Opinions on the dragons?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Now this topic has been tangentially discussed quite a lot these past few days, so what are your opinions about the dragons? Are they dangerous WMDs that need to be put down, or signs of greatness filled with live and vigor? Or more likely somewhere in between. If so, where exactly in between?

Personally I don't have a concrete opinion, as I think GRRM wrote himself quite badly into a corner on this one, where on one side the parallels to the US and nukes are obvious, but on the other hand the dragons will be essential in fighting the Long Night. And much like GRRM himself, I do not know the answer to this particular conundrum. So, what is your opinion on the dragon?

[Nathan Stark]

I don't think George wrote himself into a corner here at all. The dragons have a dual nature, just like everything else in George's universe. Just like their nuclear counterparts in the real world. Sure, nuclear energy can be a destructive force when used as nuclear weapons. But nuclear energy is also a major source of power that we will probably need to start utilizing more as we abandon fossil fuels. The dragons are similar in how they are not only potential weapons of mass destruction, but also crucial in defeating the looming ice apocalypse.

Ultimately, this is A Song of Ice and Fire. The dragons are a symbol of the fire in the title. Ultimately the point GRRM is driving at is that neither ice nor fire is purely good or bad. The dragons are a defense against an endless winter, but an endless summer would be just as bad. George is interested in balance between the two extremes. The dragons are fire made flesh, while the White Walkers are ice made flesh. Planetos would probably be better off without either the Others or the dragons, but at least they can balance each other out.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

The dragons are a part of nature.  They are part of the natural balance, as are any animal.  There will always be a species which stands above all.  Dragons are that species in A Song of ice and Fire.  Lions would stand at the top without dragons.  Removing those two will put bears at the top.  Dragons are part of life and the ecosystem on Martin's planet.   

[Mad King Bolton]

They're dragons, so as a fan of fantasy, I don't pay attention to any symbolic counterpart in the real world though I'm sure they're there. Like most aspects of the story though, I think they depend on whose point of view you want to look at them though. Personally I see them as animals loyal to Dany but having a place in the natural world with their own motivations to a degree.  I hope to see them kick ass and fight back against the night.  But like all animals, fault of their  actions often lies in their master/parent. How Dany uses them or others will be a part of their fate I'm sure.  I love them and hope they survive and thrive.

[CamiloRP]

I lean heavily towards the nukes side of the spectrum, and I definitely don't think they will help in the Others situation.

[Dracul's Daughter]

5 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I don't think George wrote himself into a corner here at all. The dragons have a dual nature, just like everything else in George's universe. Just like their nuclear counterparts in the real world. Sure, nuclear energy can be a destructive force when used as nuclear weapons. But nuclear energy is also a major source of power that we will probably need to start utilizing more as we abandon fossil fuels. The dragons are similar in how they are not only potential weapons of mass destruction, but also crucial in defeating the looming ice apocalypse.

Ultimately, this is A Song of Ice and Fire. The dragons are a symbol of the fire in the title. Ultimately the point GRRM is driving at is that neither ice nor fire is purely good or bad. The dragons are a defense against an endless winter, but an endless summer would be just as bad. George is interested in balance between the two extremes. The dragons are fire made flesh, while the White Walkers are ice made flesh. Planetos would probably be better off without either the Others or the dragons, but at least they can balance each other out.

I always thought the balance between ice and fire is the key.If you think about it when the ice took over,"The Long Night",it was pushed back and the same with fire (Valyria).

[Dracul's Daughter]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I lean heavily towards the nukes side of the spectrum, and I definitely don't think they will help in the Others situation.

But where would the fantasy/magic meaning of them fit?After all,this is a fantasy story although it has a medieval background.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

But where would the fantasy/magic meaning of them fit?After all,this is a fantasy story although it has a medieval background.

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

[Rose of Red Lake]

“Oh sure, dragons are cool too,” he chuckles. “But maybe not on our doorstep” (x)

[Dracul's Daughter]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

I mean,it's a fantasy story where magic,although it's little used, plays an importan rol so I guess it has to be something more to them then just "nukes".Martin switched pyrokinesis with dragons.Basically he found another way to introduce fire.That's why I think it's not only about "nukes" because if he would have maintained the original idea that comaprison would not exist.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I lean heavily towards the nukes side of the spectrum, and I definitely don't think they will help in the Others situation.

They might be useful when it comes to fighting the wights but I am not so sure that they will be useful against the Others. They definitely are not useful for the humanity during normal times. That’s why I tend to agree with the nukes.

[El Guapo]

The dragons are great and I don't understand at all how anyone thinks that they  are going to not be important against the fight with the Others. 

I will also say if anyone else besides Dany had these weapons than they would be much more popular on this board.  

[CamiloRP]

4 hours ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

I mean,it's a fantasy story where magic,although it's little used, plays an importan rol so I guess it has to be something more to them then just "nukes".Martin switched pyrokinesis with dragons.Basically he found another way to introduce fire.That's why I think it's not only about "nukes" because if he would have maintained the original idea that comaprison would not exist.

I don't think they're a one to one parallel, that's what I said 'I lean towards' rather than 'I think they are.'

