Shadow and Bone - Netflix - April

[Ran]

1 minute ago, divica said:

Even if that is true most of the main cast is constantly reacting over the top. Alina and mal seem obecessed over each other instead of in love...

While I find the voice overs overwrought, the fact that they are basically inseparable and have gone out of their way to stick together is I think perfectly understandable. They're basically like siblings who've grown up with no one else in the world to trust but one another, and will do anything to stay together.

I think the show could have dropped the voice overs and given us more incidents from their past of suffering bullying, of protecting one another and fighting side by side, etc. to show why that bond between them is so strong. I liked the few flashbacks we had.

 

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

While I find the voice overs overwrought, the fact that they are basically inseparable and have gone out of their way to stick together is I think perfectly understandable. They're basically like siblings who've grown up with no one else in the world to trust but one another, and will do anything to stay together.

I think the show could have dropped the voice overs and given us more incidents from their past of suffering bullying, of protecting one another and fighting side by side, etc. to show why that bond between them is so strong. I liked the few flashbacks we had.

 

It just makes it really hard not to root for the darkling who seems the most normal person in that entire world. Sad that at the end he also turned out to be cray cray.

[Werthead]

Finished the season now. It was solid, with lots of ropey moments, unnecessary divergences (the Matthias/Nina storyline could have been ejected with no issue; they were also the weakest actors in the cast, possibly in Nina's case from not being able to use her natural accent; the bit where she used her native Irish accent was her best scene), awfully over-digitised CGI (I don't think the WoT effects team have anything to worry about at all, based on what we've heard) and an inability to fully escape from the "Netflix house style," though they did try, and absolutely no sense of scale whatsoever (Ravka, I gather, is about three miles across, maybe five with the bits beyond the Fold). Also, totally indifferent music and, oddly for Netflix, not even an attempt at any type of title sequence. Brief title cards to allow more time for action are so 2007 and unnecessary in this post-advertisement world. 

Ranged against that was a likeable cast, reasonable pacing, some great costume and set design, and a much-improved story and characterisation over the book. Certainly one of those adaptations which is much more enjoyable than the source material.

I'd watch a second season, but I wouldn't mourn too much if it didn't happen.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Werthead

[Teng Ai Hui]

I liked this series, but I haven't watched a lot of the other series created by Netflix.  What are the typical characteristics of a Netflix series?

[Werthead]

11 hours ago, Teng Ai Hui said:

I liked this series, but I haven't watched a lot of the other series created by Netflix.  What are the typical characteristics of a Netflix series?

I'd say a sense of "expensive cheapness" is the primary hallmark of a Netflix show, where they've clearly spent a lot of money on certain things (usually the sets and costumes) and completely cheaped out on others (usually action choreography and script revisionism). A lot of Netflix shows feel like a CW show with four times the budget but still that cheerful cheapness shining through (both Shadow and Bone and The Witcher have this feeling in droves). It's how the first season of The Witcher had a higher budget and more CGI creatures than the first season of Game of Thrones, but the first season of Game of Thrones felt more expensive and weightier, for lack of a better word.

There's also a distinct lack of oversight in Netflix shows. Whilst it's great that once a show is in production, the suits don't interfere (whilst they still interfere a lot in development, as Avatar: The Last Airbender can attest), it sometimes feels like they need to, and put quality control more at the forefront. HBO still have that sense of quality control and so does Amazon, pausing production here and there to look at completed episodes and advising on reshoots, and what's working and what isn't, whilst Netflix just seems to blast through. Surprisingly few Netflix shows have a really distinct tone and atmosphere that's their own (Russian Doll was a recent, very welcome exception to that).

[kairparavel]

I really enjoyed it, even if it felt crammed and rushed in spots. The casting was perfect and the costumes gorgeous (and I very much want a kefta now). During the last episode I cheered during two big books lines.

I might have spent too much time wondering about Kaz and Co.

Spoiler

getting back to Ketterdam but am ultimately pleased with how it all worked out.

I do hope a certain privateer is well-cast for the (much expected) second season. 

In closing, Ben Barnes.

