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Mrstrategy

Why did Moat cailin fall to iron born in war of five kings

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Why did the northern garrison failed to hold moat Cailin against the ironborn lead by victarion greyjoy?undermaned,bad leadetship,bad condition of Moat Cailin?

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Garrison had only couple hundred men when Victarion had couple thousand. 

Moat Cailin did not have a wall.

Dustins/Rysswells were passive and allowed it to happen.

However most important reason was the PLOT. Or sadistic creator of Planetos wanted that to happen.

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Somehow this fortification that stops EVERYTHING from the south has no defense against the North. Guess the Northmen don't bother keeping watch that way either. Not like they were at war with a power with a large fleet in Lannisport or anything.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Somehow this fortification that stops EVERYTHING from the south has no defense against the North. Guess the Northmen don't bother keeping watch that way either. Not like they were at war with a power with a large fleet in Lannisport or anything.

Robb kinda forgot about the Lannister Fleet.

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1 minute ago, Canon Claude said:

To be fair, so did the Lannisters.

So did GRRM for all the times it's mentioned.

Oh well I guess Tywin never rebuilt it. Must have forgotten about it too.

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11 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:

Why did the northern garrison failed to hold moat Cailin against the ironborn lead by victarion greyjoy?undermaned,bad leadetship,bad condition of Moat Cailin?

They sailed up the Fever River and took it from the north, where it is most vulnerable. But I question MC's fortitude even from an attack from the south. No one has tried to take it for thousands of years, back when the relatively small marsh and river kings were in power. Much of it has sunk into the mud now. Against the might of the Iron Throne with backing from six of the seven houses, outfitted with catapults flinging wildfire? I'll bet it could be taken from the south, but it would still be costly.

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11 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Against the might of the Iron Throne with backing from six of the seven houses, outfitted with catapults flinging wildfire?

Wildfire is more likely to blow themselves up.

 

 

Edited by saltedmalted

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15 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

To be fair, so did the Lannisters.

Not really. It would have been idiotic to send them away from the Westerland coast during a multi front war with the Ironborn so close. It is also the reason why he does not send for the Lannisport or Kings Watch Cloaks when he is need of reinforcements.

GRRM credits his readers with some common sense.

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20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not really. It would have been idiotic to send them away from the Westerland coast during a multi front war with the Ironborn so close. It is also the reason why he does not send for the Lannisport or Kings Watch Cloaks when he is need of reinforcements.

GRRM credits his readers with some common sense.

I agree with this, but i also think if they don't have any fortifications from the city (archers etc) protecting their ships now at port then even a big Lannister fleet is in danger from the Ironborn at sea.

 

That being said, that which works once, rarely should twice in such a short span of time. Tywin would've learnt his lesson from the Greyjoy brothers.

 

edit: once Balon had attacked the North in numerous strategic places, that may have been a good time to send out ships for whatever idea comes to mind. Though the war turned pretty quickly after the Ironborn attacked the North so there probably wasn't any need.

Edited by lrresistable

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On 2/26/2021 at 11:17 PM, saltedmalted said:

Wildfire is more likely to blow themselves up.

 

 

The defenders of King's Landing handled it pretty well on the Blackwater.

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Posted (edited)
On 2/26/2021 at 6:13 PM, John Suburbs said:

They sailed up the Fever River and took it from the north, where it is most vulnerable. But I question MC's fortitude even from an attack from the south. No one has tried to take it for thousands of years, back when the relatively small marsh and river kings were in power. Much of it has sunk into the mud now. Against the might of the Iron Throne with backing from six of the seven houses, outfitted with catapults flinging wildfire? I'll bet it could be taken from the south, but it would still be costly.

Yep it is a chokepoint, extremely difficult to take from the south, yet Victarion attacked from the West using ships.

Maybe the place, like Bloody Gate is meant to refer historical chokepoints as was Thermopylae, which Persians won with heavy losses only when  they used path  through mountains to flank the defenders. 

Robb Stark also had a plan of retaking the place:

Quote

"You cannot mean to attack up the causeway, Your Grace," said Galbart Glover. "The approaches are too narrow. There is no way to deploy. No one has ever taken the Moat

."
"From the south," said Robb. "But if we can attack from the north and west simultaneously, and take the ironmen in the rear while they are beating off what they think is my main thrust up the causeway, then we have a chance. Once I link up with Lord Bolton and the Freys, I will have more than twelve thousand men. I mean to divide them into three battles and start up the causeway a half-day apart. If the Greyjoys have eyes south of the Neck, they will see my whole strength rushing headlong at Moat Cailin.
 
"Roose Bolton will have the rearguard, while I command the center. Greatjon, you shall lead the van against Moat Cailin. Your attack must be so fierce that the ironborn have no leisure to wonder if anyone is creeping down on them from the north."

 

Edited by Eltharion21

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9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The defenders of King's Landing handled it pretty well on the Blackwater.

The substance did not have to be transported across Westeros. They were very lucky that thw wildfire didn't light them up.

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18 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

The substance did not have to be transported across Westeros. They were very lucky that thw wildfire didn't light them up.

Yes, getting it there would be a problem, as Aegon IV found out in Dorne. But not impossible. Even without it, however, the armies and engines of the 7K are vastly larger and more powerful than anything the mud or river kings would have thrown against MC. So the idea that it is so formidable from the south is iffy at best. No one's tried for a good 5,000 years or more -- that's longer than the pyramids have been standing.

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6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Even without it, however, the armies and engines of the 7K are vastly larger and more powerful than anything the mud or river kings would have thrown against MC.

Westeros isn't a technologically improving land. The oldest and most impressive feats of engineering are old. 

 

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Moat Cailin once had 20 towers and a curtain wall as high as the one at Winterfell. It's mostly ruins now with no wall and just 3 towers still standing, one of which is the Drunkard's Tower which in on the verge of falling over. It's only useful because those 3 towers overlook the causeway from the south. It doesn't sound formidable from any direction other than the south.

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15 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

Westeros isn't a technologically improving land. The oldest and most impressive feats of engineering are old. 

 

Yes it is. When MC was built, men fought with bronze and iron. Now they have steel. The roads are better as well. The kingsroad, in fact, is only about 200 years old.

And as @Groo just pointed out, much of the original castle has sunk into the swamp. It's still formidable, sure, but not nearly as it once was.

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7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Now they have steel. The roads are better as well. The kingsroad, in fact, is only about 200 years old.

Kingsroad was no great feat of engineering. Th bronze-steel comparions doesn't work if we are comparing siege work.

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And as @Groo just pointed out, much of the original castle has sunk into the swamp. It's still formidable, sure, but not nearly as it once was.

The swamp is what makes it formidable.

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