DCEU: The Hare's Regret

[Rhom]

I just happened to catch the first episode of Superman and Lois in its entirety tonight.  It really was good and in some ways checks the “Whats his life like?” boxes that you’re asking about.

I really did like it.  Don’t know what the rest of the season is like, but felt like it was wrapping up some of the interesting family dynamics a bit too neatly for the first episode.

[Slurktan]

17 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

BvS implied that Batman wasn't always the murderer and torturer we see in that movie, but he got beat up and lost enough to become cruel. The bat signal being there signifies that the police were working with him in the past, and it's proven again in JL. So Superman may have been aware of Batman, and didn't feel to get involved with taking out the criminals. But in BvS Clark decided that the Batman was becoming dangerous.

Also, Superman's MO is to save people who are in mortal peril, not to play detective and hunt down criminals. 

Also Superman moves to Metropolis at the end of MOS so when the Batsignal goes up in BVS its implied thats the first time its been on in a long time hence Superman wouldn't have seen it before. 

In terms of comics, it is incredibly stupid and just goes along with the age old problem of Batman being useless comparatively as Gotham is his turf and Superman isn't allowed to just fix it in 5 seconds like he could.   You could argue that because Batman doesn't allow Superman (or Flash or WW etc) to clean up Gotham he is pretty much guilty of thousands if not tens of thousands of cases of manslaughter.  Batman really is a piece of human dogshit as presented in the comics.

[Corvinus85]

17 hours ago, Rhom said:

I just happened to catch the first episode of Superman and Lois in its entirety tonight.  It really was good and in some ways checks the “Whats his life like?” boxes that you’re asking about.

I really did like it.  Don’t know what the rest of the season is like, but felt like it was wrapping up some of the interesting family dynamics a bit too neatly for the first episode.

It's still mostly a CW show that looks better, and is helped by being less episodic than the other CW shows. But unfortunately, they've only released 5 episodes so far, because production had to halt last year due to Covid, and the rest of the season will resume in May. I hope it doesn't kill its momentum.

[mormont]

The idea that Superman could easily fix Gotham is somewhat undermined by the demonstrable fact that he can't fix Metropolis.

[Toth]

The problem with Gotham lies far deeper than the costumed lunatics. I always got the impression that those were always ever the tip of the iceberg of corruption, one that specifically arose in response to a masked vigilante starting to punch mobsters into hospitals. Superman may inarguably be more effective at punching people than Batman and can (and occasionally does) respond when the city gets hit by a severe disaster, but what then? It isn't exactly his MO to track down and bully corrupt politicians and cops into submission like Batman does. Superman can only ever respond to surface level threats, but the shithole that is Gotham needs to be thoroughly cleansed and rebuilt from the inside, something Superman would be too careful to approach out of fear of becoming Zod. Ironically I'm also thinking Bruce Wayne should have far more influence in bringing about lasting change than Batman ever did, but logically he would reasonably worry to get his civilian identity marked and murdered if he makes an overt dive into politics. Not to mention his obsession with stamping out crime one broken nose at the time also restricts his world view somewhat.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

19 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

BvS implied that Batman wasn't always the murderer and torturer we see in that movie, but he got beat up and lost enough to become cruel.

It did a hell of a lot more than that. 

This is a Batman that isn't just motivated by the murder of his parents. He's been in the game long enough to see his "adopted son" brutally murdered by his arch enemy, see half a city destroyed in an alien invasion and god knows what else.

His turn is telegraphed to the audience several times. The voiceover at the beginning of the film; "There was a time above, a time before... what falls is fallen." Could he be talking about himself? Also displaying the tattered Robin suit, the conversation with Alfred about what "turns good men cruel", the man in the Gotham apartment with the, "there's a 'new mean' in him", etc. Maybe they should have had a PSA at the beginning of the film.

The funniest part is that some of the people who seemed to be most offended at this version of "murder" Batman would often hold the Burton/Keaton Batman up as an exemplar. Those people need to go back and rewatch those films.

       

[Toth]

24 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

This is a Batman that isn't just motivated by the murder of his parents. He's been in the game long enough to see his "adopted son" brutally murdered by his arch enemy, see half a city destroyed in an alien invasion and god knows what else.

I always got that this is the idea, but it should be noted that at the end of the day Zack Snyder is and has always been a childish edgelord. Giving Murder Batman a reason to be Murder Batman actually makes it worse as long as it ignores the rather massive repercussions this would have for Batman's psyche and his role in Gotham and the wider DCEU. Murder Batman would definitely never go out of his way to found the Justice League just for starters. I like Affleck as Batman, he sure has the presence down, but he seems far too mentally healthy in between action scenes for a Batman who got broken by Jason's death.

I'd rather point at stuff like Mask of the Phantasm, the pilot of Batman Beyond and Under the Red Hood (which the Snyderverse is clearly referencing) in why Batman's no kill rule is so important. Heck, even The Dark Knight alluded to it with its whole "One bad day" thing. Batman doesn't refrain from killing because he's such a law abiding citizen, he's refraining from killing because thanks to his obsession with revenge he's just one step away from becoming a murderous lunatic himself. That's why this is a line he cannot cross under any circumstances.

