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Alyn Oakenfist

Jorah's story reeks of BS, or why he's even worse than we thought.

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28 minutes ago, lrresistable said:

Besides Flowers, this is a bit of a stretch. Hightower was Aerys Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and did jack shit for Rickard & Brandon when they died horrifically. Got cut down later by Ned at ToJ, but there wasn't much productive Hightower - Stark talking going down there if almost everyone died. 

It's precisely because Hightower was cut down in Dorne instead of the Trident or King's Landing that he is important. You don't think his family wondered WTF the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and the guy who should have led the troops to war with Rhaegar was doing so far away from the king or the prince? The guy isn't a novice at war, but he dies at some tower in the desert instead. Pretty sure  Oswell Whent's family wondered the same thing. 

28 minutes ago, lrresistable said:

Lynesse being given over to Mormont made no sense at all. Unless it has something to do with the glass candles and rumours of Lleyton Hightower practicing sorcery. 

Jeor Mormont was named Lord Commander of the NW the year before the Greyjoy Rebellion.

Satin is specifically from Oldtown. Just sayin'.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It's not like Westeros is horribly mysoginistic and ready to assume the worst of women, as evidenced by the number of Targaryen "witches".

Also it's not like hearsay is piss poor proof/evidence.

It is part of a picture created by GRRM, take it as you like. I cannot see much base for making an angel out of Lynesse.

The original post is not dripping with evidence either btw

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3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It's precisely because Hightower was cut down in Dorne instead of the Trident or King's Landing that he is important. 

Jeor Mormont was named Lord Commander of the NW the year before the Greyjoy Rebellion.

Satin is specifically from Oldtown. Just sayin'.

How is this important? He's the guy guarding what Rhaegar told him to guard. You reckon he told his family about the heir at the ToJ?

It's entirely possible for them to reasonably infer this without Gerold explicitly telling them that, though, true.

 

7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Jeor Mormont was named Lord Commander of the NW the year before the Greyjoy Rebellion.

This is another stretch if you're suggesting the Hightowers are trying to get close to Jon / the Starks. Bear Island has virtually no closeness or special ties to the Starks, and the Lord Commander rarely, if ever leaves The Wall. And the Starks rarely travel up to The Wall. I don't think Hightower could have foreseen Jon signing his life away to The Watch either.

 

Unless you're suggesting the Hightowers knew or suspected the Other's were coming back? If that was the case though you'd think they'd send a shit ton of fighting men up there to aid The Watch.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Satin is specifically from Oldtown. Just sayin'.

What are you getting at here? Satin is a spy because he was from Oldtown? Does he have access to Aemon's rookery to send ravens?

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19 minutes ago, broken one said:

The original post is not dripping with evidence either btw

No, because there is no evidence either way, I was just pointing out the holes in Jorah's story that indicate there is something much darker at play, and theorizing what that might be exactly.

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13 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

She could have taken a ship home, but she didn't. She chose to be the concubine of some merchant prince rather than return home.

Quote

We fled to Lys, where I sold my ship for gold to keep us.

(ACoK Ch 12 Daenerys I)

In this chapter, Jorah explains

Quote

While I was fighting Braavosi on the Rhoyne, Lynesse moved into the manse of a merchant prince named Tregar Ormollen. They say she is his chief concubine now,

he makes it seem that he has amply provided for her, which creates the impression that Lynesse was a gold digger who moved on by her own free will and volition to a wealthier mark while he was working hard to get the money to support her. 

This is intended to, and does, leave Dany with the impression that "she had ruined him, and abandoned him"(ASoS Ch 8 Daenerys I)

When he tells the tale to Tyrion, he puts in some financial points that would spoil the version he told Dany

Quote

for every silver I earned my wife spent ten. By the time I got back to Lys, she had taken a lover, who told me cheerfully that I would be enslaved for debt unless I gave her up and left the city. That was how I came to Volantis … one step ahead of slavery, owning nothing but my sword and the clothes upon my back.

(ADwD Ch 27 Tyrion VII)

In this version, it is clear that Lynesse is left with debts that she has no means of paying, that she can be taken into slavery for. That if Tregar was not one of Jorah's creditors, he was the person that was willing to purchase Jorah's debts to prevent Lynesse being imprisoned for them. That Lynesse moved into Tregar's manse (with his wife and concubines, awkward) implies her landlord had evicted her by the time she applied to him for assistance.