I think the magic element is tied in dragons being thought of as wonderful creatures, and bringers of magic. They trick us into thinking they are good. If they where nukes, without any 'flavouring' then the story would be completely different.

Anyhow, they aren't nukes specifically, but rather WMDs in general, they destroy cities and armies in a few moments, but they have other perks, flight in medieval times would be OP on it's own, they're also symbols of power, legitimacy and such. They represent monarchy on it's own, something we think only this special people with their special blood can access to, but from Nettles we know it's a lie, anyone can. 

[CamiloRP]

4 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

They might be useful when it comes to fighting the wights but I am not so sure that they will be useful against the Others. They definitely are not useful for the humanity during normal times. That’s why I tend to agree with the nukes.

I was going for a 'fighting/nukes/genocide it's not the solution to the problem' thing.

[CamiloRP]

27 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

The dragons are great and I don't understand at all how anyone thinks that they  are going to not be important against the fight with the Others. 

If there's a fight with the others then they would be a great help, don't misunderstand me, I just think that fighting isn't the solution, peace is, after all, the series is being written by a big ol' hippy. The same hippy who wrote In The House Of The Worm, a story that (SPOILERS) ends in that way.

 

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I will also say if anyone else besides Dany had these weapons than they would be much more popular on this board.  

Dany is one of my favourite POVs, perhaps even one of my favourite characters, and I like the dragons too, but I don't think they are a force for good, in the same way I can like many king/lord characters and think that them rulling would be awful, or like Arya and disagree with her murdering people.

 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

32 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I was going for a 'fighting/nukes/genocide it's not the solution to the problem' thing.

I concur. Dragons are useful only to those bloodthirsty enough to use them in conquering. I fail to see how the Rhoynar, the slaves of Old Valyria, the people that died during the Targaryens’ conquering of Westeros, the Westerosi that died during the Targaryen’s wars would like them. If I am wrong please someone explain to me why people should be happy that their family died or was enslaved by the dragons.

[El Guapo]

10 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I concur. Dragons are useful only to those bloodthirsty enough to use them in conquering. I fail to see how the Rhoynar, the slaves of Old Valyria, the people that died during the Targaryens’ conquering of Westeros, the Westerosi that died during the Targaryen’s wars. If I am wrong please someone explain to me why people should be happy that their family died or was enslaved by the dragons.

As opposed to the people that died or were enslaved by swords?  Are they happy because atleast their families weren't killed or enslaved by dragons? 

[Dracul's Daughter]

20 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I concur. Dragons are useful only to those bloodthirsty enough to use them in conquering. I fail to see how the Rhoynar, the slaves of Old Valyria, the people that died during the Targaryens’ conquering of Westeros, the Westerosi that died during the Targaryen’s wars would like them. If I am wrong please someone explain to me why people should be happy that their family died or was enslaved by the dragons.

Of course no one is happy that their family is enslaved or murdered no matter who does this,with or without dragons.We saw in Planetos that you don't necesarily need them to enslave,conquer and to ravage a vast amount of land.No to mention dying in someone's war.Ghiscari enslaved and built an empire without dragons.Dothrakis lay places to dust without dragons.Westeros is pretty much a mess now without dragons and many died in the wars of the 5 kings without a Targaryen being there to instigate it.Even before they conquerd Westeros wars were faught.That's the nature of men.Yes,it easier to destroy with dragons and you have an advantage over your adversary if he lacks them but they are not the source of all evil.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

1 minute ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Of course no one is happy that their family is enslaved or murdered no matter who does this,with or without dragons.We saw in Planetos that you don't necesarily need them to enslave,conquer and to ravage a vast amount of land.No to mention dying in someone's war.Ghiscari enslaved and built an empire without dragons.Dothrakis lay places to dust without dragons.Westeros is pretty much a mess now without dragons and many died in the wars of the 5 kings without a Targaryen being there to instigate it.Even before they conquerd Westeros wars were faught.That's the nature of men.Yes,it easier to destroy with dragons and you have an advantage over your adversary if he lacks them but they are not the source of all evil.

Sure wars can happen without the dragons too, that is neither here nor there. Nukes are not the source of evil but that doesn’t mean that they are not harmful. I don’t see how the dragons are beneficial to anyone other than their owner, sometimes they are not beneficial for their owners either.

[El Guapo]

51 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

If there's a fight with the others then they would be a great help, don't misunderstand me, I just think that fighting isn't the solution, peace is, after all, the series is being written by a big ol' hippy. The same hippy who wrote In The House Of The Worm, a story that (SPOILERS) ends in that way.

 

Dany is one of my favourite POVs, perhaps even one of my favourite characters, and I like the dragons too, but I don't think they are a force for good, in the same way I can like many king/lord characters and think that them rulling would be awful, or like Arya and disagree with her murdering people.

 

I see. So after building up this conflict with the Others for 5 books and counting when we finally get to the point that the war is about to start both sides are going to say oh forget let just hug it out?  I find that highly unlikely.  There will be  a war.  The only question is how long it will last and how bloody it will get before both sides decide that they have had enough.