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Alyn Oakenfist

Jorah's story reeks of BS, or why he's even worse than we thought.

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@Walda

You’ve put more thought into the character than George did. It’s just like Marwyn, another one of those smartarse smug Chaotic good know it all characters that come out of nowhere and wax lyrical about utter nonsense. Marwyn is much worse BTW and far more obnoxious.

If she knew it was Jorah why would she send him back to Dany? We know Danys conflicted over this but so far as the world is concerned he was sentenced to death and sent on his way. Why would the Widow be party to that and what’s to be gained by not talking plainly about how she knows who he is? She just randomly decides to include Jorah in her own plans despite seconds earlier accusing him of conspiring to kill her. But yeah I don’t think she had any clue who he was and certainly had no prophetic insight into his character that Dany or Tyrion would have failed to pick up on. Why should i second guess two POV over one throw away characters three second assessment?

She basically implies Jorah wants to kill Dany and dismisses entirely his motivation for wanting to save Dany. Which doesn’t square with his actions or behaviour in ADWD at all. If he was a mercenary he would sell TYrion to Cersei. Of course, he’s a bastard to everyone else, but that has no bearing on his intent.  

At the end of the day he asks for a boat trip, not a moral lecture. Then he says the idealistic response and she doesn’t believe him because reasons. It’s a random scene only meant to remind us Tyrion exists and let us know Tyrion’s super smart with people. It’s like Stannis and Jon he’s pushing one character down to lift another up.

Also, I actually think Volantis might become a victim of Danys dark turn. So the Widow and all those on the fence slaves might become victims of her wrath. A way of showing Dany descending into madness and becoming an unnecessary extreme. 

Edited by Tyrion1991

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42 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If she knew it was Jorah why would she send him back to Dany?

She isn't helping Jorah, she is helping Tyrion. And Penny. And Dany.

She believes that life has already become too dangerous for dwarves in Volantis, and that will only get worse when the tigers start their war against Meereen.

She thinks Jorah is the kind of person who should be getting into a Volantene war ship to fight against Dany. But she is quite sure he won't be an appreciable increase of the threat to her, just as she is sure that he and his longsword alone were not enough to protect and defend her from the armies of Yunkai'i, Qarth, Tolos, New Ghis, and Volantis.

I think her idea is that Jorah is one of the godless outlanders conspiring with the eye of evil to put Dany in peril, but Dany is Azor Ahai reborn and he will have to run, like a shadow from the light, or Kraznys' eyeballs.

The Widow intends Tyrion to be her messenger, and her gift to Dany. Her message is "come free Volantis now. " ie. First Volantis, then Westeros, with the help of the freed devotees of the Red God.

Slavery is banned by order of the Dragon Queen, so it is unlikely Jorah will get past the gates og the city dragging Tyrion in fetters behind him as a gift.

Tyrion's head has a fair chance of staying on his shoulders because Dany and her loyalists shouldn't be overly interested in Westerosi Lordships (althoughit turns out Ben Plumm did not get the agenda). He will be able to advise Dany, and they can send Jorah packing again.

Penny will have a better chance of living if she goes with them, because where Dany and her dragons are ,is like Canada in Antebellum America. Westeros and Pentos are like New York City (technically free, but lots of blackbirders around) and Volantis is Mississippi.

Also perhaps because her schtick is a double act, so she needs another dwarf?(tbh I personally really dislike Penny and would much rather she had been helped along by the Widow in Volantis, than board the Selaesori Qhoran with Tyrion and Jorah)

 

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1 hour ago, Walda said:

She isn't helping Jorah, she is helping Tyrion. And Penny. And Dany.

She believes that life has already become too dangerous for dwarves in Volantis, and that will only get worse when the tigers start their war against Meereen.

She thinks Jorah is the kind of person who should be getting into a Volantene war ship to fight against Dany. But she is quite sure he won't be an appreciable increase of the threat to her, just as she is sure that he and his longsword alone were not enough to protect and defend her from the armies of Yunkai'i, Qarth, Tolos, New Ghis, and Volantis.

