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DCEU: The Hare's Regret


JGP

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Right. But again, @Heartofice, black Supermen exist in the comics. Deciding that now is the time to make a film featuring one is as fine as Nick Fury's second screen version being played by Samuel L. Jackson based on a then-very-recent new Marvel alternate reality (the Ultimates universe). [The first screen version was played by David Hasselhoff in a backdoor pilot written by David Goyer.]

 

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10 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Ok so we are finally getting to it, you aren't really doing any of this out of some sort of colour blind principle at all. 

::shrug 

 

I don't know what you're talking about, and i don't think you know either. 

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3 minutes ago, Ran said:

Right. But again, @Heartofice, black Supermen exist in the comics. Deciding that now is the time to make a film featuring one is as fine as Nick Fury's second screen version being played by Samuel L. Jackson based on a then-very-recent new Marvel alternate reality (the Ultimates universe). [The first screen version was played by David Hasselhoff in a backdoor pilot written by David Goyer.]

 

Sure, but that wasn't the point that was being made. I've already talked about the alternate versions of superman, there is also a version of superman who is a robot. 

Relic's point, as far as I can acertain, is that we shouldn't even notice Supermans race, that we should be able to just ignore it and cast anyone to play his character. Except that it's now pretty clear he wasn't being genuine about it. 

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18 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Relic's point, as far as I can acertain, is that we shouldn't even notice Supermans race, that we should be able to just ignore it and cast anyone to play his character. Except that it's now pretty clear he wasn't being genuine about it. 

 My "point" is that to me Superman's skin color doesn't matter at all. And it shouldnt matter to anyone (but does). Also, if Superman was black and people like you would cry about it I would consider that a win. That was my point. 

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35 minutes ago, Relic said:

 My "point" is that to me Superman's skin color doesn't matter at all. And it shouldnt matter to anyone (but does). Also, if Superman was black and people like you would cry about it I would consider that a win. That was my point. 

Right, but does any characters skin colour matter? Does it matter if a character doesn’t look like their comic book counterpart at all? You’re very fuzzy on this.

If as you say, your only principle is that as long as you can annoy racists then job done, well that’s up to you. But then you seem to be coming from the assumption that the only people who could possibly be annoyed by changing Superman’s race.. are racists. It would then follow I’m sure, from your perspective that complaining about that fact would simply confirm to you that someone is in fact a racist. 

You don’t see where there might be an issue there? Especially considering the uproar mentioned unthread about changing the tone of superman’s cloak?

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The thing I think most about regarding Superman is that I subscribe to the view that Superman is a distinctly Jewish creation. Michael Chabon made this line of thinking about the character clear in interviews surrounding The Adventures of Kavalier and Clay (and within the book itself, in which two young Jews create a hero, the Escapist, who has the power to fight back against oppression and villainy), which helped popularize the reading among literati who otherwise could care less about comic books, but he was inspired by earlier scholarly and critical assessments regarding this. There's too many very obvious parallels between the background for Superman and the experience of Jewish immigrants, as well as basic stuff like "El" (in Kal-El) being the Hebrew word for "God", or the child set adrift in a basket on a river rocket through space and found and raised among the native Egyptians  native humans, and simply the whole passing-but-apart narrative.

So that's what I think about with a black Superman. I am more than fine with it, especially in the multiverse context, because there are definite parallels you can draw between the black experience and the Jewish experience.

At the same time, I don't forsee the cinematic black Superman taking over the Superman franchise going forward, no more than the Miles Morales-Spider-Man has taken over the Spider-Man franchise. The hero envisioned by two Jewish kids from Cleveland back in the 1930s will always be the iconic visual depiction and the comics, shows, and films will always revert to it no matter how much they experiment with other depictions.

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9 hours ago, Relic said:

I'm not sure what your point here is. Are some people going to be upset if superman is portrayed by a black actor? Yes. Obviously there will be people like that.

And what I'm saying is fuck them. Let them cry. 



I fully agree with the last sentiment and your later argument with HoI but all he said initially said was he didn't think WB wasn't gonna take that step and you basically said it wasn't a step. That's all I was disagreeing with.


We're on the same page regarding racists, and the tears thereof.

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Can I just say that among the Elseworld Supermen I REALLY would love to see more of the Gods and Monsters Superman Hernan Guerra? That one is absolutely terrific and I would love to see more of him and I am so mad this his Justice League movie didn't get enough attention to warrant a continuation!

