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Egged

Tinfoil: Daenerys is a skinchanged Ashara Dayne

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So I have been reading a lot of the bits about skinchanging, glamors, and faceless men skin-swap. It's curious how they all share some specific bits, particularly relating to memory. Skinchangers can forgot who they are. Glamors have items that "remember" ("the bones remember"). Faceless men face-masks keep memories of their former selves.
 
Which all started to remind me of Daenerys and the home with the red door and its lemon tree. That strange memory that doesn't quite fit with Daenerys' known timeline.
 
Unless Ashara didn't fall, she flew. Falling upward to the stars, at Starfall.
 
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She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

"Quaithe?" Dany called. "Where are you, Quaithe?"

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

 
Remember who she is? What do the dragons know? That she is NOT Daenerys.
 
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Wings shadowed her fever dreams.

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
 
She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.
 
"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
 
She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

She sees HOME in the distance, but when she tries to go back to it Viseris threatens her, so she is taken back to being Daenerys in Drogo's arms, yet she then calls for home again, but home disappears: the stars disappear as wings appear. Stars disappearing, Starfall, in Dorne, where the lemon trees grow, home disappears from her twice when threatened by the waking dragon. The dragons know. Their wings shadow her dreams.

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"They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. "When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."

 

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"Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

Different skins are easier to change into than others. So what about a baby?

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Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see.

Was Ashara told to fly? Like Bran? Like Euron?

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"Fly or die!" cried the three-eyed crow as it pecked at him.

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Flying was even better than climbing.

Slipping into Summer's skin had become as easy for him as slipping on a pair of breeches once had been*, before his back was broken. Changing his own skin for a raven's night-black feathers had been harder, but not as hard as he had feared, not with these ravens. "A wild stallion will buck and kick when a man tries to mount him, and try to bite the hand that slips the bit between his teeth," Lord Brynden said, "but a horse that has known one rider will accept another. Young or old, these birds have all been ridden.* Choose one now, and fly."

And Ashara can still be seen in Daenerys' eyes.

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Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

There is also how when the Faceless Men put on faces of others, they have some of their memories. This happened to Arya, she saw the man who abused the girl she was wearing the face of.

 

 
And even with Faceless Men, the face remembers:
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A face floated in front of her, fat, bearded, brutal, his mouth twisted with rage. She heard the priest say, "Breathe, child. Breathe out the fear. Shake off the shadows. He is dead. She is dead. Her pain is gone. Breathe."

[...]

"You may have bad dreams for a time," warned the kindly man. "Her father beat her so often and so brutally that she was never truly free of pain or fear until she came to us."

 
 
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"It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."
No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.
"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.

 

 

Edited by Egged

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But if Daario is Euron who is also Benjen, does that mean that the Stark at Harrenhal was Benjen?

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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28 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Is there a cloud where the souls are stored until someone downloads them?

Most definitely given that Viserys's soul was transferred into Viserion, explaining the dragon's life and vigor.

Or at least so I've been told.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Most definitely given that Viserys's soul was transferred into Viserion, explaining the dragon's life and vigor.

Or at least so I've been told.

If so why you choose Viserys? He was a worm. Choose Vhagar, Maegor or Daemon. They had much more life and vigor.

Edited by Lilac & Gooseberries

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16 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

If so why you choose Viserys? He was a worm. Choose Vhagar, Maegor or Daemon. They had much more life and vigor.

Hey, I'm not the one writing the fan fiction.

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On 2/25/2021 at 10:13 PM, Egged said:

Different skins are easier to change into than others. So what about a baby?

Was Ashara told to fly? Like Bran? Like Euron?

That's a nice collection of evidence, but your conclusion seems very far-fetched: definitely in the tinfoil category.

Is there any reason to think that Ashara was a skin-changer? Starks seem to inherit the ability, but we don't know of anything like that for House Dayne.

Baby Daenerys was many leagues away at the time; the two had never met. Do we have any examples of skinchanging under those conditions?