I think her idea is that Jorah is one of the godless outlanders conspiring with the eye of evil to put Dany in peril, but Dany is Azor Ahai reborn and he will have to run, like a shadow from the light, or Kraznys' eyeballs.

The Widow intends Tyrion to be her messenger, and her gift to Dany. Her message is "come free Volantis now. " ie. First Volantis, then Westeros, with the help of the freed devotees of the Red God.

Slavery is banned by order of the Dragon Queen, so it is unlikely Jorah will get past the gates og the city dragging Tyrion in fetters behind him as a gift.

Tyrion's head has a fair chance of staying on his shoulders because Dany and her loyalists shouldn't be overly interested in Westerosi Lordships (althoughit turns out Ben Plumm did not get the agenda). He will be able to advise Dany, and they can send Jorah packing again.

Penny will have a better chance of living if she goes with them, because where Dany and her dragons are ,is like Canada in Antebellum America. Westeros and Pentos are like New York City (technically free, but lots of blackbirders around) and Volantis is Mississippi.

Also perhaps because her schtick is a double act, so she needs another dwarf?(tbh I personally really dislike Penny and would much rather she had been helped along by the Widow in Volantis, than board the Selaesori Qhoran with Tyrion and Jorah)

 

 

If she only needs Tyrion why take the added risk of bringing Jorah along? She clearly holds the power at that point and could just dispense with him. For somebody who was point blank suspicious that he had darker motives she quite inexplicably decides to include Jorah in her plan.

Honestly I think George is railroading here. He wanted Jorah to meet with Tyrion but then get them to Mereen. However Jorahs meant to be viewed by Tyrion with no filter and them starting to work together is an arc so he can’t/won’t be nice to him. I mean Jorah literally does not want to talk to Tyrion so he makes excuses for this to happen. So, rather than just buy passage he has a third party randomly decide they should both go to Mereen but free Tyrion without making Jorah unnecessary. The whole situation is really contrived. How Jorah even crossed path randomly with Tyrion. How is the only path of passage an anti slavery group who would want Tyrion freed. 

Plus i don’t get what’s achieved by berating Jorah over wanting to pay for passage by boat. It’s not unreasonable and why wouldn’t that be a typical exchange here? When she makes it a test of sincerity she dismisses his motivation which Tyrion who’s meant to be perceptive actually agrees to be the case; so she has misread him completely. But then is okay with the Dwarf who confesses to wanting to murder his Sister because at least he’s honest about being a malicious scumbag. Yeah I am not buying this situation at all. Why does she trust Tyrion exactly? George wants a particular scenario to unfold so is having this bizarre series of events occur.

Oh and you also get the obligatory “oh dumb Jorah can’t read people like clever clever Tyrion.” Because you need complex and nuanced people  skills to pay ten gold to fast travel. You shouldn’t need to trade wits with an enigmatic wise woman. Especially when hundreds of ships are going in an out of Mereen all the time. Clearly the Ironborn are just terrible sailors because those slavers are just coming and going with their armies, camp, siege equipment and supplies. It’s a false situation. He should be able to get passage on any number of ships. Notice Quentin breezes through because the plot needed it but the only way for Jorah is haggling with the Wise Woman.

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13 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If she only needs Tyrion why take the added risk of bringing Jorah along?

Because Jorah has Tyrion in chains and in Volantis it is illegal to help a slave escape

ETA @Tyrion1991, "is okay with the Dwarf who confesses to wanting to rape and murder his Sister" - no need to bring Jorah into it, or even to amend your original point, her love of honesty seems morally questionable.

Edited by Walda

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13 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

He has a funny way of showing it then. It’s a common take away from his work that good is dumb.

George praises the Nights Watch and blames human weakness for the institutions problems. He’s being very literal when Aemon tells him that the Greater Good is served by letting go of your selfish desires that are a temptation which leads men astray. Love to George is depicted as something that is a sin. It’s a temptation and people want it but that makes it socially dangerous.

It has nothing to do with lack of knowledge or naivety. Look at Cat. Whenever she does anything that does not directly concern her she is very wise, intelligent perceptive and has a good measure of things. George repeatedly shows her bad decision making as a result of her emotions clouding her judgement. So he’s not actually saying the characters just need the knowledge, experience and judgement to carry their idealism forward. He’s saying that such feelings and temptations are a corrosive force. 

