Opinions on the dragons?

[Dracul's Daughter]

2 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Sure wars can happen without the dragons too, that is neither here nor there. Nukes are not the source of evil but that doesn’t mean that they are not harmful. I don’t see how the dragons are beneficial to anyone other than their owner, sometimes they are not beneficial for their owners either.

They can help in fighting The Others for example and fight the Masters in Slaver's Bay to try making a free society.That would not benefit only Dany,would it?

 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

Just now, Dracul's Daughter said:

They can help in fighting The Others for example and fight the Masters in Slaver's Bay to try making a free society.That would not benefit only Dany,would it?

They can fight the wights we have nothing to say the same about the Others. Seeing the mess Dany has created in Slaver’s Bay, to the point that people sell themselves back to slavery, it makes you wonder if they were that beneficial. Of course the current state of Slavers Bay may have more to do with Dany’s inability to rule than the dragons themselves.

[El Guapo]

9 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

They can fight the wights we have nothing to say the same about the Others. Seeing the mess Dany has created in Slaver’s Bay, to the point that people sell themselves back to slavery, it makes you wonder if they were that beneficial. Of course the current state of Slavers Bay may have more to do with Dany’s inability to rule than the dragons themselves.

Ah yes, Dany hate is not complete without a defense of Slavers Bay. I mean because a few house slaves decided they were better off being house slaves  than being free lets just ignore the thousands of ex-slaves whose lives are much better off. You know the ones who are whipped daily and whose children were taken away so they can be rolled in honey to get eaten by bears for the amusement of the masses.  Or maybe those slave mothers whose babies were ripped away  and killed in front of them by the  unsullied during their training. Yep surely they would be better off if Dany didn't arrive with her dragons.

and btw, this is the same kind of crap argument used during the south following the civil war so congrats.

[Dracul's Daughter]

28 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

They can fight the wights we have nothing to say the same about the Others. Seeing the mess Dany has created in Slaver’s Bay, to the point that people sell themselves back to slavery, it makes you wonder if they were that beneficial. Of course the current state of Slavers Bay may have more to do with Dany’s inability to rule than the dragons themselves.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the fire kept The Others at bay too when Sam and his other Night's Watch brothers ran from The Fist of the First Man?And I wonder,if dragonglass,which (correct me again if I'm wrong) is a volcanic glass (fire made glass),why a dragon wouldn't help?

I don't wholly agree with the second part of your statement.Yes,Dany has a lot more to learn.She didn't have anyone to teach her how this things work.She learns it as she goes but the primal reason of the current state there are the masters.Yunkay attacked Astapor and drove the people there at Meereen's gate,a lot of them being sick with the bloody flux.They burned the little sustain Meereen had and blocked the other sources to obtain it.Dany was forced to make peace as she had an enemy inside the walls (The Sons of the Harpy) and outside (Yunkai).That peace tied her hands to help Astapor and allowed a new slave trade marked to be opened outside Meereen's gates but most important,Volantis simply wants her dead because it suits to the Old Blood to extinguis the flame that has started a revolution amongst their slaves.For a free society to exist in Slaver's Bay,the masters must go because both things are incompatible.Anyhow,Dany has still some things to do there so it's a little too soon to talk if her campain is a success or a mess 

[Rose of Red Lake]

23 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Ah yes, Dany hate is not complete without a defense of Slavers Bay. I mean because a few house slaves decided they were better off being house slaves  than being free lets just ignore the thousands of ex-slaves whose lives are much better off. You know the ones who are whipped daily and whose children were taken away so they can be rolled in honey to get eaten by bears for the amusement of the masses.  Or maybe those slave mothers whose babies were ripped away  and killed in front of them by the  unsullied during their training. Yep surely they would be better off if Dany didn't arrive with her dragons.

and btw, this is the same kind of crap argument used during the south following the civil war so congrats.

Using dragons won't result in good laws, prosperity, help her rule, establish peace. It's like baked in to the narrative that if she uses them she will fail. See here?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

2 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the fire kept The Others at bay too when Sam and his other Night's Watch brothers ran from The Fist of the First Man?And I wonder,if dragonglass,which (corrcet me again if I'm wrong) is a volcanic glass (fire made glass),why a dragon wouldn't help?

Keep them at bay doesn't mean kill them. Dragonglass is the product of balance between fire and the rest of nature.  I am one of those who believe that balance is what will beat the Others.

5 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Anyhow,Dany has still some things to do there so it's a little to soon to talk if her campain is a succeess or a mess 

How many people have to die for Dany to learn how to rule? Especially when Dany chose to be wilfully ignorant to any kind of advice like she said she is the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach her lessons. In Slaver's Bay campaign I support what Andrzej Sapkowski said at The Last Wish

Quote

“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all.”