If Ashara's mind was in Daenerys's body all through her infancy and childhood, there would probably have been some clues: unusual intelligence at an early age, memories of places she had never been, fluency in languages she had never studied, etc.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Baby Daenerys was many leagues away at the time; the two had never met. Do we have any examples of skinchanging under those conditions?

Baby Dany wasn't even born then. Dany was born almost half a year after Ashara's death.

Edited by Lilac & Gooseberries

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  1. Ashara is Septa Lemore
  2. Elissa Farman is Quaithe
  3. Daenerys Targaryen is Azor Ahai

Daenerys is the one person who has a known identity, Daenerys of House Targaryen.  The warlocks in the House of Black and White took great pains to prove this.  Child of Three, Mother of Dragons, etc.  You can play around with Ashara and Elissa but the identity of Daenerys has been proven by the prophecies.  She is the daughter of King Aerys 2 and Queen Rhaella, future Azor Ahai, Mother of Dragons, and heir to Westeros. 

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9 minutes ago, Aebram said:

That's a nice collection of evidence, but your conclusion seems very far-fetched: definitely in the tinfoil category.

Is there any reason to think that Ashara was a skin-changer? Starks seem to inherit the ability, but we don't know of anything like that for House Dayne.

Baby Daenerys was many leagues away at the time; the two had never met. Do we have any examples of skinchanging under those conditions?

If Ashara's mind was in Daenerys's body all through her infancy and childhood, there would probably have been some clues: unusual intelligence at an early age, memories of places she had never been, fluency in languages she had never studied, etc.

How long does it take for one to forget themselves? From what we have seen of the Stark kids so far when they end up in their wolves, it seems fairly quick. The POV are described as if they don't even understand they are in their wolves and they see their siblings as sisters and brothers. It seems to be a very narrow bridge between being who you knew you were and being the beast. And that was always them spending very little time in the wolves, a few hours at best?

Now what happens after being in a baby for months? Even Arya seems to be forgetting who she is, becoming a cat or a mouse for a bit, without even actually skinchanging into them, and she worries about forgetting the names on her kill-list.

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"Ser Gregor, Dunsen, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling. The Tickler and the Hound. Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, King Joffrey, Queen Cersei." Arya tried to imagine how they would look when they were dead, but it was hard to bring their faces to mind. The Hound she could see, and his brother the Mountain, and she would never forget Joffrey's face, or his mother's . . . but Raff and Dunsen and Polliver were all fading, and even the Tickler, whose looks had been so commonplace.

And Ned who forgets his friends' faces too:

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In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

And Beric, who has spent the most time revived:

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"Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?"

And skin remembers:

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A face floated in front of her, fat, bearded, brutal, his mouth twisted with rage. She heard the priest say, "Breathe, child. Breathe out the fear. Shake off the shadows. He is dead. She is dead. Her pain is gone. Breathe."

[...]

"You may have bad dreams for a time," warned the kindly man. "Her father beat her so often and so brutally that she was never truly free of pain or fear until she came to us."

And even objects can remember:

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"The glamor, aye." In the black iron fetter about his wrist, the ruby seemed to pulse. He tapped it with the edge of his blade. The steel made a faint click against the stone. "I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even through the iron. Soft as a woman's kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my dreams it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth. Every day I think how easy it would be to pry it out, and every day I don't. Must I wear the bloody bones as well?"

[...]

When the flames had licked at Rattleshirt, the ruby at her throat had grown so hot that she had feared her own flesh might start to smoke and blacken. Thankfully Lord Snow had delivered her from that agony with his arrows. Whilst Stannis had seethed at the defiance, she had shuddered with relief.

Is Rattleshirt now literally inside the ruby?

We see that when one's soul is transferred, either in another body or their own dead one, over time they forget.

And we see that objects can seemingly hold onto memories if not literally hold onto souls.

And then we have the story of Nissa Nissa, whose soul is said to have literally gone into the sword.

Whoever is in Daenerys, be it Ashara or another which spent time in Dorne for some time, distances and time frames are seemingly not too much of an issue.