Thats because those authors don’t railroad the characters with absurd situations. Oh yeah I want to plant some trees in a city, let’s have half the world declare war on me, forget the few million freed slaves who like me, make it impossible geographically for people to get to me etc etc. You can’t railroad a character that much and then pontificate on how you’re the only writer who gets it whilst everyone else is being naive. He isn’t presenting natural situations that would play out. At one point George has Dany read about how she wishes people were like those shifty eyes villains in the stories when George has Mirri, Littlefinger and Varys be exactly that trope. He’s a total hypocrite.

 

 

 

It's your takeaway that George thinks "good is dumb." The truth is that this takeaway is a very simplistic misread of the text. The world George is building is morally complex and machiavellian politicians can and do commit atrocities and get away with them, its true. But he doesn't endorse these atrocities. He's constantly using literal excrement in association with Tywin for example, to show that Tywin and his worldview is, well, shit. He has Jaime go on a monologue about how his KG vows are hopelessly condradictory and forced him into an impossible choice; kill his father, or disobey his king. He has Measter Aemon tell Jon that "love is the death of duty," only to later show us how deeply Aemon loves his little brother Egg and how his choice is still a cause of emotional torment for him. Again and again, George shows us that vows like the ones required by the NW and KG are completely inneffective because they ask human beings to do something that they simply can't do.

I, like others here, do find it odd that you invest so much time into these books when you don't appear to like them all that much.

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9 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

It's your takeaway that George thinks "good is dumb." The truth is that this takeaway is a very simplistic misread of the text. The world George is building is morally complex and machiavellian politicians can and do commit atrocities and get away with them, its true. But he doesn't endorse these atrocities. He's constantly using literal excrement in association with Tywin for example, to show that Tywin and his worldview is, well, shit. He has Jaime go on a monologue about how his KG vows are hopelessly condradictory and forced him into an impossible choice; kill his father, or disobey his king. He has Measter Aemon tell Jon that "love is the death of duty," only to later show us how deeply Aemon loves his little brother Egg and how his choice is still a cause of emotional torment for him. Again and again, George shows us that vows like the ones required by the NW and KG are completely inneffective because they ask human beings to do something that they simply can't do.

I, like others here, do find it odd that you invest so much time into these books when you don't appear to like them all that much.

 

He doesn’t endorse the atrocities, he places the blame on personal hubris and passion. It’s the other side of the coin for the good is dumb element. Which is why he will push emotionless King Bran. Tywin is condemned for his lack of self control and letting his hatred consume him. He doesn’t put the blame on other factors like society, the state, and the nature of war. Which he gives a pass for anyone fortunate enough to wear a Wolf Sigil. 

The blame is put on Jamie having an excessive idealism and his vanity about wanting to be a perfect knight. George introduces that conflict to punish the character for that delusion. In George’s world the ideal man would not place value on that sort of vanity about what people think of you but would do the greater good. Plus, frankly, this is the decision he makes when he kills Aerys and it’s an easy decision to make. It’s just weird that Ned and Rob have a problem with this considering they were rebels themselves. Basically it’s about Jamie letting go of his vanity and ego. 

Which George and Aemon describe as having been weakness. It shames Aemon that he considered breaking his perfect vows for such a base and selfish reason. George isn’t throwing shade at the NW institution. I could say it’s a gulag but that bit how it’s depicted.

I like the complexity and mystery of the story. There’s a lot of humor and witty dialogue which creates suspense and drama. Some of the characters I am quite invested in. However I think the author is totally wrong in the point he’s driving at. It’s on one level a satire of fantasy that’s no longer written for three decades and on another it’s got some sinister undertones that I think DnD inexpertly laid out in the show. Also, he’s clearly making the story up as he goes along and has no plan for the series; which undercuts a lot of the speculation you can make. By Crows and Dance I d say he was starting to lose me and the show has pretty much confirmed that view.