Basically his deal is that he is the son of Zod who hijacked Kal El's rocket and Hernan struggles a lot to cope with that legacy. He is also raised by Mexican immigrants and therefore sees the USA from its worst, giving him an extremely cynical outlook about authorities and what the country stands for. He also happened to have accidentally crippled his adoptive sister as a child when he first discovered his powers and had to suppress them for a long time out of fear. By the time of the Gods and Monsters movie he's trying to do good, but wonders whether that means helping people or take over the world. It's not helping that his extremely ruthless fighting style and arrogance have alienated him from just about everybody. But by the end of the movie he decides to adopt a no-kill rule and improve his image, trying to become a more traditional superhero.

I guess what I want to say is... changing the background of Superman works if you make the effort to highlight all the consequences of that.

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1 hour ago, Toth said:

Elseworld

This is something else DC could really use, some clear branding on what is DCCU and what isn’t. If they had an established series of films called Elseworld it’d clear up so much early confusion on all these projects.

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57 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

This is something else DC could really use, some clear branding on what is DCCU and what isn’t. If they had an established series of films called Elseworld it’d clear up so much early confusion on all these projects.



They were planning this at one point. Not sure if the plan is still to bring it in post-Flashpoint.


 

 

2 hours ago, Toth said:

Can I just say that among the Elseworld Supermen I REALLY would love to see more of the Gods and Monsters Superman Hernan Guerra? That one is absolutely terrific and I would love to see more of him and I am so mad this his Justice League movie didn't get enough attention to warrant a continuation!

Basically his deal is that he is the son of Zod who hijacked Kal El's rocket and Hernan struggles a lot to cope with that legacy. He is also raised by Mexican immigrants and therefore sees the USA from its worst, giving him an extremely cynical outlook about authorities and what the country stands for. He also happened to have accidentally crippled his adoptive sister as a child when he first discovered his powers and had to suppress them for a long time out of fear. By the time of the Gods and Monsters movie he's trying to do good, but wonders whether that means helping people or take over the world. It's not helping that his extremely ruthless fighting style and arrogance have alienated him from just about everybody. But by the end of the movie he decides to adopt a no-kill rule and improve his image, trying to become a more traditional superhero.

 



Sounds cool but in terms of the 'trying to be a hero but might take over the world' thing he's probably too close to Black Adam for DC to commit to him while that project's still rolling.

 

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I'm absolutely fine with a black superman especially if Michael B Jordan gets the role (the guy is a comic/manga geek and he has the chops to carry it off). I still think the main problem with the character is his power levels in that it's always a bit of an issue coming up with tension and repetitive if it's someone with kryptonite. That said, they always miss out on interesting villains that could work eg parasite, Brainiac or Metallo. Or do Manchester Black and the elite which is still the best Superman story in 20 years as a statement of why the character is still relevant - it'd actually play well as a refutation of shows like "The boys".

I think the problem is WB seems reluctant/embarrassed about an all american hero as if there's no audience for that. Which is a bit strange given that most of the MCU heroes fit that mould. You can have characters who are dark, you just don't need to make superman dark (which is why the elite story works so well). I guess Shazam was more the way they should probably approach the character.  

 

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1 hour ago, red snow said:

I still think the main problem with the character is his power levels

I always feel this argument is miscontrued tbh. Superman doesn't win all the time because he's inherently overpowered, there are lots of potential opponents equal to him including the ones you named, and he's far from the only hero with that kind of power level. He coasts like that because of the combination of popularity shielding (realistically Batman and Wolverine are essentially equally undefeatable) and writers lacking imagination for how to deal with it.

But yeah Superman should either be having his good nature conflict with the darkness of the world- in a meta way like that Manchester Black story or more character-based like Kingdom Come - or just be a massive bundle of loopy joy, like All-Star Superman for example.

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55 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I always feel this argument is miscontrued tbh. Superman doesn't win all the time because he's inherently overpowered, there are lots of potential opponents equal to him including the ones you named, and he's far from the only hero with that kind of power level. He coasts like that because of the combination of popularity shielding (realistically Batman and Wolverine are essentially equally undefeatable) and writers lacking imagination for how to deal with it.

But yeah Superman should either be having his good nature conflict with the darkness of the world- in a meta way like that Manchester Black story or more character-based like Kingdom Come - or just be a massive bundle of loopy joy, like All-Star Superman for example.

Also, Superman’s power can easily be dialled to whatever you want it to be. It’s not like Spider-Man where he either climbs walls or he doesn’t, Superman’s primary feat is strength, which is a sliding scale. There’s no reason you can’t say he can lift (say) a tonne, but not much more than that. Not a whole boat or a continent.

I’m more interested in his invulnerability, that’s more of an interesting issue to play with in terms of how villains get around it. It also makes his determinism more his main thing; even if he can’t defeat someone, he’ll just keep coming at them because you can’t completely incapacitate him.

But anyway, my faith in DC is rock bottom now so it’s highly unlikely I’d see this in the cinema, unless it was getting really rave reviews.