By buying up Jorah's debt, Tregar could hold both Jorah and his wife as slaves. If the debts had been incurred by Lynesse in her own name, this would not be the case. So the debt must be for some ongoing expense Jorah signed for -most likely either the rent of his manse, or a line of credit he intended to recoup with his plunder battling the Braavosi on the Rhoyne (although why would he suppose the Bravoosi would carry their wealth into battle with them? I guess, because they were homeless sellswords, who carried their wealth with them. Still, if you are looking for plunder, it is better to be on the invading side. Lesson learnt, I guess.) If  Jorah had returned with enough money to pay the debt he incurred before he left, he would be free, and could free his wife.

She might not even have become Tregar's concubine until her husband decided to walk away with a clean slate rather than pay for their freedom. When we are aware that debt was a factor, we become aware that her choices might have been starker than Jorah chose to acknowledge. 

When Jorah tells the tale to Dany, it is a story about how he lost it all, ending with his wife's bitter betrayal. A woman that is dead to him, that looks just like her.

When he tells Tyrion the tale, leaving Lynesse is the starting point that brought him to Volantis with nothing but the sword on his back. It is a story of a self-made man's rise to glory.

The implication is that he and Volantis have history, that he got his hustle on here, and now he is on the cusp of his biggest hustle yet, the one that will deliver the stratospheric wealth that would take him to the top of the biz and make him the number one target of every gold digger in Essos. 

And what is 'the biz' in Volantis? It is slavery.

And where is he at right now? At the docks, in possession of the dwarf that killed the King on the Iron Throne, on the eve of the election of the Tigers that want War, about to sail to Meereen to seek an audience with the biggest problem Volantis and the biz has right now - the so-called breaker of chains that is stirring up their slaves and the Red God's devotees.

It suits him for Dany to think he does what he does for the love of her. It suits him for Tyrion to think he does what he does for the love of her.

But he resents the little fool. He gave her that army, he gave her Meereen. He intends to use the dwarf he enslaved to lure her in, and bring her back to Volantis in chains.

Edited by Walda

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I really like this discussion. I don't have much to add, though. Except to say that Jorah belongs on the Wall.

I do believe his story about his failed marriage, and what that ultimately led to. And I believe he did begin his relationship with Dany by spying and informing on her. And he is responsible for every thing he has ever done.

But I do believe he loves Dany, and would die for her (no, I am not denying his sexual desire for her).

And so I believe he will ultimately be judged by Dany or sent to the Wall (or both).

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15 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

. I think she stayed away from Oldtown because she fucked up.

Yeah, that's why I think she was married off by her father and Tywin. The low opinions of her on the docks of Oldtown I suspect have to do with her being a concubine in Lys, and rumours of her own youthful indescretions, not Jorah's calumnies.

She was obviously very unhappy in her marriage and her in-laws didn't think much of her - but they didn't think she was a hoe.

I also think that her father and Tywin might have known she was sterile. When Catelyn tries to comfort her with the notion that she would feel more like she belonged to the North when she had Northern children, it didn't work. Lynesse didn't have a child with Jorah, who mentions the miscarriages of his half-forgotten Glover wife, but no such troubles with Lynesse. Her unsuitability as a brood mare seems to be the sorce of Maege's scorn, and the lack of a heir might have been part of Jeor's despair, too. 

The man who married Lynesse would have no heirs of the body, and lords nearer to Oldtown than Jorah might have heard that rumoured and looked elsewhere. Tywin wanted to place her with a lord he did not want to prosper. Leyton wanted her respectfully married somewhere out of the way of any society she could scandalise.

ETA: @Irresistable, Satin was a whore in Oldtown. He would hear the town's talk in the tavern, and have intimate knowledge of a number of Archmaesters, septons and Lords like Hother Umber, who would not acknowledge his acquaintance if they met in the street.

Also, while the 'squire with a stick' point was justified, if Jorah was obsessed with love for Daenerys or even taking his position as Lord Commander of her King's Guard seriously, the fact that his princess had nearly been assassinated again might have given him more cause for immediate concern than the fact that Arstan's staff had saved her again. It seems odd that his first order of business is to expose this imposter and get him away from his queen.

Edited by Walda

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5 hours ago, lrresistable said:

Was she?

She wouldn't have given him her favour otherwise, nor Hightower would have married her to Jorah.

 

5 hours ago, lrresistable said:

Was he? What new powers are we talking about here?

He was. Ned and Robert are clearly the new powers in Westeros for obvious reason, he was one of Ned's main bannermen and Robert himself had knighted him.