Both Masters’ actions and Dany’s actions are evil in different degrees and I choose not to support either of them.

[El Guapo]

6 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Keep them at bay doesn't mean kill them. Dragonglass is the product of balance between fire and the rest of nature.  I am one of those who believe that balance is what will beat the Others.

How many people have to die for Dany to learn how to rule? Especially when Dany chose to be wilfully ignorant to any kind of advice like she said she is the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach her lessons. In Slaver's Bay campaign I support what Andrzej Sapkowski said at The Last Wish

Both Masters’ actions and Dany’s actions are evil in different degrees and I choose not to support either of them.

Ah. So you think she should have taken Daario's advice and invited all of the great masters to the wedding and then murder them all ala Walder Frey and the Red Wedding.  Interesting.

[Eltharion21]

I like dragons , they are magnificent creatures that deserve to exist and be free, Targaryens not so much - men aren't meant to wield such power.

There is wonderful animated movie - "The Flight of Dragons"  that I watched as a kid that deals with discord between world of fading magic and  logic.

 

[Dracul's Daughter]

30 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

How many people have to die for Dany to learn how to rule? Especially when Dany chose to be wilfully ignorant to any kind of advice

And what advices are those if I may ask?(that she does not listen)

 

30 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

like she said she is the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach her lessons.

This is a quote from where she was talking to Daario and she tells him about her marriage with Hizdar in order to bring peace.An advice she DID LISTEN (making your point "to be wilfully ignorant to any kind of advice" false) from the Green Grace.Daario then propose her to pull a Red Wedding 2.0 on the Masters and when she refuses him (being shocked of his advice) he basically tells her that this wedding will make her a baby pomping machine for Hizdar and a 0 to his side.She then gets pissed off and tells him what you basically drove out of context meaning to fuck off.

30 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

In Slaver's Bay campaign I support what Andrzej Sapkowski said at The Last Wish

Quote

“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all.”

Both Masters’ actions and Dany’s actions are evil in different degrees and I choose not to support either of them.

Innaction also has consequences.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

6 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

DID LISTEN from the Green Grace

You do know that Green Grace is the Harpy right? 

7 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Innaction also has consequences.

Yes it does, but it isn't evil.

[Dracul's Daughter]

25 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

You do know that Green Grace is the Harpy right? 

Yes,she may be but you said that Dany does not listen to ANY advice which is false and btw,she listens to more people,not only the Green Greace.

 

25 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Yes it does, but it isn't evil.

If with your action,although you get your hands dirty,can avoid more suffering,avoiding to make a decision just to keep your hands clean is wrong and selfish.

[Dracul's Daughter]

@Lilac & Gooseberries This is the scene and context that phraze you mentioned is said :

"Tell me of your journey."

He gave a careless shrug. "The Yunkai'i sent some hired swords to close the Khyzai Pass. The Long Lances, they name themselves. We descended on them in the night and sent a few to hell. In Lhazar I slew two of my own serjeants for plotting to steal the gems and gold plate my queen had entrusted to me as gifts for the Lamb Men. Elsewise, all went as I had promised."

"How many men did you lose in the fighting?"

"Nine," said Daario, "but a dozen of the Long Lances decided they would sooner be Stormcrows than corpses, so we came out three ahead. I told them they would live longer fighting with your dragons than against them, and they saw the wisdom in my words."

That made her wary. "They might be spying for Yunkai."

"They are too stupid to be spies. You do not know them."

"Neither do you. Do you trust them?"

"I trust all my men. Just as far as I can spit." He spat out a seed and smiled at her suspicions. "Shall I bring their heads to you? I will, if you command it. One is bald and two have braids and one dyes his beard four different colors. What spy would wear such a beard, I ask you? The slinger can put a stone through a gnat's eye at forty paces, and the ugly one has a way with horses, but if my queen says that they must die ..."

"I did not say that. I only ... see that you keep your eye on them, that's all." She felt foolish saying it. She always felt a little foolish when she was with Daario. Gawky and girlish and slow-witted. What must he think of me? She changed the subject. "Will the Lamb Men send us food?"

"Grain will come down the Skahazadhan by barge, my queen, and other goods by caravan over the Khyzai."

"Not the Skahazadhan. The river has been closed to us. The seas as well. You will have seen the ships out in the bay. The Qartheen have driven off a third of our fishing fleet and seized another third. The others are too frightened to leave port. What little trade we still had has been cut off."

Daario tossed away the pear stem. "Qartheen have milk in their veins. Let them see your dragons, and they'll run."

Dany did not want to talk about the dragons. Farmers still came to her court with burned bones, complaining of missing sheep, though Drogon had not returned to the city. Some reported seeing him north of the river, above the grass of the Dothraki sea. Down in the pit, Viserion had snapped one of his chains; he and Rhaegal grew more savage every day. Once the iron doors had glowed red-hot, her Unsullied told her, and no one dared to touch them for a day. "Astapor is under siege as well."