<dreamy sigh>

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

23 hours ago, Werthead said:

I'd say a sense of "expensive cheapness" is the primary hallmark of a Netflix show, where they've clearly spent a lot of money on certain things (usually the sets and costumes) and completely cheaped out on others (usually action choreography and script revisionism). A lot of Netflix shows feel like a CW show with four times the budget but still that cheerful cheapness shining through (both Shadow and Bone and The Witcher have this feeling in droves). It's how the first season of The Witcher had a higher budget and more CGI creatures than the first season of Game of Thrones, but the first season of Game of Thrones felt more expensive and weightier, for lack of a better word.

There's also a distinct lack of oversight in Netflix shows. Whilst it's great that once a show is in production, the suits don't interfere (whilst they still interfere a lot in development, as Avatar: The Last Airbender can attest), it sometimes feels like they need to, and put quality control more at the forefront. HBO still have that sense of quality control and so does Amazon, pausing production here and there to look at completed episodes and advising on reshoots, and what's working and what isn't, whilst Netflix just seems to blast through. Surprisingly few Netflix shows have a really distinct tone and atmosphere that's their own (Russian Doll was a recent, very welcome exception to that).

I agree with all of this although it also depends on the showrunner.  I urge you to watch Godless, one of the finest western shows and certainly the best one on netflix. The same showrunner also made The Queens Gambit and both shows have a very real lived in feel that other Netflix productions simply can’t match.

But yeah, I got the same feeling with GoT vs this show as well... For all of GoT’s flaws, the production values always been flawless and got a very realistic scale and feel to it , much better than this show gave. Typical HBO quality of production and world building...

[Arakan]

On 4/24/2021 at 5:58 PM, polishgenius said:

 

There's been some chat on twitter about mishandling of the diversification of the cast. So far it seems to be a minority of voices (although one lady I respect is in agreement) but.... I've neither read nor seen it yet so I can't comment on the specifics, but one quote by Bardugho herself from the article linked leapt out as bothersome:

 

 

 

Don't use racism as story-spice please. Especially using racism against people who are not you as enritchment for your escapism. It really does run the risk of making it less escapist for the people you claim to be trying to give more representation, which is what appears to have happened here.

The whole story is racist in its fundamental conception. I get very strong „mother Russia makes you strong“ vibes. I hope one day Americans can leave that shit behind. 

[karaddin]

I don't understand that criticism at all, none of the negatives associated with Ravka are remotely connected to its aesthetic and climate drawing on Russia rather than other European countries. Nationalism, xenophobia, racism, other demonization of the Other, and incompetent or corrupt leaders are all issues that rear their head everywhere. Ravka itself isn't bad, its just a country.

[HexMachina]

On 4/26/2021 at 5:33 PM, SpaceChampion said:

My only complaint is they didn't clearly make the goat that helps Mal escape to be Milo the goat from the train crossing.  Is it the same?  My head canon is that Milo is another amplifier, more powerful than that Stag with the death wish.

 

I didn't really understand why Milo was needed for that first crossing. Did I miss something, other than Milo being used as a comfort goat for Jesper's nerves?

My overall impressions are that this was a decent series and I would definitely watch a second season. As has already been said the casting was very good in general.

I found some parts of the series a bit tedious and felt they didn't add to the story, in particular Nina and Matthias. That seemed to be an awful lot of set up to have Nina on hand to work with Kaz, Inej and Jesper... Assuming, based on comments here, that they are relevant for another storyline down the line I can't see what couldn't be told in two minutes of exposition or flashbacks. Which would have allowed more time to be spent developing other characters in this season.

I also wasn't a fan of Mal. I think it was the way the character was written, but he just felt like a complete waste of space and everything he tried to do just seemed to make things worse. Him and his two forgettable friends searching for the stag was a bit of a bore and I just wanted to skip over it. I did buy the connection between him and Alina though.

I agree some things were rushed. The political side of things in particular felt very rushed and glossed over until episode 7 when suddenly surprise, they were plotting against the King all along! I also felt like we could have done with a lot more time spent on the Grisha, on Baghra, and the goings on of the Little Palace.

The crows were my favourite part of this without a doubt. Kaz, Inej and Jesper were a joy whenever they were on screen and I found myself wanting more of them than we got. There were a couple of instances where the writing was a bit sloppy (I think Ran mentioned Inej killing the brother, the sister knowing that somehow, and Inej very rapidly overcoming her no kill rule as one example) but overall they were great fun.

Ben Barnes was great too.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I didn't really understand why Milo was needed for that first crossing. Did I miss something, other than Milo being used as a comfort goat for Jesper's nerves?