 

5 hours ago, lrresistable said:

All things being considered, Hightower is the most prestigious House that isn't a Great House. There's just about a thousand other powerful lordlings who would jump at the chance to marry a pretty girl like her.

You're too sure, yet Jorah was one of them.

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4 hours ago, Travis said:

I really like this discussion. I don't have much to add, though. Except to say that Jorah belongs on the Wall.

I do believe his story about his failed marriage, and what that ultimately led to. And I believe he did begin his relationship with Dany by spying and informing on her. And he is responsible for every thing he has ever done.

But I do believe he loves Dany, and would die for her (no, I am not denying his sexual desire for her).

And so I believe he will ultimately be judged by Dany or sent to the Wall (or both).

this exactly.

I think he will fulfill his fathers last wish (unless GRRM kills him).

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Jorah seems to be friendly with the widow of the waterfront, so him having a grand history slavetrading in Volantis doesn’t hold.

 

Same could be said of the entirety of slavers bay - none of the slavers pays Jorah any mind/respect or try to engrationate themselves to Dany through him. 

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5 hours ago, Sigella said:

Jorah seems to be friendly with the widow of the waterfront, so him having a grand history slavetrading in Volantis doesn’t hold 

Jorah has been around the docks of Volantis often enough to know better than to go from ship to ship seeking passage to Meereen, like Quentyn did. 

He knows of the Widow, he knows her influence on the docks, but he doesn't know her. The gloves and the disrespect show that. 

Quote

Seek the widow of the waterfront, someone told you, but they should have also warned you, beware the widow’s sons "

(ASoS Ch 27 Tyrion VIII) whomever it was that told Jorah, they didn't tell him this time around. I notice the innkeep of the Merchant House told Quentyn he would need to rent a hathay if he was seeking passage east from the captains in the harbour, and directed him to the slave-ship Adventure. He didn't mention the Widow that breakfasted each morning in his own inn. Jorah knows, and that is insider knowledge. Of course he hasn't had dealings with her personally before. She doesn't deal in slaves or bankroll slave captains.

She is not charmed by his black looks, any more than his cheap gloves. The sight of Tyrion interested her enough for her to question him. She points out that the slave traders will be offering passage to Meereen for Jorah and his sword soon enough, when Volantis declares war on the Breaker of Chains. Then she asks him directly 

Quote

"Why would you seek Daenerys Targaryen, whom half the world wants dead?”

She laughs with disbelief at Jorah's noble answer and reproves him after Tyrion gives his own answer with

Quote

“This one at least is honest,” she announced, “but you, ser … I have known a dozen Westerosi knights and a thousand adventurers of the same ilk, but none so pure as you would paint yourself. Men are beasts, selfish and brutal. However gentle the words, there are always darker motives underneath. I do not trust you, ser.” She flicked them off with her fan, as if they were no more than flies buzzing about her head. “If you want to get to Meereen, swim. I have no help to give you.”

So yeah, she knows a slaver when she sees one carting his fettered slave along with him while he tries to win her favor.

It is Tyrion she assists, speaking to him directly after Penny attacks, because Volantis is a dangerous place for dwarfs. She has only scorn for Jorah.

5 hours ago, Sigella said:

none of the slavers pays Jorah any mind/respect or try to engrationate themselves to Dany through him. 

Jorah stays with the ships while Dany and Barry deal with Kraznys. We don't get to see how he interacts with the slavers of Astapor, or their attempts to ingratiate themselves to Dany through him, if any are made. Just as we don't see anyone attempting to ingratiate themselves to Reznak or Daario in order to gain an audience with the Queen, although we know they have.

 

Quote

Are you having gold and trading goods sufficient to be paying for all these eunuchs you are wanting?”


“You know the answer to that better than I, Good Master,” Dany replied. “Your men have gone through my ships and tallied every bead of amber and jar of saffron. How much do I have?”


“Sufficient to be buying one of thousands,” the Good Master said, with a contemptuous smile.

(ASoS Ch 27 Dany III) This is remarkably close to what Jorah foresaw before they arrived in Astapor

Quote

"when you break bread with Magister Illyrio, you will have a thousand swords behind you, not just four.”

(ASoS Ch 8 Dany I)

Jorah adds that, if she isn't given slaves as gifts in exchange for a look at her dragons, he has gone through the trade goods in the holds of the ship and what better use for Illyrio's tiger skins? (Plus he goaded Viserys to his death. No wonder he would rather have 1003 swords at his back the next time he sees Illyrio)

He gives an accurate estimate. Because he knows his trade. 