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10 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

He doesn’t endorse the atrocities, he places the blame on personal hubris and passion. It’s the other side of the coin for the good is dumb element. Which is why he will push emotionless King Bran. Tywin is condemned for his lack of self control and letting his hatred consume him. He doesn’t put the blame on other factors like society, the state, and the nature of war. Which he gives a pass for anyone fortunate enough to wear a Wolf Sigil. 

The blame is put on Jamie having an excessive idealism and his vanity about wanting to be a perfect knight. George introduces that conflict to punish the character for that delusion. In George’s world the ideal man would not place value on that sort of vanity about what people think of you but would do the greater good. Plus, frankly, this is the decision he makes when he kills Aerys and it’s an easy decision to make. It’s just weird that Ned and Rob have a problem with this considering they were rebels themselves. Basically it’s about Jamie letting go of his vanity and ego. 

Which George and Aemon describe as having been weakness. It shames Aemon that he considered breaking his perfect vows for such a base and selfish reason. George isn’t throwing shade at the NW institution. I could say it’s a gulag but that bit how it’s depicted.

I like the complexity and mystery of the story. There’s a lot of humor and witty dialogue which creates suspense and drama. Some of the characters I am quite invested in. However I think the author is totally wrong in the point he’s driving at. It’s on one level a satire of fantasy that’s no longer written for three decades and on another it’s got some sinister undertones that I think DnD inexpertly laid out in the show. Also, he’s clearly making the story up as he goes along and has no plan for the series; which undercuts a lot of the speculation you can make. By Crows and Dance I d say he was starting to lose me and the show has pretty much confirmed that view.

I would say that Martin’s position on the NW is clear.  It’s a corrupt institution that has lost sight of its purpose.  By allying with Craster, and fighting the wildlings, they are allying with the Others.

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Lynesse the gold digger scorning poor put-upon Jorah is sketchy and one-sided. He really gives off incel vibes.

Thanks for summing up my whole argument in just two sentences!

Yes, Jorah is basically the worst kind of incel, though with more than a helping of sexual predator.

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15 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Lynesse the gold digger scorning poor put-upon Jorah is sketchy and one-sided. He really gives off incel vibes.

 

I don’t think that’s the case at all. Even the She Bears don’t say that. They dislike her for being a soft and vain outlander; obsessed with luxury. 

I think, barring some messed up glass candle mad maid Hightower I can see the future nonesense, that its a case of Anna from Frozen. She falls madly in love with this guy and then the relationship does not work. But, she stayed with him a very long time, nothing prevented her throwing in the towel earlier or returning to her family and she probably wouldn’t have liked the Puritan Northerners disdain for her culture. I do think George is shaming the character for the vanity of luxury and contrasting her sharply to Cat; but you could view her very sympathetically. She stays with Jorah through exile for quite some time despite repeated failures and disasters. Only then does she leave for another guy which freed the family from debts.

I mean, for all we know, she might have reasoned that this was good for both of them because she could see that Jorah was driving himself into the ground trying to make this work. So her making that decision freed them both. If Jorah still loves and hates her then it stands to reason that the other half is meant to mirror that. Probably wrong, she’s probably going to show up like Cleopatra in Winds and be all sass with Jorah and Dany.

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15 hours ago, SeanF said:

I would say that Martin’s position on the NW is clear.  It’s a corrupt institution that has lost sight of its purpose.  By allying with Craster, and fighting the wildlings, they are allying with the Others.

 

That has lost its way from the pure path. That’s no different than Egwene trying to set the Aes Sedai back onto the correct path. He doesn’t question the core values of the institution being a penal colony, the vows and the whole spartan mentality. These things are praised and contrasted sharply with it compromising those values. George is telling us the NW is good but has lost its way; not condemning it ideals.

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5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I don’t think that’s the case at all. Even the She Bears don’t say that. They dislike her for being a soft and vain outlander; obsessed with luxury. 

I think, barring some messed up glass candle mad maid Hightower I can see the future nonesense, that its a case of Anna from Frozen. She falls madly in love with this guy and then the relationship does not work. But, she stayed with him a very long time, nothing prevented her throwing in the towel earlier or returning to her family and she probably wouldn’t have liked the Puritan Northerners disdain for her culture. I do think George is shaming the character for the vanity of luxury and contrasting her sharply to Cat; but you could view her very sympathetically. She stays with Jorah through exile for quite some time despite repeated failures and disasters. Only then does she leave for another guy which freed the family from debts.

