Jon’s is the song of Ice and Fire

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 2/21/2021 at 2:35 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

During Dany’s visions she sees Rhaegar claiming that his son in the Prince that was promised and his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

Rhaegar is specifically claiming that his son with Elia, Aegon, is TPTWP in that vision. It's obviously possible that Rhaegar was mistaken and that another son of his is the actual PTWP and whose song is that of ice and fire, but it's also entirely possible that he was wrong about TPTWP being one of his children altogether. The most specific prophecy we've gotten is the woods witch saying that TPTWP will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. I'd say that Rhaegar thinking the prince had to be his kid isn't evidence that it must actually be so rather than a sibling, but if the prophecy states that this prince will have a song of ice and fire, then I think that part is evidence for Jon given his parentage. Not arguing against your overall theory, I'm fairly agnostic on the question of who TPTWP is and think Jon is a very plausible option, just wanted to point that out.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

45 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Rhaegar is specifically claiming that his son with Elia, Aegon, is TPTWP in that vision. It's obviously possible that Rhaegar was mistaken and that another son of his is the actual PTWP and whose song is that of ice and fire, but it's also entirely possible that he was wrong about TPTWP being one of his children altogether. The most specific prophecy we've gotten is the woods witch saying that TPTWP will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. I'd say that Rhaegar thinking the prince had to be his kid isn't evidence that it must actually be so rather than a sibling, but if the prophecy states that this prince will have a song of ice and fire, then I think that part is evidence for Jon given his parentage. Not arguing against your overall theory, I'm fairly agnostic on the question of who TPTWP is and think Jon is a very plausible option, just wanted to point that out.

I think that GRRM is never gonna give us a straight answer as to whom the TPTWP is, just leave several possibilities, like Stannis, Jon, Aegon, Bran or Dany.

[Lord of Blackhaven]

26 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think that GRRM is never gonna give us a straight answer as to whom the TPTWP is, just leave several possibilities, like Stannis, Jon, Aegon, Bran or Dany.

Quite likely. Its the McGuffin that drives the story forward.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Rhaegar is specifically claiming that his son with Elia, Aegon, is TPTWP in that vision. It's obviously possible that Rhaegar was mistaken and that another son of his is the actual PTWP and whose song is that of ice and fire, but it's also entirely possible that he was wrong about TPTWP being one of his children altogether.

It depends on what story he is interpreting. The Rhoynish legend of the Long Night is about a hero who joined together with the children of Mother Rhoyne in a secret song. I don't think it's a stretch that he was looking at Aegon's own heritage down Elia's line to come to that conclusion. Elia's marriage to Rhaegar reintroduces the blood of the Rhoynar into his line. 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It depends on what story he is interpreting. The Rhoynish legend of the Long Night is about a hero who joined together with the children of Mother Rhoyne in a secret song. I don't think it's a stretch that he was looking at Aegon's own heritage down Elia's line to come to that conclusion. Elia's marriage to Rhaegar reintroduces the blood of the Rhoynar into his line. 

Whatever story he was looking at, it remains possible that he was wrong in his interpretation, or that the story itself was wrong. That's the only point I was making.

[Springwatch]

Different stories - that's an important point. We know that the legends of AA and the Ptwp have the same origin, because of salt and smoke, but the traditions of Targs and red priests have probably diverged quite a bit (Targs show little interest in R'hllor or any god, use a different name for the hero, and besides, have prophetic talent of their own). It's even possible that each tradition will find a candidate with strong markers to be that ultimate hero.

Otherwise the ultimate hero being AA and defined by red priests - that would be a stumbling block for Jon. His markers (salt and smoke, bleeding star) - appear only in a faint, shadowy way. But he might appear stronger in the Ptwp legend (which we don't really know about).

(Weak things are still important, in my view, because I think they belong  to the night somehow - but that doesn't connect well with R'hllorism either.)

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

11 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Altough I think Jon is Azor Ahai, I don't think the Song of Ice and Fire is his. Or any single individuals'. It's the song of the living and the dead. 

Rhaegar was kinda wrong about many things, I think. He might be seen as one of the most important characters of this 'song', maybe even the most important, but we can't ignore people like Bran, Daenerys, Arya or Tyrion (not being a secret Targaryen bastard). These people are all important, in the order I presented them (I think). If there ever be a tale or a song about this, these people will likely be included. Maybe Young Griff and Jaime too.

