers, he makes her smile, he listens and he hears what she is putting down. He flatters her with his hypothetical vote. He shows compassion for Penny. He smiles, he says thankyou when Jorah says "Qarth is not our destination."

Tyrion knows the widow is able to tell the crew of the Shy Maid of his fate. Jorah is as ignorant of the widow in the end as he was in the beginning. He probably thinks she is talking out of her arse.

But we know the Golden Company is heading west. That Tyrion is not the only dwarf trying to escape Cersei. That the Triarchs of Volantis did drop off their part of the Golden Company in the Stepstones. Dany has banned slave trading, and closed Meereen's famous fighting pits.

The Widow has heard from a Yunkai'i source about Hazzea and Missandei and Irri and Daario. She knows Tolos and New Ghis and Qarth have allied with Yunkai against Dany. She knows Belicho will win the election and her captains will be sailing Volantene troops east.She knows Benerro has forseen that the Selaesori Qhoran won't make it to Qarth, and will get them to Slaver's bay. 

She knows Dany exiled Lord Jorah, and Tyrion is his gift to her. Or rather, he hopes will be his ticket of admission.

For a couple of there things, we will have to wait for Winds, but most of this is confirmed in the books. So it is proof the widow isn't talking out of her butt.