Ironically, when I rewatched a few Batman Beyond episodes a few years ago I noticed that Terry, his mentally significantly better adjusted successor under the cowl, has no No Kill rule himself and frequently kills in self-defense, something about which Bruce seems not very happy about, but lets it slide as long as Terry isn't killing for personal satisfaction (as he tries with his arch enemy Blight). So the No Kill rule is really more there to protect himself than anything else.

[Soylent Brown]

There's no reason why Superman can't use his super-hearing to uncover systemic corruption and whathaveyou, other than his writers would prefer he didn't.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

There's no reason why Superman can't use his super-hearing to uncover systemic corruption and whathaveyou, other than his writers would prefer he didn't.

by that logic there would be no crime in the world. Supes would ear people planing crimes and stop them...

[Toth]

3 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

There's no reason why Superman can't use his super-hearing to uncover systemic corruption and whathaveyou, other than his writers would prefer he didn't.

And then what? I mean sure, I can imagine a fun story about him writing amazing investigative articles about these people as Clark Kent... and then they would still go scot-free because the whole system is rigged in their favor. Heck, he'd run into the exact same problem that he has in beating Lex Luthor and his army of lawyers! XD

[Soylent Brown]

1 minute ago, Toth said:

And then what? I mean sure, I can imagine a fun story about him writing amazing investigative articles about these people as Clark Kent... and then they would still go scot-free because the whole system is rigged in their favor. Heck, he'd run into the exact same problem that he has in beating Lex Luthor and his army of lawyers! XD

Are people not likely to believe him as Superman? Is there any reason why he can't hover outside whatever dodgy meetings are taking place with parabolic mics and recording equipment?

The problem is the stories are stupid (and the American legal system is utterly utterly broken, of course.)

[Toth]

7 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

Are people not likely to believe him as Superman? Is there any reason why he can't hover outside whatever dodgy meetings are taking place with parabolic mics and recording equipment?

The problem is the stories are stupid (and the American legal system is utterly utterly broken, of course.)

The same people that voted Luthor president after he tried to blow up the city a dozen times?

[Soylent Brown]

20 minutes ago, Toth said:

The same people that voted Luthor president after he tried to blow up the city a dozen times?

As I say, silly stories. If we were to just try to look at it from the point of view of what the protagonists are capable of, and what realistically the response from everyone else would be, though, then Superman would fix everything and it would be a super-boring story. (But more realistic!)

[Toth]

28 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

As I say, silly stories. If we were to just try to look at it from the point of view of what the protagonists are capable of, and what realistically the response from everyone else would be, though, then Superman would fix everything and it would be a super-boring story. (But more realistic!)

You do remember who the last president of the United States was?

I mean, yeah, yeah, of course there is willing suspension of disbelief involved in all this, but thing is Superman at the end of the day is himself just another vigilante in spandex (though unlike Batman I'm thinking he has been officially deputized or something, I'm not that firm in his lore). He can fight crime as long as he can trust that the justice system then does its thing with the bad guys he's stopped from doing their thing. But people like Lex Luthor are essentially untouchable even in Metropolis and Gotham has a significantly higher density of corrupt officials who aren't as actively evil and powerful in their own right, but who keep the city rotten. And certainly even if Superman manages to bring some in, they will just get replaced (which is why so many Batman rogues kinda have point that it's necessary to burn the whole damn city down and start over).

... and now that I'm thinking about it, we are now at a point where it really doesn't make much of a difference whether Superman or Batman goes after these guys. Superman has his hearing which sure simplifies things, but remember that Batman also has been described as a Sherlock Holmes level detective for whom gathering incriminatory evidence should be child's play. And unlike hard evidence, Superman can hardly accuse people in court with just his hearsay, can he?

[Soylent Brown]

Which is why Superman is a massive fucking cretin. He should melt Lex Luther into a big puddle and have done with him.

[Toth]

Just now, Soylent Brown said:

Which is why Superman is a massive fucking cretin. He should melt Lex Luther into a big puddle and have done with him.

Oh yeah, Justice Lord Superman. That timeline went amazing. XD

[Soylent Brown]

5 minutes ago, Toth said:

Oh yeah, Justice Lord Superman. That timeline went amazing. XD

Is it better that he leaves Luther to directly and indirectly kill any number of people? As I say, the whole thing is utterly stupid. That's the problem with Superman - he's way to powerful for most storylines to make any sense.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, divica said:

by that logic there would be no crime in the world. Supes would ear people planing crimes and stop them...

...yes?

I mean, given the power that Batman and Superman both present there really shouldn't be any low-level crime worth a damn. 

[WarGalley]

4 hours ago, mormont said:

The idea that Superman could easily fix Gotham is somewhat undermined by the demonstrable fact that he can't fix Metropolis.

Well the Gotham criminals come out at night when Superman is sleeping.

... Superman needs to sleep right?

[RumHam]

33 minutes ago, WarGalley said:

Well the Gotham criminals come out at night when Superman is sleeping.

... Superman needs to sleep right?

Well he does get his power from the sun, right? So it stands to reason at night you'd have to call the Nightman.