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Alyn Oakenfist

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31 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The problem isn't that they're cousins, the problem is that they grew up and love each other as siblings.

I understand this but think like that; Jonerys says Jonarya worst than Jonerys because of what you just said. They think Jon and Dany doesnt know they are aunt-nephew, so it is more acceptable but it is not. 

"Believing" cannot destroy a truth. Not knowing does not legitimize your relationship with your aunt. Incest is incest. There is no such thing as less incest or more incest. Knowing or not knowing something does not change this fact. Believing does not make your cousin your own sibling. 

According to GRRM, this love will cause them pain because they think each other as siblings in the first stage because it is not the right thing. But when they find out who Jon's parents are, they'll be relieved. Why is that? Because they will know that they are cousins and that will set them free. This love issue will prevent them from seeing each other as siblings. So this level of consciousness will change.

They will probably be strangers when they see each other again anyway because they both grew up and changed.

Whatever Jon does, Ned is not Jon's father, and the Stark children are not Jon's brothers. We do not like this, but when we adopt a child, that child is not our own child, we do not have blood ties.

Of course, what I am saying is perhaps again something that can change depending on the cultural or personal point of view. In that; For a person, blood ties can be very trivial. Only the emotional bond established and how people see each other can be the only important thing. If you look at it like that, it will undoubtedly be unacceptable to you in any way, I respect it.

To be honest, if I heard that two cousins got married in the same house thinking they were brothers and sisters, It would be weird to me at first stage. But after for a while, I couldn't accept incest because they don't have blood ties, and that's why I wouldn't oppose this relationship. That's why I look at the JonArya theory this way.

Edited by YeniAy_Ottoman

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12 minutes ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

To be honest, if I heard that two cousins got married in the same house thinking they were brothers and sisters, It would be weird to me at first stage. But after for a while, I couldn't accept incest because they don't have blood ties, and that's why I wouldn't oppose this relationship. That's why I look at the JonArya theory this way.

I mean fair enough, but even considering that, there's still:

A. the age difference. Jon is/was 17 at the end of ADWD. Arya is 11.

B. the amount of sibling love between them. Like they have the most enduring sibling love out of all the Starks, and to even imagine that as sexual... yuck

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean fair enough, but even considering that, there's still:

A. the age difference. Jon is/was 17 at the end of ADWD. Arya is 11.

B. the amount of sibling love between them. Like they have the most enduring sibling love out of all the Starks, and to even imagine that as sexual... yuck

A. 6 years age difference is no real problem for a working relationship. Not today and especially not in a medieval society where it was common to mary 40+ish widowers to 15yo girls.

B. You have to remember that last time they saw each other Arya was way too young to have any kind of sexual feelings. Vice versa Jon couldn´t have feelings for his "baby sister". Now I think Arya will come of age pretty soon and the whole relationship between them will have a major overhaul.

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Just now, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

A. 6 years age difference is no real problem for a working relationship. Not today and especially not in a medieval society where it was common to mary 40+ish widowers to 15yo girls.

It's not a problem when the two partners are mature. It is a problem when one is 11 and the other 17.

1 minute ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

B. You have to remember that last time they saw each other Arya was way too young to have any kind of sexual feelings. Vice versa Jon couldn´t have feelings for his "baby sister". Now I think Arya will come of age pretty soon and the whole relationship between them will have a major overhaul.

Please no. It's hard enough to stomach that Jonerys will probably be a thing, I really don't need this cursed shit.

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5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It's not a problem when the two partners are mature. It is a problem when one is 11 and the other 17.

Please no. It's hard enough to stomach that Jonerys will probably be a thing, I really don't need this cursed shit.

Maybe in TWOW, Arya starts thinking how sexy Jon is.

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4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Please no. It's hard enough to stomach that Jonerys will probably be a thing, I really don't need this cursed shit.

I kinda get the feeling you don´t like the Jonrya ship. :D

But face it, many people do like it and I sincerely hope GRRM is one of them.

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Just now, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

But face it, many people do like it and I sincerely hope GRRM is one of them.

We know he is, or at least he was, that's what makes it so awful.

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31 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

We know he is, or at least he was, that's what makes it so awful.

Arya probably has a dream about mating with Jon in the guise of wolves, as per The Skin Trade.

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10 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

The Starks are not in the brother sister incest thing.

That's not much of an argument, if we're honest, given that Jon is a Targ and their actually cousins, and we know for a fact the Starks are into that.

They're the second most inbred family in Westeros by all accounts (well if we don't consider the ruling "Baratheons")

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3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That's not much of an argument, if we're honest, given that Jon is a Targ and their actually cousins, and we know for a fact the Starks are into that.

They're the second most inbred family in Westeros by all accounts (well if we don't consider the ruling "Baratheons")

Quote

A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.

The Free Folk are  right about it, look where incest lead the Targaryens. Arya is Jon's sister, they may not have the same parents but they are siblings.

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Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

The Free Folk are  right about it, look where incest lead the Targaryens. Arya is Jon's sister, they may not have the same parents but they are siblings.

So I think it's safe to say that inbreeding seems to have fuck all consequences in this world.

Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are all healthy.

None of the Targs had any weird physical traits

And so on and so forth. There seem to be very few consequences to incest in this world.

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16 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So I think it's safe to say that inbreeding seems to have fuck all consequences in this world.

Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are all healthy.

None of the Targs had any weird physical traits

And so on and so forth. There seem to be very few consequences to incest in this world.

Jon was the son of Ned and Lyanna, and it did him no harm.

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Just now, SeanF said:

Jon was the son of Ned and Lyanna, and it did him no harm.

Wasn't it Benjen and Lyanna?

Or is Benjen actually Ned?

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27 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So I think it's safe to say that inbreeding seems to have fuck all consequences in this world.

Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are all healthy.

None of the Targs had any weird physical traits

And so on and so forth. There seem to be very few consequences to incest in this world.

In all fairness it took the Habsburgs several hundred years to have just a few members with incest related issues. We have seen only some of the Targaryens and there were several Targaryens with apparent mental issues. Maybe in this world the incest takes a toll on someone’s mental rather than the physical health.

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Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

In all fairness it took the Habsburgs several hundred years to have just a few members with incest related issues. We have seen only some of the Targaryens and there were several Targaryens with apparent mental issues. Maybe in this world the incest takes a toll on someone’s mental rather than the physical health.

I mean the Hapsburgs never did the nasty like the Targaryens. The worst they did was avuncular marriages.

From what I can recall Charles the IInd had a similar inbreeding coefficient with Dany, and one was considered a miracle for living till 40 while the other is perfectly healthy. Somehow...

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Well, GRRM has already abandoned his original incestuous plan, so we shouldn't arguing about it.

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13 hours ago, SeanF said:

I expect Sansa will have a crisis of conscience about something that LF has made her an accomplice too.  As well as making her his surrogate daughter and intended lover, he wants to make her as corrupt as he is.

Same here. Littlefinger is Sansa's dark mentor and a source of temptation for her, a role similar to Bloodraven or the Faceless Men. Sansa's ark going forward, like Arya's, is to remember and embrace her Stark identity, to ask herself "what would Father do?" Littlefinger wants Sansa to become like him, but Sansa is Ned's daughter, not his, and that will be his undoing.

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As for Jonarya, no. George abandond that plotline for good reason, and instead introduced Gendry as the most likely match for Arya. I know some folks will hate to hear this, but the show got the final pairings pretty much right. Probably because that was one the few things they took specifically from George. 

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