Yeah. It's a bit, basically: you're meant to assume the goat is going to be sacrificed or thrown to the Volcra but it's actually just to keep the passengers from freaking out.

I agree on Nina and Matthias. I assumed that was fleshed out for contractual reasons - to have the actors available they needed to give them more to do.

I really liked Mal: Archie Renaux helped a great deal though. He sold the character well.

I didn't like Kaz, but that's a holdover from the books and not the fault of Freddy Carter. Kaz is just too reminiscent of a character type I've run across in RPGs and fanfic too much. You know, the troubled brooding antihero who can't relate to people, but who the gorgeous girl is secretly in love with, and who is soooooo smart that he can go toe-to-toe with the arch-villain using nothing but his brains. A Gary Stu type.

[Annara Snow]

3 hours ago, mormont said:

 

I didn't like Kaz, but that's a holdover from the books and not the fault of Freddy Carter. Kaz is just too reminiscent of a character type I've run across in RPGs and fanfic too much. You know, the troubled brooding antihero who can't relate to people, but who the gorgeous girl is secretly in love with, and who is soooooo smart that he can go toe-to-toe with the arch-villain using nothing but his brains. A Gary Stu type.

I haven't read the books, but I've just finished the show. And just from the show - this is a criminal with a physical disability, who constantly looks miserable and has a huge problem with showing emotions or maybe even acknowledging he has them and can't admit to a woman that he loves her (he basically ran away rather than admit that he did something huge for Inej - "Why would Heleen get the Crow Club?") - and that's who you consider a Gary Stu?

And here I was, thinking that Gary Stus are characters like James Bond - super hot, super charming action guys who can win any fight, get every woman, or those like Wesley Crusher in early seasons of TNG who have all kinds of unrealistic skills they couldn't have possibly gained at their age/in their circumstances (are, for instance, better at physics than actual phycisists etc.). 

Well, I've learned something: I knew Mary Sue was an incredibly overused and misused term that people like to use for any female main character they dislike when want to justify their dislike but don't have any real substantial arguments other than "she's too smart/too capable/some character likes her/this one character I find super hot is into them and that bugs me", no matter how much it doesn't make sense if we look at what the term was originally meant to mean. Now I know it's not just done with female characters.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Annara Snow

[Ran]

I'm not sure I'd consider him a Gary Stu in the traditional sense, but TV Tropes says this:

Quote

All Girls Want Bad Boys: Inej and the other girls at the Menagerie all think that Kaz, the Bastard of the Barrel, is hot.

Which is rather Gary Stu-ish.

What I liked about the show's depiction of Kaz's brilliance is that for the most part they gave us exactly the same clues to realize things, so it genuinely felt like he was just very sharp. One might contrast this to some of the later Sherlock episodes which became incredibly obfuscatory and often even nonsensical to pull off whatever they wanted Sherlock to pull off, which isn't really playing "fair" but I suppose they were beyond doing that at that point.

[Annara Snow]

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

I'm not sure I'd consider him a Gary Stu in the traditional sense, but TV Tropes says this:

Which is rather Gary Stu-ish.

What I liked about the show's depiction of Kaz's brilliance is that for the most part they gave us exactly the same clues to realize things, so it genuinely felt like he was just very sharp. One might contrast this to some of the later Sherlock episodes which became incredibly obfuscatory and often even nonsensical to pull off whatever they wanted Sherlock to pull off, which isn't really playing "fair" but I suppose they were beyond doing that at that point.

We don't see how any of the other girls in the Menagerie feel about Kaz in the show. So all I'm getting here is "he's smart and this hot woman he's secretly in love with is also secretly in love with him and I don't like it - so he's Gary Stu!"

But generally, "this character is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu because people/more than one character finds them attractive" is one of the weakest Mary Sue arguments.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Annara Snow

[Ran]

Just now, Annara Snow said:

We don't see how any of the other girls in the Menagerie feel about Kaz in the show. 

Mormont did say that his reaction was largely due to the novels, not the show or the actor, so dismissing that side of what he said is side-stepping his point. I haven't read the books either, so I basically can't say much about it beyond what things like TV Tropes and others say. I wouldn't call him a Gary Stu from what I've heard, but then again a quick Google finds several reviewers of the novels calling him just that. Whether it's mis-applied or just a broader usage than either of us are used to, it's definitely a thing among some readers.