10 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Don't forget Stannis either. Sure, he might not be the hero, but given where his story is headed I think he will be a hero.

I am not claiming that Jon will single handedly beat the Others and R’hllor. Last Hero had 13 companions but we only know about him, Aegon and his sisters landed at Westeros but yet it’s Aegon’s Landings Visenya and Rhaenys are just his companions. Same with Jon. Dany, Bran, Arya, Stannis and Tyrion might fight by his side but it’s one the  one who will be remembered at the end.

[CamiloRP]

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Yeah, I know. I mean, a lot of readers do like him, but from the moment he did that thingy with the leeches, I can't see him or Melisandre as good characters. Even if it didn't work, it's one of the most amoral things I've reaf in the books.

On the other hand, he's clearly the murderer of his own brother, even if he was his usurper.

Nor the North gives him any credit for anything. Lord Manderly thinks he is the way trough to Stark restauration, but that's all. 

They don't like him, nor does anyone south of Moat Cailin. Nor the wildlings. Only the mountain clans (or so does it seem).

Simply because he's a dick. Always been, and is pretty responsible for what happened in KL.

Edit: Characters doing good does not make them good. Tho I don't hate the character at all, I feel no simpathy to him (not that way).

I kinda like Stannis, but after all the sinister things he's done, he won't get rewarded, and there's a character similar to him in GRRM's The Armageddon Rag, and his meddling with blood sacrifice ruins him.

[Daeron the Daring]

8 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I am not claiming that Jon will single handedly beat the Others and R’hllor. Last Hero had 13 companions but we only know about him, Aegon and his sisters landed at Westeros but yet it’s Aegon’s Landings Visenya and Rhaenys are just his companions. Same with Jon. Dany, Bran, Arya, Stannis and Tyrion might fight by his side but it’s one the  one who will be remembered at the end.

Nor was I refering to you believing such a thing. What I meant is that the song of Ice and Fire isn't just Jon's.

Just as the Conquest isn't just Aegon's. Altough it's called Aegon's conquest, the people who know who Aegon was surely know Visenya and Rhaenys too, even if Aegon is the story's main character. They're part of the story, right after Aegon.

[James West]

On 2/21/2021 at 5:35 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Before we begin let me make clear that this is a thread only for Jon. Considering that, please let’s stay on topic. It’s perfectly fine if you disagree and you believe that any other character fits better but this is for Jon.

 

Now that we cleared that let us continue. In the story the way it’s portrayed so far it seems like both Ice and Fire are enemies of the humans. Both R’hllor and the Great Other are savages much like their followers. Now, the way it seems to me is that when they are under control, the balance between the two of them is where both of them are beneficial for the mankind. When ice can preserve life and fire can protect life. In the books the phrase Ice and Fire is mentioned many times.

• During the Dance of the Dragons the marriage pact between Houses Stark and Targaryen was named the pact of Ice and Fire.
• During Dany’s visions she sees Rhaegar claiming that his son in the Prince that was promised and his is the Song of Ice and Fire.
• During the War of Five Kings when the Reeds arrived in Winterfell they pledged their fealty to the Starks by Ice and Fire.

The character who combines both of those elements and has connections with all of those cases is Jon. His birth was because Rhaegar was obsessed with the Prince that was Promised prophecy and he was the result of the union, marriage, between Houses Stark and Targaryen. One of the very few people who know Jon’s identity is Howland Reed who also coincidentally might be in possession of Robb’s will.

The balance between the two elements is the reason I believe that Jon is the Prince that was Promised. He is Azor Ahai when it comes to the fire element, after all he is what R’hllor shows in his fire to Melisandre and he is a Snow who owns a Wall made of Ice. He sees in his vision that he has armour of black Ice holding a flame red sword killing wights. He comes from two families with ancestral swords named Ice and Blackfyre. He is the champion of Azor Ahai who because of his connection with ice has fire under control and brings balance to both of them.

 

All ideas and thoughts are welcome as long as it is not turned in an off topic and/or hate thread.

