Jon’s is the song of Ice and Fire

[El Guapo]

7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Oh, the sweet irony.

What the fuck does the Dance have to do with anything? Are you just spewing stuff randomly now, seeing what sticks?

So you're proof is just one single line from the Red Rhallo prophecy of the savior, the same Red Rhallo who's servant believes Stannis (and soon enough) Jon is the chosen one?

Prove it. The mountain of hints and foreshadowing for Jon being the savior and the King is sky High. You're apparently basing it all on one line of prophecy.

umm. not really. King, sure. But Azor Ahai? You have to twist things into a pretzel to get him to fit that prophecy.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

umm. not really. King, sure. But Azor Ahai? You have to twist things into a pretzel to get him to fit that prophecy.

@Lilac & Gooseberries you're the one that has a mountain of foreshadowing bigger than J Edgar Hoover's intelligence files.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

umm. not really. King, sure. But Azor Ahai? You have to twist things into a pretzel to get him to fit that prophecy.

Ultimately,  I think the one we can nail as AA; will be the one who plunges his sword into the heart of the character who stands in for Nissa Nissa.  

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Only after battles." The archmaester peeled a sourleaf off a bale, shoved it in his mouth, and began to chew it. "Tell me all you told our Dornish sphinx. I know much of it and more, but some small parts may have escaped my notice."

He was not a man to be refused. Sam hesitated a moment, then told his tale again as Marywn, Alleras, and the other novice listened. "Maester Aemon believed that Daenerys Targaryen was the fulfillment of a prophecy . . . her, not Stannis, nor Prince Rhaegar, nor the princeling whose head was dashed against the wall."

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

 

So, don't trust what you think you know about the prophecy.

[El Guapo]

13 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

@Lilac & Gooseberries you're the one that has a mountain of foreshadowing bigger than J Edgar Hoover's intelligence files.

No she doesn't. She has loads of foreshadowing that Jon may become king which is completely different than who is Azor Ahai. 

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/21/2021 at 4:35 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Both R’hllor and the Great Other are savages much like their followers.

Just curious, is Melisandre a "savage"?  Seems more like a zealot to me than a savage.  And who exactly are followers of the "Greath Other"?  As far as I can tell, the only mention of the "Great Other" was through Melisandre as an antagonist to R'hllor.  

On 2/21/2021 at 4:35 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

The character who combines both of those elements and has connections with all of those cases is Jon. His birth was because Rhaegar was obsessed with the Prince that was Promised prophecy and he was the result of the union, marriage, between Houses Stark and Targaryen.

I always recoil a bit when a theory is built upon another theory.  Not always the most stable of foundations.  But I do agree at least partly that circumstances of Jon's birth are probably wrapped up in Rhaegar's belief of the Prince that Was Promised.  Just not sure to exactly how, because all of the evidence we have suggested that Rhaegar firmly believed that his son with Elia was the Prince that Was Promised.

What we know of Jon for sure is that he appears to be a Stark through and through.  From Tyrion to Craster to Qhorin to Tormund have all remakred on that.  His identity is also tied into the Great Wall of Ice that he has sworn to defend and his deep down desire for Winterfell.

But even if Jon's identity is only a Stark that doesn't mean that he may not have "fire" elements as well.  After all one of the interesting aspects of Winterfell is that it is built on hot springs.  And perhaps Winterfell was named because it is the duty of the Starks to end a Long Winter.  

And the Reeds oath to the Starks seemed to have very little to do with House Targaryen, so I don't think the "fire" element necessarily has to be tied to a fantasized Targaryen heritage.  The Starks may very well represent a balance between the two elemental forces.

 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

@Lilac & Gooseberries you're the one that has a mountain of foreshadowing bigger than J Edgar Hoover's intelligence files.

Reporting for duty.

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I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

Before anyone say that its snow she sees

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Skulls, A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow

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Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.

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That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?
“It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

GRRM said that Azor Ahai is the Prince that was promised. The Prince will be of Rhaegar's blood and the people born with Rhaegar's blood are six, Rhaegar, Viserys, Dany, Aegon, Rhaenys, Rhaego and the seventh, Jon, is yet to be found.

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Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the wall he sent them down to die again.

The prophecy

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When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

Jon’s stabbing in ADWD Jon XIII

The red star bleeds

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The screaming had stopped by the time they came to Hardin's Tower, but Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun was still roaring. The giant was dangling a bloody corpse by one leg, the same way Arya used to dangle her doll when she was small, swinging it like a morningstar when menaced by vegetables. Arya never tore her dolls to pieces, though. The dead man's sword arm was yards away, the snow beneath it turning red.