 

 

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

I haven't read the books, but I've just finished the show. And just from the show - this is a criminal with a physical disability, who constantly looks miserable and has a huge problem with showing emotions or maybe even acknowledging he has them and can't admit to a woman that he loves her (he basically ran away rather than admit that he did something huge for Inej - "Why would Heleen get the Crow Club?") - and that's who you consider a Gary Stu?

I mean, that's fair. He's not a generic wish-fulfilment figure. Let's put aside the physical disability, because the show does take pains (excuse me) to show that and I know Leigh comes at that from the POV of someone with a disability.

The emotional side of things, though, yeah, you do see that a lot in author insert characters in fanfic or RPGs. As I said above, it's the idea that the character's social ineptitude and sadness is down to how nobody understands them, except for the object of their (hidden) affections who can see past their facade to the truth of the sensitive soul underneath. The wish fulfilment here is obvious: it's not that I have no social skills, it's everyone else who is too insensitive to realise my true awesomeness! Shit, I was the same myself when I was fifteen. So I think it's one of those things where I roll my eyes a little bit, but at the same time, it's not for me. That doesn't make it bad. It appeals to other folks, and that's fine.

[Annara Snow]

3 minutes ago, mormont said:

I mean, that's fair. He's not a generic wish-fulfilment figure. Let's put aside the physical disability, because the show does take pains (excuse me) to show that and I know Leigh comes at that from the POV of someone with a disability.

The emotional side of things, though, yeah, you do see that a lot in author insert characters in fanfic or RPGs. As I said above, it's the idea that the character's social ineptitude and sadness is down to how nobody understands them, except for the object of their (hidden) affections who can see past their facade to the truth of the sensitive soul underneath. The wish fulfilment here is obvious: it's not that I have no social skills, it's everyone else who is too insensitive to realise my true awesomeness! Shit, I was the same myself when I was fifteen. So I think it's one of those things where I roll my eyes a little bit, but at the same time, it's not for me. That doesn't make it bad. It appeals to other folks, and that's fine.

That's just a character type/trope. Every character falls into one. Nina and Mathias = Enemies to Lovers, two people from opposing camps coming together. Alina = the Chosen One. Mal and Alina = Best friends to lovers, "you are my true north", "together" - I've seen and read these exact lines in other stories. The Crows are lovable rogues/criminals. The Darkling - villain with a tragic past,  the older powerful man/supernatura; being seducing/ manipuating/kidnapping/stalking, etc. etc.

Tropes are used in stories for a reason - because they work. And characters and relationships being written in such a way that the audiences will be drawn in and relate and/or root for them, is a weird thing to complain about.

And anyway, that doesn't make a character a Mary Sue/Gary Stu

This is a Gary Stu (yes, of course this is an intentional parody, but there aren't actually many Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters in canon, especially compared to the number of characters who get called that, so it's harder to find a real example that's not from fanfic).

 

[mormont]

I mean, yes, it's a trope, and like everyone some tropes annoy me and some I am fine with.

[Fury Resurrected]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

I'm not sure I'd consider him a Gary Stu in the traditional sense, but TV Tropes says this:

Which is rather Gary Stu-ish.

What I liked about the show's depiction of Kaz's brilliance is that for the most part they gave us exactly the same clues to realize things, so it genuinely felt like he was just very sharp. One might contrast this to some of the later Sherlock episodes which became incredibly obfuscatory and often even nonsensical to pull off whatever they wanted Sherlock to pull off, which isn't really playing "fair" but I suppose they were beyond doing that at that point.

I don’t necessarily disagree, but for what it’s worth- Kaz *is* hot, in my opinion. He’s played by an actor of a physical type I am into (very pale, skinny, weird, cheekbones). He’s dressed very well. Frankly, this show is brimming with eye candy for male attracted people.

[mormont]

18 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I don’t necessarily disagree, but for what it’s worth- Kaz *is* hot, in my opinion. He’s played by an actor of a physical type I am into (very pale, skinny, weird, cheekbones). He’s dressed very well. Frankly, this show is brimming with eye candy for male attracted people.

I mean, I am not male-attracted but even so it's undeniable. Ben Barnes is a handsome man, and Archie Renaux, Julian Kostov, Kit Young, these are all attractive people.

It's fine though. I have Amita Suman to look at.