Jon is not Azor Ahai.  Aemon got to know him well and it never entered his mind that this guy was Azor Ahai.  The Dance of the Dragon happened a long time ago.  It is a very interesting chapter in history but it is not related to Jon.  There is only person who has woken dragons from stone and that is Daenerys Targaryen.  She is Azor Ahai, not Jon Snow.  Trying to limit the discussion to only what you agree with is not really a discussion.  It's just you expressing an opinion.  Any opinion is open to be challenged and I am challenging yours.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 hours ago, James West said:

Trying to limit the discussion to only what you agree with is not really a discussion.  It's just you expressing an opinion.

Oh, the sweet irony.

3 hours ago, James West said:

The Dance of the Dragon happened a long time ago.

What the fuck does the Dance have to do with anything? Are you just spewing stuff randomly now, seeing what sticks?

3 hours ago, James West said:

There is only person who has woken dragons from stone and that is Daenerys Targaryen.

So you're proof is just one single line from the Red Rhallo prophecy of the savior, the same Red Rhallo who's servant believes Stannis (and soon enough) Jon is the chosen one?

3 hours ago, James West said:

She is Azor Ahai, not Jon Snow.

Prove it. The mountain of hints and foreshadowing for Jon being the savior and the King is sky High. You're apparently basing it all on one line of prophecy.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

3 hours ago, James West said:

Jon is not Azor Ahai.  Aemon got to know him well and it never entered his mind that this guy was Azor Ahai.  The Dance of the Dragon happened a long time ago.  It is a very interesting chapter in history but it is not related to Jon.  There is only person who has woken dragons from stone and that is Daenerys Targaryen.  She is Azor Ahai, not Jon Snow.  Trying to limit the discussion to only what you agree with is not really a discussion.  It's just you expressing an opinion.  Any opinion is open to be challenged and I am challenging yours.

 

On 2/21/2021 at 10:35 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

this is a thread only for Jon. Considering that, please let’s stay on topic. It’s perfectly fine if you disagree and you believe that any other character fits better but this is for Jon.

21 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

this is a thread only for Jon. Considering that, please let’s stay on topic. It’s perfectly fine if you disagree and you believe that any other character fits better but this is for Jon.

Even better the same Red Rhallo who ignores the dragons and as Melisandre said I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Even better the same Red Rhallo who ignores the dragons and as Melisandre said I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

As I said, the mountain of evidence for Jon is actually sky high, and also check this out:

HE'S THE ONLY MAIN CHARACTER ACTUALLY FIGHTING THE OTHERS!

Now, I stand by the fact that the Azor Ahai thing is a bit of Red Herring, but even so Jon is by far the most likely contender, because he's actually involved against the Others. Every action he takes in ADWD, even the ones the Watch objects too, serve for that fight.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

10 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As I said, the mountain of evidence for Jon is actually sky high, and also check this out:

HE'S THE ONLY MAIN CHARACTER ACTUALLY FIGHTING THE OTHERS!

Now, I stand by the fact that the Azor Ahai thing is a bit of Red Herring, but even so Jon is by far the most likely contender, because he's actually involved against the Others. Every action he takes in ADWD, even the ones the Watch objects too, serve for that fight.

Don’t you know? Dany killing Kraznys was what fulfilled the prophecy. It would seem like the Others are not the enemies.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Don’t you know? Dany killing Kraznys was what fulfilled the prophecy. It would seem like the Others are not the enemies.

Obviously, the main enemies aren't the existential ice zombie threat, nor the existential dragon WMD threat, it's actually a bunch of cartoonish villains located halfway around the world from the main setting of the story.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Obviously, the main enemies aren't the existential ice zombie threat, nor the existential dragon WMD threat, it's actually a bunch of cartoonish villains located halfway around the world from the main setting of the story.

and the 12, and even younger, kids that were killed they were evil slavers and the worst enemies of all.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

and the 12, and even younger, kids that were killed they were evil slavers and the worst enemies of all.

As for Hazzea, she was the great Other herself.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As for Hazzea, she was the great Other herself.

She was killing babies and eating puppies.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

She was killing babies and eating puppies.

Even the other way around at times. She deserved to burn

[CamiloRP]

3 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

She was killing babies and eating puppies.

Really nothing to do with anything, but my favorite 'she's evil' quote comes from the great DOB himself.

'She eats babies and poops them out in the shape of swastikas.'