Ser Patrek’s sigil is a star and he is bleeding.

The darkness gathers
Jon’s previous chapter, JonXII, ends like that

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Night falls, he thought, and now my war begins.

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In the cold night air the wound was smoking.

Amidst smoke

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In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. 

Amidst salt

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Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon’s body can be preserved in the Wall itself

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As they moved from one vault to another, the wormways seemed to grow colder. Before long Jon could see their breath frosting in the lantern light. "We're beneath the Wall. "And soon inside it," said Marsh. "The meat won't spoil in the cold. For long storage, it's better than salting."

the Wall is made of salty, sea perhaps, water

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door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

 

The theory I like is the one which claims that the salt and smoke part is a misinterpretation of a vision  because the people in Asshai didn’t know what mist and snow are.

Quote

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

This is coincidental, or not. I do believe that the Night’s Watch is the Lightbringer of the present and Jon is the leader of Night’s Watch.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

2 hours ago, El Guapo said:

No she doesn't. She has loads of foreshadowing that Jon may become king which is completely different than who is Azor Ahai. 

I can speak for myself if that's ok with you.

[El Guapo]

Like I said, you really have to twist things like a pretzel in order to fit John. Stars on a sigil, smoke from a wound, tears from the wall or from Bowen., the NW being lightbringer,  etc.  Not to mention the fact that John isn't being reborn at this time he is being killed.  And of course no dragons being awoken from stione. As far as John's dream goes,. He literally has this dream hours after being told about the prophecy and the sword. Had he had this dream long before that I might take that seriously. As far as Mel goes, she is consistently wrong in her visions, not sure why we should take her seriously now

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

It’s fine if you chose to disagree with the text. That doesn’t mean that the text is wrong, that means that you disagree with it.

[El Guapo]

I don't disagree with the text. I disagree with your interpretations and conclusions you make  of the text. There is a difference.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

Let's go back on topic.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

Quote

The screaming had stopped by the time they came to Hardin's Tower, but Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun was still roaring. The giant was dangling a bloody corpse by one leg, the same way Arya used to dangle her doll when she was small, swinging it like a morningstar when menaced by vegetables. Arya never tore her dolls to pieces, though. The dead man's sword arm was yards away, the snow beneath it turning red.

I don't know if it can count as a foreshadowing but the wording of this one can make someone wonder. Ser Patrek is compared with a morning-star.

[chrisdaw]

Ice represents decisions and actions made by dispassionate calculation. To be governed by the logic and numbers, void of human feeling. Fire represents the opposite, decisions and actions motivated by passion and emotion, often hypocritical and illogical when scrutinised from afar.

The series is firstly an argument that the best course is one of moderation through both fire and ice and one must remain versatile and wary to never go too far the one direction. Jon's arc is the primary, and his is to be a successful negotiation of ice and fire culminating in his decision making saving Westeros. It will manifest in the following manner.

Dany will seduce Jon to become pregnant by him, the child she will intend to sacrifice to wake a dragon to save Westeros. If she is to sacrifice the child her success in waking a dragon will be believed to be likely by herself, Jon and most other people close to the situation, as the magic will be more understood at this late stage. It will also plausibly seem the only hope to save the world, as Dany's current dragons will all be lost/dead.

Jon has the choice to try and save the child from Dany or not, and in his arc are the arguments for and against. The arguments for allowing Dany to sacrifice the child;

- He didn't want the child, he was tricked into conceiving it, what Dany does with it is nothing to do with him.

- He will be trying to save the realm himself, and if the sacrifice of this child's life will save everyone then isn't that worth it? Even if he is to save the child from Dany it will just die with everyone else when the Others win. The child is doomed either way, may as well let her try this.

- Targs sacrifice children for the power to ride dragons, it's what they did. His father conceived Jon himself in the knowledge that Jon was to be sacrificed to save the world. This is manifest destiny.

And this position is Ice. It is to distance himself from the child, his child, to forego a parental duty, to forego parental love. Jon will have seemingly come back from the dead, and the question for some will be if he has lost all his humanity in death (as was happening to Beric and has happened to Stoneheart), refusal to try and save his child would be their answer. The position of fire is to intervene to save his child, the argument for is fairly straightforward, what kind of monster allows his child be sacrificed? Ned would never. It is driven by emotion.