"This I knew. One of the Long Lances lived long enough to tell us that men were eating one another in the Red City. He said Meereen's turn would come soon, so I cut his tongue out and fed it to a yellow dog. No dog will eat a liar's tongue. When the yellow dog ate his, I knew he spoke the truth."

"I have war inside the city too." She told him of the Harpy's Sons and the Brazen Beasts, of blood upon the bricks. "My enemies are all around me, within the city and without."

"Attack," he said at once. "A man surrounded by foes cannot defend himself. Try, and the axe will take you in the back whilst you are parrying the sword. No. When faced with many enemies, choose the weakest, kill him, ride over him, and escape."

"Where should I escape to?"

"Into my bed. Into my arms. Into my heart." The hilts of Daario's arakh and stiletto were wrought in the shape of golden women, naked and wanton. He brushed his thumbs across them in a way that was remarkably obscene and smiled a wicked smile.

Dany felt blood rushing to her face. It was almost as if he were caressing her. Would he think me wanton too if I pulled him into bed? He made her want to be his wanton. I should never see him alone. He is too dangerous to have near me. "The Green Grace says that I must take a Ghiscari king," she said, flustered. "She urges me to wed the noble Hizdahr zo Loraq."

"That one?" Daario chuckled. "Why not Grey Worm, if you want a eunuch in your bed? Do you want a king?"

I want you. "I want peace. I gave Hizdahr ninety days to end the killings. If he does, I will take him for a husband."

"Take me for your husband. I will do it in nine."

You know I cannot do that, she almost said. "You are fighting shadows when you should be fighting the men who cast them," Daario went on. "Kill them all and take their treasures, I say. Whisper the command, and your Daario will make you a pile of their heads taller than this pyramid."

"If I knew who they were-"

"Zhak and Pahl and Merreq. Them, and all the rest. The Great Masters. Who else would it be?"

He is as bold as he is bloody. "We have no proof this is their work. Would you have me slaughter my own subjects?"

"Your own subjects would gladly slaughter you."

He had been so long away, Dany had almost forgotten what he was. Sellswords were treacherous by nature, she reminded herself. Fickle, faithless, brutal. He will never be more than he is. He will never be the stuff of kings. "The pyramids are strong," she explained to him. "We could take them only at great cost. The moment we attack one the others will rise against us."

"Then winkle them out of their pyramids on some pretext. A wedding might serve. Why not? Promise your hand to Hizdahr and all the Great Masters will come to see you married. When they gather in the Temple of the Graces, turn us loose upon them."

Dany was appalled. He is a monster. A gallant monster, but a monster still. "Do you take me for the Butcher King?"

"Better the butcher than the meat. All kings are butchers. Are queens so different?"

"This queen is."

Daario shrugged. "Most queens have no purpose but to warm some king's bed and pop out sons for him. If that's the sort of queen you mean to be, best marry Hizdahr."

Her anger flashed. "Have you forgotten who I am?"

"No. Have you?"

Viserys would have his head off for that insolence. "I am the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach me lessons." When Dany stood, the lion pelt slipped from her shoulders and tumbled to the ground. "Leave me."

Daario gave her a sweeping bow. "I live to obey."

When he was gone, Daenerys called Ser Barristan back. "I want the Stormcrows back in the field."

"Your Grace? They have only now returned ..."

"I want them gone. Let them scout the Yunkish hinterlands and give protection to any caravans coming over the Khyzai Pass. Henceforth Daario shall make his reports to you. Give him every honor that is due him and see that his men are well paid, but on no account admit him to my presence."

"As you say, Your Grace."

                 "A Dance With Dragons" - Daenerys IV , Chapter 23

And as you see,it does not show she is not willing to take any advice.

[Wall Flower]

12 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

You do know that Green Grace is the Harpy right? 

Yes it does, but it isn't evil.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. (Apparently the original quote was by John Stuart Mill - Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends than that good men should look on and do nothing). 

Dany has made mistakes and has to bear responsibility for the consequences of those mistakes but she also saw what was going on in Slaver's Bay and could not look on and do nothing.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

24 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Yes,she may be but you said the Dany does not listen to ANY advice which is false and btw,she listen to more people,not only the Green Greace.

When she listens to an advice is by her enemy. She is played like a fiddle by the Harpy.

24 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

If with your action,although you get your hands dirty,can avoid more suffering,avoiding making a decision just to keep your hands clean is wrong and selfish.

It may very well be, but I prefer not to act without a plan when my actions make people suffer. Dany’s actions were beneficial for some and harmful for others. I see no reason why I should support the well being of some people and the suffering of others and vice versa. She should had made a plan and learn before start ruling and conquering. Using the nukes you have before making a plan or learn how to rule is ignorant at best.   