I mean, for all we know, she might have reasoned that this was good for both of them because she could see that Jorah was driving himself into the ground trying to make this work. So her making that decision freed them both. If Jorah still loves and hates her then it stands to reason that the other half is meant to mirror that. Probably wrong, she’s probably going to show up like Cleopatra in Winds and be all sass with Jorah and Dany.

I dont really care about Jorah, he's not even worth all that text you just wrote. But we only hear Jorah's side and he makes it sound like he did nothing wrong, and that Lyness was the unreasonable one, when it may not have been that simple. And if it was, well then Martin just used the same characterization twice, with Shae - both women who were unreasonable about money and too uppity, while the sad, earnest men want nothing but their love. :ack:

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont really care about Jorah, he's not even worth all that text you just wrote. But we only hear Jorah's side and he makes it sound like he did nothing wrong, and that Lyness was the unreasonable one, when it may not have been that simple. And if it was, well then Martin just used the same characterization twice, with Shae - both women who were unreasonable about money and too uppity, while the sad, earnest men want nothing but their love. :ack:

 

The only reason to care about Jorah is because Dany does. You remove that element and well there wouldn’t even be much characterisation at all. He’s entirely defined by how Dany views him and to what extent he meets her idealised view of him.

We also hear Jeor, the She Bears, Sam at the dock where the people of Hightower describe her as a whore. Those aren’t all bigoted individuals and that’s quite a lot of sympathy George wrote into the text which verifies what Jorah said. Plus, he’s not really that harsh on Lynesse considering they divorced (there’s a throwaway line that’s slightly more harsh with Tyrion in ADWD) and that in George’s world wanting things like jewels and singers is bad and not meant to be viewed sympathetically. I think George has pegged Lynesse as a bad apple. If he wanted Jorah to rant about Lynesse he had a good excuse to do that with Tyrion out of Danys earshot and “she left me so she’s could keep her jewels” is pretty milld. Compare that to what Tyrion says of Shae after she testified against him.

George is criticising Jorah because he should have judged Lynesse on her character and not on her looks. It’s that vanity that he’s criticising. The idea that he should then do everything to please his wife becoming a socially destructive thing with the slavery and the debt. The Good Man wouldn’t have wanted to marry Lynesse in the first place and would have had the foresight to not get into that tangle. 

That could very well be George’s view. Certainly in the case of Tyrion with Shae. It’s quite likely given how the She Bears view Lynesse and that they are given favourable treatment by George that this is his view. His criticism of Jorah is almost entirely due to him placing his selfish desires over the society. That’s where the push for him to join the NW comes from. But again he’s criticising the judgement of character that those men had in falling for those women. He’s saying they shouldn’t want their love.

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1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It’s quite likely given how the She Bears view Lynesse and that they are given favourable treatment by George that this is his view.

Quote

But again he’s criticising the judgement of character that those men had in falling for those women.

I dont think its favoritism, it's just contrast. Cat thinks she is similar to Lynesse because she couldn't be tough enough like the Mormont women, using axes and shit. But still House Mormont faces tragedy at the Red Wedding even if they are "tough as nails." It's not all about jewels for Lyness either - Jorah says Lynesse wanted to be somewhere warm. Can't really blame her there. It sounds like she is spending extravagantly to cope with the huge change in her environment. It's relatable. I spent a lot of our household's money when I moved across the country as shopping therapy, and I resented my husband for not earning more. Am I one of "those women"?

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 2/20/2021 at 2:17 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So, is Jorah worse than we're led to assume?

He's grey.  Just the sort preferred by the author.  Jorah sold poachers to the slavers.  I had no illusions about him being a nice guy.  But I appreciate his transformation into a loyal protector to Dany.  I can forgive Jorah for his past as long as he continues to protect Dany and her interests.  