They don't go into Yunkai (they are at least a league from its walls when they deal with its host), so they don't meet any slave traders there.

Jorah doesn't seem to know Grazdan mo Eraz, but Grazdan knows to treat Dany like a Dothraki Kahl, and buy her off with a chest of gold.

Jorah shows his familiarity with the sellsword captains, though it is ambiguous, not explicit. He might be guessing when he supposes Prendahl has kin in Astapor. Or he might be downplaying his more certain knowledge.

With Mero, it seems to me they know each other much better than than they are letting on. It is as if Mero knew what game they were playing as soon as he saw Jorah. That Mero is really talking to him when he addresses Dany, almost winking at him.

While Barristan has heard of Mero even in Westeros, Jorah knows him as a fighter well enough to know that it would take a knight with the skill of Barristan the Bold to kill him, no mere squire with a stick. 

When they get to Meereen ... one day I am going to post a huge essay-like analysis on Meereen. There is more than one person in Dany's retinue who has worked with the slave traders of Meereen in the past. More than one has traded slaves in the past. But after the 163 masters died in the plaza, and everyone's past sins are forgiven, nobody recognises their old china any more. Not if they want to live.

And Jorah knows the smell of a slaver's galley.(ADwD Ch 40 Tyrion IX)

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20 hours ago, Walda said:

But he resents the little fool. He gave her that army, he gave her Meereen. He intends to use the dwarf he enslaved to lure her in, and bring her back to Volantis in chains.

HOOO.Boy!  Did not see that coming.  What a creepy candy-coated bastard.

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OP

I dont think that could be the case. The satire George is making is of the fairy tale ending of love at first sight triumphing and happy endings. Whereas here he presents it as socially dangerous and the principal cause of misery. Love is the death of duty and all that. So it has to be a fairy tale love story in order for his satire to work. Adding the caveat that “oh if it was true love it would have worked”  and Jorah was a creep would undermine the moral message entirely. So they kind of have to have been in love and had that fairy tale story because that’s what he’s criticising. 

Also, it foreshadows one way Jorahs story could go with him dishonouring himself trying to please a woman out of love; Dany. Who has a very different set of needs and they involve killing a lot of people. The first thing Dany asks him to do is burn an old woman and it’s brought up at the exile that he is killing a fair few people for her already. So again, that’s the point George is making that love is a socially dangerous thing and that Jorah should return to the Watch and North etc etc. Not to second guess his love for Dany and Danys belief that he does indeed love her. I mean Dany voices this belief long before he does and is written by George as being stunned by the depth of that affection on several occasions. We’re frankly beaten over the head with how much she wants him around and that she loves him as Brother. If George wanted the villain from Megamind he’s got a strange way of doing it. Sansa does not think or say those things about Littlefinger.

Plus the Hightower’s would not have agreed to this unless Lynesse had wanted it. Why give Jorah the time of day? I really do think it would be a Frozen style situation with Anna asking to be married only her father said yes. He really can’t have groomed her because they literally just met at the Tourney.

George is very critical of Jorah but not for those reasons. He had no problem describing Drogo and Dany as a true love story despite age differences. The criticism is that love is a socially destructive thing that turns the individual against society. His love for Dany will, like his affection for Lynesse, lead him to a path of ruin. I think, George RR Martin is an older guy and is perhaps not as tuned in to how readers might hone in on the age gap and the dynamic between a male and female character. There was that very questionable scene he wrote for Arya in Winds and he very sympathetically writes about Barristans love for Ashara or Nettles affair with that older Targaryen. Dany doesn’t bring up his age that often with far more to say on him being ugly, lowborn and overstepping himself and you could write Jorah as an 18 year old without changing the important elements of the character and the main thematic points. I really do think this is a Darkstar “Iam the Night” moment were George thought the age gap was just adding to the gulf between the two ever reciprocating their love and not the singular talking point of his character.

As an aside the Volantis Widow and Tyrion are wrong because we have Danys POV where we see that she wishes Jorah was there and misses him. He’s being told “she’s gonna kill you” repeatedly whilst Dany is wishing he was there to catch her when she trips over. The Volantis Widow has no idea who Jorah actually is or what Dany wants so she’s literally talking out her arse. To quote Blackadder this is “the wise woman” situation. She’s simply another character like Tyrion, Brown Ben and his clerk who are sniping at the foolishness of Jorah going on his trip. She actually doesn’t believe that’s what he’s doing when he tells her he wants to save her. But again, that’s what George is criticising so he has to genuinely love Dany. 