It is not without purpose that in Jon's arc the unfeeling decisions of ice coincide with Targaryen culture and that the passionate fire feelings are the Stark (Ned) way. In Dany's arc her decision to sacrifice her child will be one of passion, fire, she simply can't sit by and do nothing while people die and suffer. Her desire to make amends for having lost her dragons in petty wars and her overwhelming desire to save people will drive her willingness to sacrifice her child. The same actions can come from different thought processes or motivations.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

So, don't trust what you think you know about the prophecy.

I agree with that. My favourite theory about the salt and smoke part is about the prophecy we have being a misinterpretation of a vision because the people in Asshai didn’t know what mist and snow are. I read here but I cannot find it. If anyone knows it please help me find it again.

[Springwatch]

20 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

on’s stabbing in ADWD Jon XIII

The red star bleeds

Quote

The screaming had stopped by the time they came to Hardin's Tower, but Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun was still roaring. The giant was dangling a bloody corpse by one leg, the same way Arya used to dangle her doll when she was small, swinging it like a morningstar when menaced by vegetables. Arya never tore her dolls to pieces, though. The dead man's sword arm was yards away, the snow beneath it turning red.

Ser Patrek’s sigil is a star and he is bleeding.

The darkness gathers
Jon’s previous chapter, JonXII, ends like that

Quote

Night falls, he thought, and now my war begins.

Quote

In the cold night air the wound was smoking.

Amidst smoke

Quote

In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. 

Amidst salt

Quote

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

 

These signs are WEAK. Or if you prefer, cryptic. Very, very cryptic. It's not going off topic to say that stronger signs are possible.

Do you have a theory as to why Jon's links to the prophecy are 'cryptic'?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

12 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

These signs are WEAK. Or if you prefer, cryptic. Very, very cryptic. It's not going off topic to say that stronger signs are possible.

Do you have a theory as to why Jon's links to the prophecy are 'cryptic'?

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

These signs are WEAK. Or if you prefer, cryptic. Very, very cryptic. It's not going off topic to say that stronger signs are possible.

Do you have a theory as to why Jon's links to the prophecy are 'cryptic'?

They are not signs, is the fulfilment of the first part of the prophecy in a chapter, that is if we have the correct prophesy.  That is why I am quoting the text, because the wording is almost identical. Are there less cryptic signs? Of course there are and that is the red herring’s role in a story. They are big, they are loud, everyone is talking about them and they are false.                                                     

My personal favourite theory is even more cryptic, the wording of the prophecy we have is wrong.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

25 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

These signs are WEAK.

Unlike Dany's dragons that are filled with life and vigor, clear signs showing her to be Azor Ahai.

Jokes aside, given the amount of perfectly valid interpretations, yeah, most of the signs are weak, but I think that that is by design on GRRM's part, never letting us now a definitive answer, just like I doubt we will ever know Aegon's true identity.

[Springwatch]

12 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

They are not signs, is the fulfilment of the first part of the prophecy in a chapter, that is if we have the correct prophesy.  That is why I am quoting the text, because the wording is almost identical. Are there less cryptic signs? Of course there are and that is the red herring’s role in a story. They are big, they are loud, everyone is talking about them and they are false.                                                     

My personal favourite theory is even more cryptic, the wording of the prophecy we have is wrong.

Prophecy is treacherous; that has to be true; but from the readers' point of view, there has to be some kind of rhyme and reason to it, else the story is not satisfying; and fantasy is less forgiving to red herrings than detective fiction is.

We've got multiple versions of the 'AA' legend - possibly there is a 'true' version which will manifest in just one individual, but I think I'd prefer it if, as the legend has evolved multiple versions, there are now multiple ways to be 'AA'.

[Springwatch]

9 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Jokes aside, given the amount of perfectly valid interpretations, yeah, most of the signs are weak, but I think that that is by design on GRRM's part, never letting us now a definitive answer, just like I doubt we will ever know Aegon's true identity.

    Oh my. Let's not go that far...

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, Springwatch said:

11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Jokes aside, given the amount of perfectly valid interpretations, yeah, most of the signs are weak, but I think that that is by design on GRRM's part, never letting us now a definitive answer, just like I doubt we will ever know Aegon's true identity.

    Oh my. Let's not go that far...

I meant in the terms of leaving it ambiguous, not never publishing ADOS.