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On 3/5/2021 at 11:53 PM, polishgenius said:

Sounds cool but in terms of the 'trying to be a hero but might take over the world' thing he's probably too close to Black Adam for DC to commit to him while that project's still rolling.

Well first: Is Black Adam trying to take over the world? As far as I remember Black Adam's thing is that his single-mindedly focused on furthering the interests of his own country. Nothing more, nothing less.

Secondly: The "take over the world" thing is basically Superman being so disillusioned by how rotten the world is that he thinks he should take over and improve things by force. Of course this ties into a serious nurture vs. nature debate about how much of that ambition comes from being General Zod's offspring and how much is his own cynicism brought to the table.

The other aspect is the immigrant story that made him extremely hostile and dismissive towards authorities and also caused him to do his heroics as swiftly and mercilessly as possible, thinking that every hesitation to blast bad guys with his eye lasers is just begging for trouble. "If I deliver justice on a heavy hand, it's because I have been on the receiving hand."

It's interesting that his arc revolves around reflecting on why he had become this bitter and becoming a better man that people could look up to instead of fearing. Also not a very Black Adam thing, given that that one wholeheartedly embraces his tyranny.

 

Coming back to the topic at hand, I did take a bit of a look into scenes from this new Superman show after being curious what the buzz is about. Aaaand.... well, call me surprised. Granted, I already really loved Tyler Hoechlin's take on Superman when he was on Supergirl. Heck, Supergirl's casting itself was always top-notch and I only endured till season 2 of it because Melissa Benoist has an amazing on-screen presence. If Supergirl had been just Kara and Barry sitting on a couch eating ice cream, I would have watched it, but unfortunately the writing was so abysmal and cringe worthy watching the show became a chore.

Similarly Tyler Hoechlin was in a strange situation. He absolutely nailed Superman's positivity and big blue boy scout attitude. But unfortunately Supergirl kept on shitting on his character for the sake of making Kara look 'good' (though in my book she sounded almost abusive in the way she put regularly put him down for no fucking reason). Good thing Hoechlin got his own show. And while it's unfortunate that they are using a part of their impressive budget to ape Zack Snyder cinematography, Hoechlin still manages to punch somewhat through the edginess. It's really surprisingly enjoyable so far, with the small-scale drama being laser focused on the Kent household without making the entire story dependant on it. But of course just like with Supergirl I remain curious whether the writers manage to not loose steam and fall back into dumb teen drama territory.

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13 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I always feel this argument is miscontrued tbh. Superman doesn't win all the time because he's inherently overpowered, there are lots of potential opponents equal to him including the ones you named, and he's far from the only hero with that kind of power level. He coasts like that because of the combination of popularity shielding (realistically Batman and Wolverine are essentially equally undefeatable) and writers lacking imagination for how to deal with it.

But yeah Superman should either be having his good nature conflict with the darkness of the world- in a meta way like that Manchester Black story or more character-based like Kingdom Come - or just be a massive bundle of loopy joy, like All-Star Superman for example.

In a way the Flash is much more problematic in terms of power but I often put that down to part of the reason he's not as popular as Batman, Wolverine and Spider-man who I agree still always win but it's usually harder for them to win and more understandable how opponents could force them to use their wits/resilience.

All star superman is definitely another way to go. I don't really like Mr Mxytplk (because I always forget how to spell his name) but I could imagine Noah Hawley having a blast with that kind of approach.

Given the last 12 months I think a positive hero like Superman could be quite welcome.

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5 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

Um... the Snyder Cut has apparently leaked on HBO Max, it's playing instead of the Tom & Jerry movie: 

 That's.... kinda hilarious. 

That's funny, I always thought people leaked stuff on purpose. Is someone going to lose their job for "accidentally" replacing a PG film with an R rated one? How do the producers of the Tom and Jerry film feel about this I wonder? 

And the leak was not sorted put in "minutes". It was up for over an hour. I accidentally stumbled on a clip on twitter featuring Martian Manhunter, thank you very much.

Anyway, I thought this was pretty cool.

 

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1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

That's funny, I always thought people leaked stuff on purpose. Is someone going to lose their job for "accidentally" replacing a PG film with an R rated one? How do the producers of the Tom and Jerry film feel about this I wonder? 

And the leak was not sorted put in "minutes". It was up for over an hour. I accidentally stumbled on a clip on twitter featuring Martian Manhunter, thank you very much.

Anyway, I thought this was pretty cool.

 

MM is in Snyder Cut? Is that a spoiler?

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4 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

The clip was the spoiler, not his existence in the film. 

Well that is also a spoiler too of a sorts I guess even though the director publicly announced it.

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