 

Edited by Tyrion1991

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On 2/20/2021 at 11:13 PM, CamiloRP said:

that could be if one GD=2 pounds, nut, in The Hedge Knight, Dunk sells a horse for less than 4 GD, so a GD is worth much more than 2 pounds, if a horse is about 400 pounds, then 1 GD=100 pounds, which means that Anguy spent one million pounds in a few weeks of drinking, specially given he wasn't already rich. 

James Harden has been seen more than once spending one million dollars in a single night. In strip clubs, that is.

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1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

OP

I dont think that could be the case. The satire George is making is of the fairy tale ending of love at first sight triumphing and happy endings. Whereas here he presents it as socially dangerous and the principal cause of misery. Love is the death of duty and all that. So it has to be a fairy tale love story in order for his satire to work. Adding the caveat that “oh if it was true love it would have worked”  and Jorah was a creep would undermine the moral message entirely. So they kind of have to have been in love and had that fairy tale story because that’s what he’s criticising. 

Also, it foreshadows one way Jorahs story could go with him dishonouring himself trying to please a woman out of love; Dany. Who has a very different set of needs and they involve killing a lot of people. The first thing Dany asks him to do is burn an old woman and it’s brought up at the exile that he is killing a fair few people for her already. So again, that’s the point George is making that love is a socially dangerous thing and that Jorah should return to the Watch and North etc etc. Not to second guess his love for Dany and Danys belief that he does indeed love her. I mean Dany voices this belief long before he does and is written by George as being stunned by the depth of that affection on several occasions. We’re frankly beaten over the head with how much she wants him around and that she loves him as Brother. If George wanted the villain from Megamind he’s got a strange way of doing it. Sansa does not think or say those things about Littlefinger.

Plus the Hightower’s would not have agreed to this unless Lynesse had wanted it. Why give Jorah the time of day? I really do think it would be a Frozen style situation with Anna asking to be married only her father said yes. He really can’t have groomed her because they literally just met at the Tourney.

George is very critical of Jorah but not for those reasons. He had no problem describing Drogo and Dany as a true love story despite age differences. The criticism is that love is a socially destructive thing that turns the individual against society. His love for Dany will, like his affection for Lynesse, lead him to a path of ruin. I think, George RR Martin is an older guy and is perhaps not as tuned in to how readers might hone in on the age gap and the dynamic between a male and female character. There was that very questionable scene he wrote for Arya in Winds and he very sympathetically writes about Barristans love for Ashara or Nettles affair with that older Targaryen. Dany doesn’t bring up his age that often with far more to say on him being ugly, lowborn and overstepping himself and you could write Jorah as an 18 year old without changing the important elements of the character and the main thematic points. I really do think this is a Darkstar “Iam the Night” moment were George thought the age gap was just adding to the gulf between the two ever reciprocating their love and not the singular talking point of his character.

As an aside the Volantis Widow and Tyrion are wrong because we have Danys POV where we see that she wishes Jorah was there and misses him. He’s being told “she’s gonna kill you” repeatedly whilst Dany is wishing he was there to catch her when she trips over. The Volantis Widow has no idea who Jorah actually is or what Dany wants so she’s literally talking out her arse. To quote Blackadder this is “the wise woman” situation. She’s simply another character like Tyrion, Brown Ben and his clerk who are sniping at the foolishness of Jorah going on his trip. She actually doesn’t believe that’s what he’s doing when he tells her he wants to save her. But again, that’s what George is criticising so he has to genuinely love Dany. 

 

So GRRM agrees with Tywin about how love is worthless?

 

When it comes to age differences, Daenerys and Drogo appear to be the outlier with happiness. Look at Tyrion and Sansa or Jon Arryn and Lysa Arryn.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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20 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So GRRM agrees with Tywin about how love is worthless?

 

When it comes to age differences, Daenerys and Drogo appear to be the outlier with happiness. Look at Tyrion and Sansa or Jon Arryn and Lysa Arryn.

 

Worse, he depicts love as a destructive and selfish emotion that is to the detriment of wider society. It’s far more than just saying it has no utility. He’s saying it’s dangerous and self destructive. 