9 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

And as you see,it does not show she is not willing to take any advice.

She chose not to listen when Barristan try to explains her about Eddard and she continues about the ususrper's dogs idiocity. She chose not to learn the truth.

[Dracul's Daughter]

38 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

When she listens to an advice is by her enemy. She is played like a fiddle by the Harpy.

She does not know who The Harpy is and honestly,neither we do.We have no confirmation and she chooses to listen her because she wants peace.You know,no more blood shed,the thing a good willing person wants.

 

38 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

It may very well be, but I prefer not to act without a plan when my actions make people suffer. Dany’s actions were beneficial for some and harmful for others. I see no reason why I should support the well being of some people and the suffering of others and verse versa. She should had made a plan and learn before start ruling and conquering. Using the nukes you have before making a plan or learn how to rule is ignorant at best.   

It depends on whom you want to help : slaves or slavers and because she did not use her nukes and did not want to be a butcher (as you can see in the part I quoted in my previous reply) she did not get rid of the enemy inside Meereen so she could help Astapor and as Daario said to make Yunkai's army run at the sight of her dragons.Basically she learned that you can not make a just agreement between masters and slaves because the latters will be always below.The Masters will not willfully,peacefully renounce their position when all they have to do is kill one person who does not use her best asset against them and is willing to fight one hand tied behind her back because she has more power.
 

38 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

She chose not to listen when Barristan try to explains her about Eddard and she continues about the ususrper's dogs idiocity. She chose not to learn the truth.

She is willing to learn the bad things about her father ( "One day. One day you must tell me all. The good and the bad.") and chose not to listen to Barristan ONCE because she just learned about Jorah's betrail and she didn't want to feel more saddend.Honestly now,from her perspective,do you really think she will have worm feelings about the man who was besties with the one who drove her family to almost extinction?

[The Hoare]

Dragons are the worst part of the books. They give way too much advantage for anyone that owns them

[Dracul's Daughter]

10 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Dragons are the worst part of the books. They give way too much advantage for anyone that owns them

What if 3 people could use them?

[Dracul's Daughter]

1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Dragonglass is the product of balance between fire and the rest of nature.

Proof?

[Dracul's Daughter]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Using dragons won't result in good laws, prosperity, help her rule, establish peace. It's like baked in to the narrative that if she uses them she will fail. See here?

But using them to get rid of the masters could help to establish a free society whom can prosper just like Braavos did,you know?And if she is doomed to fail if she uses them then what is their purpose?What is she supposed do to with them other that just flying them around and make vain threats,which eventually will have no effect on her enemies?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

30 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

She does not know who The Harpy is and honestly,neither we do.We have no confirmation and she chooses to listen her because she wants peace.You know,no more blood shed,the thing a good willing person wants.

Wanting peace is great but being played by her enemy because she wasn’t politically smart enough is not an excuse for someone who chose to rule.

30 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

It depends on whom you want to help : slaves or slavers and because she did not use her nukes and did not want to be a butcher (as you can see in the part I quoted in my previous reply) she did not get rid of the enemy inside Meereen so she could help Astapor and as Daario said to make Yunkai's army run at the sight of her dragons.Basically she learned that you can not make a just agreement between masters and slaves because the latters will be always below.The Masters will not willfully,peacefully renounce their position when all they have to do is kill one person who does not use her best asset against them and is willing to fight one hand tied behind her back because she has more power.

She may had good intentions but she used evil means to do that. Those young girls she had ordered to be tortured, those 12 years old wearing tokars she has ordered to be killed are evil deeds. What she decided latter is neither here nor there, their blood is on her hands and I chose not to support someone who first acts and then thinks or even worse acts because she is angry while she knows that her acts are evil. Evil is evil.

30 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

She is willing to learn the bad things about her father and chose not to listen to Barristan ONCE because she had a lot going on in Meereen.You know,her people being slaughtered,the bloody flux and stuff and honestly now,from her perspective,do you really think she will have worm feelings about the man who was besties with the one who drove her family to almost extinction?

Again she had to deal with all those stuff because she chose to act without a plan. The situation she is in is made by her own choice. She had the choice to learn, make a plan and then conquer and rule. She instead chose to conquer, rule and at the very end plan and try to learn.

5 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Proof?

Dragonglass is obsidian. Obsidian is made when fire is combined with earth forms lava and then the cold air cools it down. All of the elements combined.

2 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

But using them to get rid of the masters could help to establish a free society whom can prosper just like Braavos did,you know?

She doesn’t establish freedom. She just changes the head of the hierarchy and puts herself on top. If anything she is closer to a usurper than a liberator.