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38 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont think its favoritism, it's just contrast. Cat thinks she is similar to Lynesse because she couldn't be tough enough like the Mormont women, using axes and shit. But still House Mormont faces tragedy at the Red Wedding even if they are "tough as nails." It's not all about jewels for Lyness either - Jorah says Lynesse wanted to be somewhere warm. Can't really blame her there. It sounds like she is spending extravagantly to cope with the huge change in her environment. It's relatable. I spent a lot of our household's money when I moved across the country as shopping therapy, and I resented my husband for not earning more. Am I one of "those women"?

 

TBH I never got how a man ruling an island the size of Iceland can’t afford a bard and sundry luxury items for one woman. It’s a little bit off. Plus he wouldn’t be the first absentee Lord or could have taken up court service in a warmer climate. I mean if he is a military guy he could offer to be a Varangian style mercenary at Oldtown for her father. The situation is kind of suspect.

George frames that as a martyrdom at the Red Wedding. So he makes us like Dacey and Maege to put some faces to the brutality of the Red Wedding. Rather than it be some miserly Glover let’s focus on the down to earth cool warrior women being killed by the Freys. It’s why the Reeds and Mormonts are so pro Stark, it’s part of George framing the Starks as good if these virtuous little guy Houses are so beholden to them. So I think that does set Jorah up as a prodigal son type character and that requires some sympathy from his family. It’s setting up him leaving Dany for his family by joining the NW.

I think that’s George having a sly dig that she should have known who she was marrying. Which is him knocking the whole love at first sight story and that they haven’t thought this through. It’s right next to the wall how would you not know it was cold? 

You’d have to ask George that. It’s fair to say he has an issue with materialism. I don’t think Lynesse is really at fault here and it’s a little bit too absurd to take seriously. You’re saying love at first sight is bad and working hard to please your other half is bad by creating this absurd and contrived situation where it leads to slavery and this dramatic exile of Ned coming for his head? Yeah I don’t buy that. It’s like the Twincest where the situation is so bizarre and weird that it undermines what he’s passing commentary on. There’s a dozen different ways that could turn out if you shifted a few circumstances, solutions that fail because reasons and potential work arounds that are left unspoken. That’s kind of fine if you’re doing a tragedy. But again it’s all part of that love vs duty angle.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

TBH I never got how a man ruling an island the size of Iceland can’t afford a bard and sundry luxury items for one woman. It’s a little bit off. Plus he wouldn’t be the first absentee Lord or could have taken up court service in a warmer climate. I mean if he is a military guy he could offer to be a Varangian style mercenary at Oldtown for her father. The situation is kind of suspect.

George frames that as a martyrdom at the Red Wedding. So he makes us like Dacey and Maege to put some faces to the brutality of the Red Wedding. Rather than it be some miserly Glover let’s focus on the down to earth cool warrior women being killed by the Freys. It’s why the Reeds and Mormonts are so pro Stark, it’s part of George framing the Starks as good if these virtuous little guy Houses are so beholden to them. So I think that does set Jorah up as a prodigal son type character and that requires some sympathy from his family. It’s setting up him leaving Dany for his family by joining the NW.

I think that’s George having a sly dig that she should have known who she was marrying. Which is him knocking the whole love at first sight story and that they haven’t thought this through. It’s right next to the wall how would you not know it was cold? 

You’d have to ask George that. It’s fair to say he has an issue with materialism. I don’t think Lynesse is really at fault here and it’s a little bit too absurd to take seriously. You’re saying love at first sight is bad and working hard to please your other half is bad by creating this absurd and contrived situation where it leads to slavery and this dramatic exile of Ned coming for his head? Yeah I don’t buy that. It’s like the Twincest where the situation is so bizarre and weird that it undermines what he’s passing commentary on. There’s a dozen different ways that could turn out if you shifted a few circumstances, solutions that fail because reasons and potential work arounds that are left unspoken. That’s kind of fine if you’re doing a tragedy. But again it’s all part of that love vs duty angle.

 

 

Maege wasn’t at the Red Wedding. She’s somewhere in the Neck.

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Alot of great writers can't do math. I wouldn't be surprised if the inconsistency about how rich Jorah was was simply a mistake by George. With that said Jorah fucking sucks.

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