Which implies George is okay with age differences if the pair genuinely love each other. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Which implies George is okay with age differences if the pair genuinely love each other. 

 

Well, there's less of a chance that a pair loves each other if they're far apart in age; each person in the pairing has different emotional needs that the other cannot fulfill. Lysa wanted a warm, loving relationship that Jon was unable or unwilling to provide.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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30 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, there's less of a chance that a pair loves each other if they're far apart in age; each person in the pairing has different emotional needs that the other cannot fulfill. Lysa wanted a warm, loving relationship that Jon was unable or unwilling to provide.

 

George tells us that she wanted Littlefinger and that her defiance of her fathers will led her to ruin and madness. With her misplaced love and desire for Littlefinger ultimately leading her to murder her husband, drag the realm into civil war only for her to be murdered by Littlefinger who turned out was just using her. This is contrasted sharply and consciously to Catylyn who did not follow her passions, obeyed her father and found “love” through the family she had with this dour and miserable stranger; her duty.

George is not a subtle man here, he’s very clearly telling us who the good daughter is. George is placing the fault on wilfully seeking love and an awfully optimistic view that father knows best. So the focus isn’t on Jon Arryn and her loveless marriage but her unreasonable and impulsive desire to be with Littlefinger. Again, George is depicting those emotions as poisonous, socially destructive and in this case foolishly wrong. The insinuation is that had she been like Cat she would have set aside her own base selfish desires and done what society demanded of her; which would have literally spared the realm of war and desolation. 

I think it all comes to this love vs duty dynamic that George has in the story. He is laying the blame on emotion and selfishness, not the system.

 

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9 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

George tells us that she wanted Littlefinger and that her defiance of her fathers will led her to ruin and madness. With her misplaced love and desire for Littlefinger ultimately leading her to murder her husband, drag the realm into civil war only for her to be murdered by Littlefinger who turned out was just using her. This is contrasted sharply and consciously to Catylyn who did not follow her passions, obeyed her father and found “love” through the family she had with this dour and miserable stranger; her duty.

George is not a subtle man here, he’s very clearly telling us who the good daughter is. George is placing the fault on wilfully seeking love and an awfully optimistic view that father knows best. So the focus isn’t on Jon Arryn and her loveless marriage but her unreasonable and impulsive desire to be with Littlefinger. Again, George is depicting those emotions as poisonous, socially destructive and in this case foolishly wrong. The insinuation is that had she been like Cat she would have set aside her own base selfish desires and done what society demanded of her; which would have literally spared the realm of war and desolation. 

I think it all comes to this love vs duty dynamic that George has in the story. He is laying the blame on emotion and selfishness, not the system.

 

Well Catelyn falls into the same trap with her maternal love, as Littlefinger uses her maternal feelings to dupe her into “arresting” Tyrion, kicking off a war. Plus freeing Jaime for a chance to see her daughters again. 

On the other hand with Hoster’s daughters, father knows best screwed Lysa over completely since the moon tea nearly killed her and possibly screwed her up physically and emotionally. Imagine if the moon tea did kill Lysa...

So to GRRM, we should act like robots and not care if we’re cared about outside of familial love? Gee, thanks George.

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Just now, Angel Eyes said:

Well Catelyn falls into the same trap with her maternal love, as Littlefinger uses her maternal feelings to dupe her into “arresting” Tyrion, kicking off a war. Plus freeing Jaime for a chance to see her daughters again. 

On the other hand with Hoster’s daughters, father knows best screwed Lysa over completely since the moon tea nearly killed her and possibly screwed her up physically and emotionally. Imagine if the moon tea did kill Lysa...

So to GRRM, we should act like robots and not care if we’re cared about outside of familial love? Gee, thanks George.

 

Her maternal feelings became socially dangerous when they interfere with her judgement. George praises the dutiful elements of her behaviour but condemns anything approaching emotion. His ideal Catelyn would only think of duty and have stayed in her lane. He wants people to be like robots and that those feelings aren’t useful or have a positive impact in society.

I don’t think he is knocking Hoster. It’s like how George puts Sansa through hell over her misplaced love of Joffrey. That’s him punishing the character for what he sees as bad behaviour and poetic justice. Lysa puts herself through that for a man who does not even love her and ends up killing her. Again, he’s pointing the finger at her love and personal failings not at the system. It’s a warning against that behaviour. Had she not defied her father and let emotion compromise her judgement she would not have found herself in that situation. He’s still putting the blame on her, not really on Hoster or father knows best. 

 

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