And note how when Varamir died, he ended up in the trees, seemingly forever part of them if Jojen is right, losing himself into a whole. But could it be that when one is "burned" this prevents their soul from going in the trees (no blood going into the earth for the trees to drink), and allows them to go freely or under someone's control into something else? Could it be that the reason the shadow baby grew into a thing with Stannis' face is because it was akin to that process, but using only a fragment of his soul?

The bit about Rattleshirt shows us how burning one to death could allow one to be transferred into something else.

Where is Dawn? Why is there no new sword of the morning? Is it broken? Is it no longer alive with light?

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Bullrout said:
  • Ashara is Septa Lemore

Septa Lemore is Wenda the White Fawn or a simple Septa.

7 minutes ago, Bullrout said:
  • Elissa Farman is Quaithe

Quaithe is Shiera Seastar.

7 minutes ago, Bullrout said:
  • Daenerys Targaryen is Azor Ahai

Azor Ahai is Jon Snow.

Edited by Lilac & Gooseberries

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15 minutes ago, Egged said:

Where is Dawn? Why is there no new sword of the morning? Is it broken? Is it no longer alive with light?

Quote

 

What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?

Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Valyria_related_Subjects

 

It's not broken is still at Starfall we know that she will remain there until a new worthy of her Dayne knight is born.

 

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4 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Elissa would had been 271 years old in 300 AL and she had no connection with magic.

I believe Elissa is Quaithe.  Who has more than a connection to magic.  Quaithe has magic. 

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Just now, Bullrout said:

I believe Elissa is Quaithe.  Who has more than a connection to magic.  Quaithe has magic. 

Can I ask for any text to support your claim? Quaithe has magic Elissa had no connection with magic at all.

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Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Can I ask for any text to support your claim? Quaithe has magic Elissa had no connection with magic at all.

If you will recall, Elissa's Sunchaser was seen in Asshai.  Elissa most likely traveled far before reaching Asshai, the land of magic.  She had years to learn magic.  If Brynden Rivers found a way to extend his life, I think Elissa could have done the same in Asshai. 

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3 minutes ago, Bullrout said:

If you will recall, Elissa's Sunchaser was seen in Asshai.  Elissa most likely traveled far before reaching Asshai, the land of magic.  She had years to learn magic.  If Brynden Rivers found a way to extend his life, I think Elissa could have done the same in Asshai. 

You know who else have been as far as Asshai? Corlys Velaryon. 

Bloodraven is literally a demigod not some alley warlock.

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Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

You know who else have been as far as Asshai? Corlys Velaryon. 

Bloodraven is literally a demigod not some alley warlock.

Bloodraven a demigod!!!!!!!  He was a man who played with magic and later extended his life, deliberately or accidentally, with the tree.  Elissa Farman was a woman who hungered for knowledge and travel.  The Sunchaser ending up in Asshai is a clue of where she ended up.  Asshai is a city where magic is practiced and studied without restrictions.  It is not hard to see where Elissa learned her craft.  It explains the interest Quaithe has with Daenerys Targaryen's dragons.  Maybe she believes these came from the three stolen eggs. 

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Just now, Bullrout said:

Bloodraven a demigod!!!!!!!  He was a man who played with magic and later extended his life, deliberately or accidentally, with the tree.

Bloodraven is a demigod. He comes from a lineage connected with the First men. He was practising magic well before getting his weirwood throne. He has powers that are far beyond simple magic.

1 minute ago, Bullrout said:

Elissa Farman was a woman who hungered for knowledge and travel.  The Sunchaser ending up in Asshai is a clue of where she ended up.  Asshai is a city where magic is practiced and studied without restrictions.  It is not hard to see where Elissa learned her craft.  It explains the interest Quaithe has with Daenerys Targaryen's dragons.  Maybe she believes these came from the three stolen eggs. 

None of those is a clue that Elissa was in any way connected with magic and knew how to practise magic. Let alone being alive at the age of almost 300 years.

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